I don’t agree with William Cheung but I do acknowledge that when he was in his prime, he dropped many an opponent. His name is still legendary. I’ve heard from those who have seen his fights first-hand and I don’t doubt his skill as a fighter. However, that doesn’t mean I agree with his approach. But then again Wong Shun Leung had terrible form 
HERE IS THE ANSWER TO IT ALL:
Gong sau - Talking hands
= CAN YOU DO IT? DOES YOUR TEKNIQUE REALLY WORK IN A REAL LIFE SITUATION? DO YOU HAVE THE GUTS?
If Mr.Cheung can make his wing chun work 10/10 against any opponent, does it help improveing your skills? If u can make his tan sau work for you 10/10 on the street…now thats good, if not..its not good. Simple.
Beleive in the system and know that it has no limits as limits are only an created by the mind or the teachers mind.
The most important thing is: How good are your own standard.
Less is more
Short is long
Slow is fast
This is the key to all understanding.
- Lao Tzu
Can you use your art?
Yuan Fen. to answer your question.
William Cheung started Wing Chun at 10 years old part time. At 14 years old he trained full time. Yes, he left Hong Kong at 18 years old. He lived with Yip Man for 3 or 4 years. If you were trying to say that age was a factor in his ability to use his Wing Chun then you must know that on his way from Hong Kong to Australia, he was attacked by 10 or 15 ‘grown’ men armed to the teeth with edged weapons, and fought them effectivley. My point is that since the 70’s when I started WC I’ve seen the bickering inherent in our style. But the bottom line is, WC is a fighting art. I don’t care if William Cheung learned WC from an alien, or made it up himself. It works. I don’t see ANY other of the WC styles that have the fighting theories, techniques, and principles I’ve learned from Sifu Cheung. (And I’ve studied from a few) I didn’t study WC to be a philosopher, or historian. I can learn those things eslewhere. I study for combat. How do you test your art? A painter has to paint, a swimmer has to swim. I’d bet that a lot of the guys who start controversy sit behind the safety of their computers and have never been in a really good street fight. I have had to teach WC in the gang ridden neighborhoods of East NY, and Bedford Styvesant, Brooklyn. And in Detroit inner city. Places where people will walk in off the streets and say that kung Fu s–t won’t work in a real street fight and challenge you. Get off your butts and train. Stop the gossip. America needs more warriors.
Phil
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>on his way from Hong Kong to Australia, he was attacked by 10 or 15 ‘grown’ men armed to the teeth with edged weapons, and fought them effectivley. [/quote]
Can you expound? Are we to assume this was in a single encounter and with only empty hand Wing Chun? While anything is “possible” I confess this seems a bit far-fetched. 
Superman?
…he was attacked by 10 or 15 ‘grown’ men armed to the teeth with edged weapons, and fought them effectivley.
EmptyCup
Just curious.
How do you know so much about William Cheung’s style ? Have you even trained in it, and if you did for how long ?
You talk like you’re an expert in all flavours of Wing Chun . Unless you’ve trained a long time in a particular art, you should refrain from making broad statements about anything. Instead you should be asking questions politely, and ponder
about the answers you are given.
Martin Foot
I enjoyed your reading your post; pretty interesting story. Didn’t know that.
P Redmond
You tell 'em !!!
“Kick his ass, Sea-Bass!” - Dumb and Dumber
"He found he needed to make many major adjustments to the system he was being taught for it to work in reality, especially the Footwork. "
Is it possible to expand a bit on the differences between William C / Derek Js wing chun and Victor Kans (which I believe is similar to WSLs approach - is that right?) wing chun.
Are there any major differences you could sum up on this forum for us? Is it largely the footwork, if so what’s different and what isn’t?
Pops
Hi Phil-greetings
In a very short post I merely said that William Cheung from what I
understand was a teenager when he left Hong Kong for Australia. Your own post said he was 18.On that score we are in agreement.In my post then
neither in intention nor in actuality did I criticize the person’s martial abilities or whether he has a right to teach his system or whether there have been very able people in his schools.
You mention"I don’t see ANY other of the WC styles that have the fighting theories, techniques, and principles I’ve learned from Sifu Cheung". I can understand your view. Other folks
have similar views about what they have learned
in some other lines.
Part of the old bickering was from the TWC claims about modified wing chun..Water under the bridge as far as I am concerned. You are correct:
There is a lot of bickering and gossip in wing chun. My brief post in no way was intended in that spirit. Regarding your general rhetorical question “can you use it”/ I think so- but then there is yuanfen and kismet. If I didnt think so and didnt have reasonable grounds for thinking that,
I wouldnt be doing what I do. Good wishes.
What do I know?
Someon wrote
"Just curious.
How do you know so much about William Cheung’s style ? Have you even trained in it, and if you did for how long ?
You talk like you’re an expert in all flavours of Wing Chun . Unless you’ve trained a long time in a particular art, you should refrain from making broad statements about anything. Instead you should be asking questions politely, and ponder about the answers you are given."
Well, I’m just a beginner in Wing Chun. I’ve only been doing it since I got home from Vietnam in 1970. I’ve been practicing continously since then. Before that, I studied Shorinyu in Okinawa. As far how long I’ve trained in Cheung Style WC, well, I was a Sifu when I met Sifu Cheung in 1983. I’ve been his student since then. If you want more information on me please go to, http://www.wingchunkwoon.com. Please look at the Foreward and the History links.
And from now on I’ll try to be more polite to all of you oldtimers, OK?
Now regarding the fight that I mentioned. I organized the first NYC seminar with Sifu William Cheung in 1984. A lot of WC people showed up. Robert Chu, and "Grandmaster "Philip Holder were among those in attendance. I had been a student of Duncan Leung at 3 Great Jones St. NYC until he moved to Virginia Beach. I was in the Penta Plaza Hotel lobby when Duncan Leung, Alan Lee and Sifu were talking about the old days. Duncan witnessed the fight aboard the ship. I was there. I heard them talking about the fight. Duncan Leung was a young kid on his way from Hong Kong to Australia then. He went back to Hong Kong to learn Wing Chun after that. Duncan was the one that told us about, Ah Hing and his fighting prowess. I didn’t find out until years later that Ah Hing was Cheung Cheuk Hing (William Cheung). When Duncan Leung came to NYC he challenged all of the Wing Chun people there. One ‘famous’ sifu even changed the name of his school. Some became his students. If he said someone could fight you had to believe him. He was THE best in NYC.
On an earlier page on Duncan Leung’s website he mentioned the fight also. I don’t know if it’s still there.
Just another newbie,
Phil
[This message was edited by P Redmond on 10-25-01 at 01:59 PM.]
WCFIGHTER
Your question does not seem polite in the least! I HAVE trained in my art for a very long time but I see no relevance. Some who have trained for a long time in an art are even more ignorant than those who are newbies. I have not personally trained under William Cheung but since he has trained other students who do tell the world about how their techniques are superior by comparing EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE DEVIATION, I’m sure that MOST Wing Chun practioners are familiar to them to some extent.
I have also seen videos that William has put out that have him showing his entire style in slow-motion thousands of times 
I assume that the stuff William HIMSELF puts on tape is identical to the stuff he teaches??? or am I wrong in my assumptions? I think that with a background in Wing Chun for so long, that I can make a few comments regarding William. I did not attack the man, in fact I said his skill speaks for itself. I just said things about his approach which he himself teaches. And if I were to point out a bad habit that he repeats countless times and in slow motion, is that his blocks and attacks are not simultaneous. His punches are always a half-second to a second slower. Why don’t you take a look yourself?
Empty Cup
I’m thinking about buying some W. Chueng instructional tapes, specifically “The path to sparring” vols. 1 -2 , “wingchun vs boxing”, The Tao of Wing chun, vol 1-2. I don’t have the money right now but in the future I may consider this. I know you had some reservations, but did you feel the quality of the material was worth it?
Also curious to hear from anyone else who has bought these tapes. I know W. has another set of tapes offered through Black Belt mag, has anyone seen these? -FJ
simultaneous Block + punch
BTW, I was at the Augustine Fong seminar here last Saturday. He was saying that in a street situation, simultaneous block + punch was not possible. This maybe an ideal that can only by approached, not reached. I know that when I am sparring, I have not been able to truly block + punch simultaneously. Of course, I am a beginner!
Just 2.5 years of Wing Chun.
-FJ
Simultaneous???
Think of a Choy Leih Faat stylist swinging a Pow Choy(diagonal strike) at you. If you block and punch simultaneously both of your arms can be trapped. Choy Leih Faat strikes are no joke. Hence, the the simultaneous blocking and striking won’t work. Why would I want to commit both of my arms. I lose the advantage of interruptablity. What you saw William Cheung do is what we are taught. If you don’t believe me. Have someone swing at you from, let’s say, your upper left gate towards your lower right gate. Do a left tan sao punch simultaneously. If the stike at you is done very fast and with great force like CLF does. You can be trapped. You’ve given the person both of your arms at once. Then try it where you do the punch a fraction of a second after the tan (interruptablity). Once he makes contact with your tan sao your contact reflexes from Chi Sao come into play. If you interpret the force as going diagonally you’ll be able to release, recock your strike and use the punching hand to cover. This is one of the reasons that Sifu Cheung was able to beat CLF stylists. I thought the same as you did when I first met Sifu. “Wing Chun is supossed to have simultaneous blocks and strikes,” I said. I eventually learned different. For your sake, please don’t try your way against a skilled CLF guy. They soak their arms in Dit Da Jau and hit hard stuff. We may disagree, but I wouldn’t want you getting hurt. I consider all WC people family.
I don’t expect you believe me. Test it for yourself.
Phil
I’m the one who’s always saying theory is not the same as reality in fighting so believe me, I know that simultaneous is not always the right way. However, I’m talking about scenarios where William TEACHES to block and punch at the same time! His execution is the problem, not the theory. There are other scenarios where he teaches one to BLOCK FIRST and THEN ATTACK. But there are times when he IS TRYING to do it at the same time but fails in the timing. However, as I also said before, all this technical stuff doesn’t matter too much. Chueng was a good fighter. Wong Chun Leung had terrible form and numerous bad habits yet I don’t think his opponents would tell you his skill was anything less than extra-ordinary.
As for CLF, I HAVE SPARRED against CLF. And yes, they have VERY SNEAKY and powerful attacks and combinations. Lots of hammerfists, backfists, waist torque thrown from everywhere and every angle. And yes, you are right that many times I have to block first before attacking otherwise I’d get nailed. I have much respect for CLF as a style and don’t think that Wing Chun is superior. But Wing Chun is a better fit for me!
Other styles i have sparred with that i was impressed by: JKD, Hung Gar, TKD, etc
fa_jing: don’t worry…many theoretical techniques you learn in Wing Chun are almost impossible to pull off in real scenarios.
redmond: I’m impressed with your answer. You showed knowledge without having to resort to flaming or condescending comments. You handled it very diplomatically and came out sounding like a true martial artist, unlike many who post here.
I salute you!
Fa_jing
I think the one I have is vol 1-2 of Tao of Wing Chun. The videos are quite old and they show their times. The presentation is VERY ANNOYING with moving horizonatal lines that blur and LOUD WIND BLOWING noises that distract from the commentator’s dialogue.
However, for a step-by-step guide on hoe to apply wing chun in real combat scenarios such as versus boxers, kickers, etc, it is pretty decent. William shows each thing THOUSANDS OF TIMES until the repetition drives it into your eyeballs and into the back of your skull There’s normal time and slow-motion. The three forms, knives and pole are covered. There’s also a little endorsement from Enter the Dragon clips where we take credit for his pole techniques in the movie although I’ve never seen Wing Chun staff moves like that :rolleyes:
However, these videos should be supplemented by other ones as they are a tad more advanced in terms of the teachings. Trying to memorize the sequences will get you nowhere. He doen’t teach much in terms of appplications but merely shows you scenarios with pre-arranged attacks
Popsider,
It would be inappropriate for me to give a comparison between Williams & Victor’s stuff as I personally haven’t studied with either. I can say however, that in Derek’s system, (Body Mind & Spirit Kung Fu) the footwork is simple yet very profound, we pick our feet up when use advancing footwork and when we move laterally from left to right neutral stances, we also use a t-step to change the angle of our axis relative to the opponents line of attack. Instead of only attacking on the centre line, we have a central line which not only includes the centreline but also extends out both sides at a 45 degree angle, this is important to the application of footwork because we can face the point of contact of a block and strike on the outer aspect of the central line and still ground the energy of the strike & the block. This has the strategical advantage of attacking the opponent consistently at 45 degree angles, not depending on whether attacking the opponent from a parallel or crossed leg position, because one adjusts accordingly. Obviously from there the hand techniques are applied relatively to which axis’s one is working on, & that depends on the direction of the force that is being applied against one.
Martin Foot
Body Mind & Spirit Kung Fu
P Redmond
My previous post that started with:
Empty Cup
Just curious.
How do you know so much about William Cheung’s style? …
This was directed at EmptyCup and not at you.
You misread the post, and thought the question was directed at you.
What I had to say to you directly can be found in the same post under:
P Redmond
and what I had to say to Martin Foot can be found under
Martin Foot
=========== .
Having said that, I am also a Traditional Wing Chun practicioner , and have the utmost respect for Sigong Cheung.
I have also been to your website in the past, and it is really well-designed.
Respectfully,
WCFighter
“Kick his ass, Sea-Bass!” - Dumb and Dumber
Some questions answered…
I use to be part of WILLIAM CHEUNG organization…one of his students from the Baltimore branch. I read about Hawkin Cheung…he believes that William Cheung made up the MY WING CHUN is the TRUE WING CHUN for marketing purpose. Regarding the 10 or 15 armed men vs. William Cheung fight…that is highly debateable and reminds me of BRUCE vs. the goons in the BIG BOSS movie. The difference seems more intune with the stance work. 50/50 distribution! Regarding William Cheung organization I can’t say much about it except that I feel they are extremely prejudice against other wing chun/jkd off shoots. This is from my PERSONAL OBSERVATION.
A
Legitimate question?
Or is that troll bait? I have and greatly respect “How to develop Chi Power.” Guess what. He doesn’t come out and tell you how to direct your chi. However, if you do direct your chi flow, then visualizing it flowing in the direction of those little arrows is going to help you. The book won’t help you that much if you are just getting started with meditation. If you don’t believe in chi, or meditation, maybe you should not waste your time with chinese martial arts, they are heavily based on these concepts.
-FJ
Its impossible to know what the true story is with him, so we may aswell drop it. I often wish I could go in a time machine,undertake plastic surgery so I would look like a chinese guy, study under Yip Man and find out whether all the different claims that people made had any truth in it. (Im a day dreamer)
The only thing we can do is talk about his style today, and discuss how it differs etc.
I heard that they dont do much chi sao at all. Can some Cheung students tell us how much chi sao they practice? (genuinely curious)