Yip Man in Fatsan

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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My opinion…

If Ip Chun were to spar/fight using the knives in the way he has shown in Spencers link then he would do more harm to himself than anything effective towards the other person. Most of the actions are dangerous and incorrectly performed. No consideration has been taken into account assuming that he would be fighting another weapon. No evasion. Incorrect footwork. No attention to the correct recovery of the knife and or level in which certain moves must be executed. All in all a massive thumbs down!!!

Shame there isn’t an emoticon for being sick!!!

GH

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[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1078390]

FWIW I have seen Ip Chuns form and it is the closest I have seen to a ‘full’ version simply because he has at 8 sets each illiustrating a specific ‘chop’, but I am very interested to know if anyone has seen more as always! Here’s the only clip I have of Ip Chuns form on Youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhFU0_iBRBE[/QUOTE]

Ip Chun and Ip Ching didn’t get to HK till 1962 when Ip Man had slowed down- his key HK teaching years were from 1950 to about 62-63. He taught less after that- what a creative teaching period he had.

In any case, I have seen Ho Kam Ming’s knife form-his is a complete set. HKM was only about 4 students who were taught a complete set. WSL was another. I don’t know for sure who the other two were- on I think is dead. Ip Man tinkered with his curriculum from time to time as creative people do. As usual the key to the bjd is in the details.

joy chaudhuri

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[QUOTE=Graham H;1078396]My opinion…

If Ip Chun were to spar/fight using the knives in the way he has shown in Spencers link then he would do more harm to himself than anything effective towards the other person.[/QUOTE]

Its a well considered opinion and I agree (as much as I wish I could have a higher opinion of Ip Mans sons!) The reason for showing this clip is just for it’s form structure. The BJD seems complete, but I too see the lack of training and it’s a point worth considering. In Ip Chuns defense, we was over 70 in that clip!

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1078396]Ip Chun and Ip Ching didn’t get to HK till 1962 when Ip Man had slowed down- his key HK teaching years were from 1950 to about 62-63. He taught less after that- what a creative teaching period he had.[/QUOTE]

Understood, but I feel this bears no relevance to what Ip Ching and Ip Chun would have seen or learnt (albeit ‘casually’) while living with their father in Fatshan. I know they started their formal training late in life, but they were ‘around’ it all from the beginning so familiar with the changes and developments IMO. The whole ‘Association’ had to agree with their role, so they must have had something.

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1078396]In any case, I have seen Ho Kam Ming’s knife form-his is a complete set. HKM was only about 4 students who were taught a complete set. WSL was another. I don’t know for sure who the other two were- on I think is dead. Ip Man tinkered with his curriculum from time to time as creative people do. As usual the key to the bjd is in the details.[/QUOTE]

I’ve heard that Ho Kam Ming had a full knife set too, but have never seen a clip yet (anyone?) I’m not sure that WSL did but he definitely learnt a BJD set of sorts. I think you will find that Ip Mans students with Kam (Metal) in their ‘Martial’ names was taught the knives, but what stage he was at when he taught them is anyones guess.

On a Fatshan note, and regarding Lun Gai I saw this on youtube a while ago and found it quite eye opening (variation of spelling to Lun Kai)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZeylXsJSA0

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[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1078428]On a Fatshan note, and regarding Lun Gai I saw this on youtube a while ago and found it quite eye opening (variation of spelling to Lun Kai)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZeylXsJSA0[/QUOTE]Seen that before. I think the interviewer is taking advantage of an old confused man. Some of the things said don’t add up.

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I know this will upset alot of people and its just my opinion (I cant back it up)

I think Ip Man either did not have or did not want to teach a knife form. I think techniques and theory/strategy existed but not an actual form handed down. What he seemed to teach over the years varies alot.

Also the knives are a common southern weapon and all styles have them, hung gar, clf, wing chun, pak mei etc. all knife forms copy closely the stlyes empty hands.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

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[QUOTE=CFT;1078433]Seen that before. I think the interviewer is taking advantage of an old confused man. Some of the things said don’t add up.[/QUOTE]

Maybe it was just in the editing, but certain things were clear. I found some of the content superb to be fair, a good insight into Lun Gais teaching IMHO.

What things don’t add up to you?

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[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1078435]Maybe it was just in the editing, but certain things were clear. I found some of the content superb to be fair, a good insight into Lun Gais teaching IMHO.

What things don’t add up to you?[/QUOTE]It’s OK. I thought it was one of the empty hand forms he said wasn’t taught. Just the BJD then.

I thought a sign of his confusion was his recognition of Fung Siu Ching’s name, but then commenting that he’d never seen him. Since FSC is of Leung Jan’s generation, of course LG has never seen him!

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[QUOTE=Paul T England;1078434]I think Ip Man either did not have or did not want to teach a knife form. I think techniques and theory/strategy existed but not an actual form handed down. What he seemed to teach over the years varies alot.[/QUOTE]

This is also what Robert has suggested and I’m inclined to agree. But there was a BJD form ‘re-created’ and finalised IMHO, maybe only once Ip Man got to HK. I have seen ‘older’ Wing Chun knife forms too whilst in Fatshan but most tend to be heavily influenced by Hung Gar as that is the more common art in the area.

As far as I’m aware, things like Wooden Man, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee and weaponry were not taught to public students in HK until after Ip Mans death. Everything was private, if not ‘secret’ or ‘indoor’. Looking at the curricullum of Wing Chun from Fatshan to HK, it is evident that refinements were made. Simplification of forms and exercises, especially with the pole and knives, is very evident to me.

In other words, the shorter your weaponry form the more recent a development it was. My opinion only of course :wink:

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Did it ever occur to anyone that the Japanese would have killed anyone they found teaching or practicing to use a deadly weapon? Like say oh I don’t know double knives?

During their occupation of China the Japanese were not know for their kindness and understanding. Anyone that gave even the appearance of a possible trouble maker was dealt with quickly and there were no second chances.

A small private group learning to slice and dice would not have looked good. Just a thought.

As for Yip Chun. he has almost always taught nice simple plain vanilla forms. Hhe made his money teaching large groups that Sam Kwok and others would bring to Hong Kong. Nice and simple is the best way to teach a large group of various skills.

In Hong Kong Yip Bo Ching was the knife man of Yips school. Yip Man taught him a 12 section form . When Yip Bo Ching died Yip Man then taught a 12 section form to WSL. This was just a couple of years before Yip Man died. The 12 section form was in addition too-different from the other form WSL had been taught earlier.

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Very true! :eek:

Maybe this adds to the mystery of the BJD, because if it was only really looked into when Ip Man went to HK then the form would have been ‘re-created’ from his memory (?)

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Its a well considered opinion and I agree (as much as I wish I could have a higher opinion of Ip Mans sons!) The reason for showing this clip is just for it’s form structure. The BJD seems complete, but I too see the lack of training and it’s a point worth considering. In Ip Chuns defense, we was over 70 in that clip!

Earlier clips are just as bad!!! :rolleyes:

I know they started their formal training late in life, but they were ‘around’ it all from the beginning so familiar with the changes and developments IMO. The whole ‘Association’ had to agree with their role, so they must have had something.

Just because you are blood related it doesn’t mean you will make the same ideas!!! Maybe Ip Chun realized there were no real rewards in his previous vocation.

I’ve heard that Ho Kam Ming had a full knife set too, but have never seen a clip yet (anyone?) I’m not sure that WSL did but he definitely learnt a BJD set of sorts. I think you will find that Ip Mans students with Kam (Metal) in their ‘Martial’ names was taught the knives, but what stage he was at when he taught them is anyones guess.

WSL’s Knives are as an integeral part of the system as everything else. There are no grey areas!!

As with everything else in VT it all depends on the contact you have with your Teacher and there are many factors that can dictate how the knowledge is passed on and cultivated.

Only idiots will follow idiots. Those with a bit more up top will smell BS when it approaches!!

GH

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[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1078390]One of the most interesting comments I’ve read recently, which also brings up a question. If, as you suggest, originally there was no knife ‘form’ as such, who created the Baat Cham Dao? And if it was created and developed at different times, who out there among the elder generations even has a ‘complete’ version??

FWIW I have seen Ip Chuns form and it is the closest I have seen to a ‘full’ version simply because he has at 8 sets each illiustrating a specific ‘chop’, but I am very interested to know if anyone has seen more as always! Here’s the only clip I have of Ip Chuns form on Youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhFU0_iBRBE[/QUOTE]

Yip Man created the modern form in variations. Most of the movements are in the empty hand sets, then translated to weapons. Its not that hard to make up knife movements from empty handed WCK. In Gu Lao WCK, you can simply adapt the knives to the points.

Amongst the people that were taught a complete form from Yip Man, I can definitely say Moy Yat, Ho Kam Ming, Koo Sang, Hawkins Cheung, Chow Tse Chuen, and Leung Ting did. Some I am not sure of, as I have not seen it… Many others made up their own, got a few pieces here and there, went to a restaurant chatted while having dim sum, and got lessons with chopsticks. Some have very strange ideas of the use of the knives or use incorrect steps/stances.

Even some in Moy Yat lineage made up their own sets, or learned 6 out of 8 sections.

The ones that flip the knives with the hook/tang mistaken the use and present a danger to themselves and would die in an encounter with the long pole or spear.

Even the name Baat Jaam Dao is made up by Yip Man.

Ho Kam Ming’s set is very comprehensive, as is Leung Ting’s and Koo Sang’s sets (which are similar to the Yip Chun set sans flipping). Ho Kam Ming, Hawkins Cheung, Duncan Leung and Allan Lee have the same set (more or less).

I have learned and saw many variations of WSL’s sets. I think WSL made WCK and the knives in his own image, and they fit with his understanding. They are not exactly what Yip Man taught, but quite formidable and his understanding deep.

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Most of the movements are in the empty hand sets, then translated to weapons. Its not that hard to make up knife movements from empty handed WCK.

You are correct!! Thats what most have done and you can see it a mile off!!!

Amongst the people that were taught a complete form from Yip Man, I can definitely say Moy Yat, Ho Kam Ming, Koo Sang, Hawkins Cheung, Chow Tse Chuen, and Leung Ting did. Some I am not sure of, as I have not seen it… Many others made up their own, got a few pieces here and there, went to a restaurant chatted while having dim sum, and got lessons with chopsticks. Some have very strange ideas of the use of the knives or use incorrect steps/stances.

Even some of the ones you have pointed out!!!

The ones that flip the knives with the hook/tang mistaken the use and present a danger to themselves and would die in an encounter with the long pole or spear.

…and yet you say LT was taught what???..I don’t think so. I’m surprised LT still has all his extremeties!!!

Even the name Baat Jaam Dao is made up by Yip Man.

Thats a new one on me…interesting.

Ho Kam Ming’s set is very comprehensive, as is Leung Ting’s and Koo Sang’s sets (which are similar to the Yip Chun set sans flipping). Ho Kam Ming, Hawkins Cheung, Duncan Leung and Allan Lee have the same set (more or less).

If they are similar to Ip Chuns then they weren’t taught properly IMO.

I have learned and saw many variations of WSL’s sets.

…and why do you think that is??? There is as much rot in our lineage as there is in others…ok, maybe not so much!! :smiley:

I think WSL made WCK and the knives in his own image, and they fit with his understanding.

Maybe (like me and others) he saw the other garbage out there and improved things…just maybe.

They are not exactly what Yip Man taught, but quite formidable and his understanding deep

I have it in WSL’s own words that he taught EXACTLY what he was taught by Yip Man albeit a few subtle changes for teaching purposes.

Too many people trying to reinvent the wheel and there are now more wheels then there are on the planets truck population!!!

GH

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[QUOTE=Graham H;1078626]You are correct!! Thats what most have done and you can see it a mile off!!!

Even some of the ones you have pointed out!!!

…and yet you say LT was taught what???..I don’t think so. I’m surprised LT still has all his extremeties!!!

Thats a new one on me…interesting.

If they are similar to Ip Chuns then they weren’t taught properly IMO.

…and why do you think that is??? There is as much rot in our lineage as there is in others…ok, maybe not so much!! :smiley:

Maybe (like me and others) he saw the other garbage out there and improved things…just maybe.

I have it in WSL’s own words that he taught EXACTLY what he was taught by Yip Man albeit a few subtle changes for teaching purposes.

Too many people trying to reinvent the wheel and there are now more wheels then there are on the planets truck population!!!

GH[/QUOTE]

So do tell us… whos good and who’s not?
Both in your lineage and all the others mentioned

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[QUOTE=Graham H;1078626]
I have it in WSL’s own words that he taught EXACTLY what he was taught by Yip Man albeit a few subtle changes for teaching purposes.

Too many people trying to reinvent the wheel and there are now more wheels then there are on the planets truck population!!!

GH[/QUOTE]

I may be incorrect on this, but Im pretty sure that I have read WSL didnt have a set of his own, or again taught different sets throughout his life. almost in a san sik pattern. As in; it doesnt matter the order as long as you have all the elements. Perhaps I saw this on Barry Lee’s site?

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[QUOTE=chusauli;1078459]Yip Man created the modern form in variations. Most of the movements are in the empty hand sets, then translated to weapons. Its not that hard to make up knife movements from empty handed WCK. In Gu Lao WCK, you can simply adapt the knives to the points.[/QUOTE]

I think you are down playing the idea that the form may have existed way before Ip man, and may even pre-date the empty hand forms. I know how simple it is to adopt the knives to the hand, but the form is very specific (from what little I have seen!) But I see the logic here. If there was originally no form but practise methods it should be these methods we’re interested in.

Unfortunately I have never seen anyone use the knives efficiently and effectively enough compared with my own very basic training, but I do understand that they are still considered quite secret by some.

[QUOTE=chusauli;1078459]The ones that flip the knives with the hook/tang mistaken the use and present a danger to themselves and would die in an encounter with the long pole or spear.[/QUOTE]

From this wayward comment, like so many others before you, you show a lack of knowledge of Jao Dao, or ‘sleeve knife’ training. This is very common fme, and practical, but obviously needs correct instruction or you would arrive at the same conclusion as you have. An incorrect conclusion IMHO.

[QUOTE=chusauli;1078459]Even the name Baat Jaam Dao is made up by Yip Man.[/QUOTE]

Also, for me, that’s the first time I’ve heard of Ip Man inventing the name of the form. And to be fair, I have never heard any reasons as to the name being given other than what I have learnt personally. But I only know basics.

[QUOTE=Graham H;1078459]If they are similar to Ip Chuns then they weren’t taught properly IMO.[/QUOTE]

:frowning: Personally I think you would change your mind if you saw the sets demonstrated with more skill, and it’s unfair to dismiss what Ip Chun has offered especially if the construct of the form is similar if not identical to others who were known to be weaponry players.

Maybe after all, the knives are still being held back from public consupmtion :smiley: But if you will share some clips of yourself practising with your blades I will do the same… actually that offer extends to anyone here.

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[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1078633]Also, for me, that’s the first time I’ve heard of Ip Man inventing the name of the form. And to be fair, I have never heard any reasons as to the name being given other than what I have learnt personally. But I only know basics.[/QUOTE]Spencer, you’re used the wingchunpedia site before as a reference. If you look at the pre-Yip Man systems (e.g. Chan Wah Sun) you’ll find that they are called “Yee ji dao” (character “2” knives). There will usually be some added superlatives like “life taking” etc.

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[QUOTE=GlennR;1078629]So do tell us… whos good and who’s not?
Both in your lineage and all the others mentioned[/QUOTE]

Better for you to travel around and find out like I did.:wink:

GH

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[QUOTE=LSWCTN1;1078630]I may be incorrect on this, but Im pretty sure that I have read WSL didnt have a set of his own, or again taught different sets throughout his life. almost in a san sik pattern. As in; it doesnt matter the order as long as you have all the elements. Perhaps I saw this on Barry Lee’s site?[/QUOTE]

That would make no sense so I don’t agree but I wasn’t around from the 50’s through 80’s to find out. :stuck_out_tongue:

GH

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Unfortunately I have never seen anyone use the knives efficiently and effectively enough compared with my own very basic training, but I do understand that they are still considered quite secret by some.

…I have!! :wink:

Personally I think you would change your mind if you saw the sets demonstrated with more skill, and it’s unfair to dismiss what Ip Chun has offered especially if the construct of the form is similar if not identical to others who were known to be weaponry players.

I’ve seen it all before Spencer prior to becoming a student of Philipp Bayer. It doesn’t make no odds about the construct of the form. Its about how the knives fit in with the rest of the system, the thinking behind them and how they are used in sparring.

Until I saw this myself then I didnt have a clue either. Just thought it was all for tradition and show.

GH