Yip Man in Fatsan

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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Thanks to Chee for providing the links. But not knowing Chinese I didn’t know what to click on.
Hit and miss didn’t work for me.
But I have seen pictures of Lun Gai’s work I think in one of Leung Ting’s books and I saw a brief video of Lun Gai on the dummy.
I think FWIW that good wing chun in Hong Kong really progressed much beyond what I saw of Lun Gai. Kudos to him for preserving what he learned.
Students learn only part of what a good teacher knows-though they can point towards a teacher’s knowledge.

joy chaudhuri

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I thought the whole point of ip man changing the forms and names of techniques/stances was to make it more simple… I can see why he changed the names from things like the 5 element stances and stopped using the poems.

As i don’t know the mainland forms, i can’t really say if it’s harder to learn for new students. But i would assume that the HK SLT would be easier…

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[QUOTE=T.D.O;1077987]I can see why he changed the names from things like the 5 element stances and stopped using the poems.[/QUOTE]

And what do you see? I would be interested to hear what anyone thinks about Ip Mans evolutions.

Was it really evolution? Or revolution?!

FWIW I have heard little talk of poems/kuit being used in Fatshan WCK but maybe someone here knows more as I too haven’t had enough experience first hand of their teachings.

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Assuming you may have blocking software operating. Allow: 56.com and 56img.com
Wait for the ad to finish, then you should get Lun Gai’s video.

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[QUOTE=CFT;1078057]Assuming you may have blocking software operating. Allow: 56.com and 56img.com
Wait for the ad to finish, then you should get Lun Gai’s video.[/QUOTE]

Thanks a million Chee- it worked. My security software was preventing me from seeing the video.
I saw about 80% of the video…the twenty percent was towards the end… because my sister in law’s truck had a flat tire and I was drafted for problem solving- not over yet.

Some tentative comments/opinions:

  1. The small group that Lun Gai apparently was in when Ip Man taught in Foshan- met for four years or so?

  2. There is always the issue of how accurately Lun Gai was representing what he was being taught. In the dummy section he seemed to lose his structure a couple of times- bending back.

  3. Some of his bjd and kwan moves are recognizable.

4.No question that wing chun has progressed much from Lun Gai’s version. Ip Man often tinkered to improve his form.

  1. No question that Ip Man gained more experience in teaching in HK.

Thanks again Chee- that was informative as far as history is concerned.

Gotta solve a flat tire problem. UGH.

joy chaudhuri

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[QUOTE=Graham H;1077530] . . . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mH9cbbKOl7E&feature=related

Isn’t anybody going to offer an explanation of why we do Huen Sau in the dummy form??? :confused:

GH[/QUOTE]
Every WC lineage I’ve learned has a huen sao on the dummy. It’s used to move someone’s arm to one side.

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[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1078010]And what do you see? I would be interested to hear what anyone thinks about Ip Mans evolutions.

Was it really evolution? Or revolution?!

FWIW I have heard little talk of poems/kuit being used in Fatshan WCK but maybe someone here knows more as I too haven’t had enough experience first hand of their teachings.[/QUOTE]

From my point of view… this is a subject not having any thing do with WCK but learning. The name changes give a clear explanation as to the structure or purpose, well maybe not clear as such… but Bridging hand sounds more like what it’s for than monkey paw. I don’t know what stance is what element to give you an example, but i’m sure you can think about it. :wink:

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Gwok fu would be a better represntation of early yip man. He is the senior, lun gai says that. He was Yip’s top fighter and is well known. He had his legs broken by the jap soilders but his students are some of the best I have trained with in Hk or the main land.

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[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1077750]

As an example of the reps thing, Lee Shings Biu Jee is very different in one respect as he repeats certain techs 5 times instead of 3 (like everyone else does) and he also has the sets in a different order than most. I hold onto that info as a reference and remember what my Sifu said about the why’s etc and still would teach in 5’s today because of that knowledge. I do not copy his ‘look’ though and I think that is also where you’re coming from, which is something we then have in common!
.[/QUOTE]

Spencer

The reason for performing certain actions in the forms highlights the fact that they need extra work. They are taught that way purely for learning purposes. I always practice more than 3 Fook Sau’s in SLT for instance as moving the elbow in such a way is important for developing the correct punching behaviour. Without going into too much detail…the turning actions in CK, shown three times, but in training I practice 100 times. The turning and stepping Bong Sau’s, shown three times, which practice 100’s. Dang Quan’s in the long pole form…1000’s etc etc etc. They are important actions and therefore highlighted in the forms. Thats not to say anything else should be neglected but this idea make perfect sense.

People that consitently practice the forms as they were taught are not using them properly. The form movements are there to develop the body and also the concepts and positions so that one can fight using Ving Tsun. They are tools.

GH

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To Robert & Joy

Not being widely, nor deeply, trained in Wing Chun Kuen, I would be greatly interested to hear your thoughts on the evolution from YM’s Foshan teachings (as demonstrated by Lun Gai) to his HK material.

EDIT: I see Joy has already added some detail in the ‘Evolution’ thread. Thanks Joy.

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[QUOTE=Graham H;1078216]The reason for performing certain actions in the forms highlights the fact that they need extra work. They are taught that way purely for learning purposes. I always practice more than 3 Fook Sau’s in SLT…[/QUOTE]

I advocate the same idea when it comes to disecting and drilling each set of the form, but I was attempting to suggest that ‘the reason’ there are 3 or 5 reps ‘within’ the form itself should also be understood. And IMHO it’s great to drill 1000’s of reps, but you wouldn’t demonstrated that as being the SLT form would you? You would revert back to the original form structure at least, or I would :wink:

Picking up on other posts here, I would also like to hear more about the evolution of Ip Mans Wing Chun from Fatshan to HK. I noticed Gok Fu’s name mentioned, but where can I find more information on him??

The only other Sifu I have met from Fatshan is Mak Yiu Ming from Cheung Bo lineage and he has a few clips up these days. What I can say is, his students were very tough!! Very drilled and very friendly!! (once we got over the initial hurdles)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvOkmH7WqSY&feature=related

He also shows some of his forms here (1min30sec onwards), which I recorded on the day of Ip Mans Opening Ceremony and posted before
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZc0Lyw385U

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[QUOTE=CFT;1078217]Not being widely, nor deeply, trained in Wing Chun Kuen, I would be greatly interested to hear your thoughts on the evolution from YM’s Foshan teachings (as demonstrated by Lun Gai) to his HK material.

EDIT: I see Joy has already added some detail in the ‘Evolution’ thread. Thanks Joy.[/QUOTE]

Chee,

I think Lun Gai was great and generous to show his sets and skills! His short videotaping is a treasure to the Yip Man WCK family.

I think we do more or less the same pole, and that Yip Man cleaned up the Chum Kiu set as we have it in HK, and maybe made it look more like YKS’s set. The older set in Futshan has too many repetitions. I think the Biu Jee set now also looks more like YKS’s and that YKS is a probable hidden ancestor (and being family friends, Yip Man cannot say he is his “Sifu” publicly because he kowtowed to Chan Wah Shun, and might be accused of jumping 2 generations in the WCK family).

Also, Lun Gai and Gwok Fu allegedly had access to these “secret” manuals Yip Man gave them (which I have), and can only speculate, they think the phoenix eye fist is to strike the “dim mak” points.

Joy said that Lun Gai’s knife set is “incomplete” - I disagree, respectfully. I have also learned Ho Kam Ming’s and Hawkins’ sets, and while it is longer, it still has the same elements as what Lun Gai shows. At that time, in the 1940’s, that was probably all there was. As I have wrote in the past, originally, no WCK had knives sets, you simply used them according to your skill in your hands.

All in all, it was interesting. I will also say there is a difference in the way power is issued. For Lun Gai and even most HK Yip Man WCK, there is an excessive use of shifting, and I do not think this is proper, as WCK depends upon bearing a load through the frame, then taking control of the center of gravity and centerline.

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Robert Says:

Joy said that Lun Gai’s knife set is “incomplete” - I disagree, respectfully.

It’s ok to have different views. Robert and I have different perspectives in some things.

joy chaudhuri

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[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1078280]Robert Says:

Joy said that Lun Gai’s knife set is “incomplete” - I disagree, respectfully.

It’s ok to have different views. Robert and I have different perspectives in some things.

joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]

Thank you.

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[QUOTE=bennyvt;1078195]Gwok fu would be a better represntation of early yip man. He is the senior, lun gai says that. He was Yip’s top fighter and is well known. He had his legs broken by the jap soilders but his students are some of the best I have trained with in Hk or the main land.[/QUOTE]

Hi Benny, hope you are well
What are some of the good points regarding Gwok Fu and his guys?
GlennR

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[QUOTE=chusauli;1078266]I think we do more or less the same pole, and that Yip Man cleaned up the Chum Kiu set as we have it in HK, and maybe made it look more like YKS’s set. The older set in Futshan has too many repetitions. I think the Biu Jee set now also looks more like YKS’s and that YKS is a probable hidden ancestor (and being family friends, Yip Man cannot say he is his “Sifu” publicly because he kowtowed to Chan Wah Shun, and might be accused of jumping 2 generations in the WCK family).[/QUOTE]Thank you for the detailed analysis Robert. There are some youtube clips of Lun Gai teaching aspects of the pole to his Argentinian student Neldo Sarcomani. I always felt that the “pau bong” section in the CK set was too repetitious. 3 times on each side but done twice, the only difference being that one set started with a pivot and the other with a step.

Also, Lun Gai and Gwok Fu allegedly had access to these “secret” manuals Yip Man gave them (which I have), and can only speculate, they think the phoenix eye fist is to strike the “dim mak” points.
I do wonder about incorporating the phoenix eye into the SNT and CK forms. I know Yip Man said “practice the phoenix eye”, but that does not necessarily mean put it into the forms.

All in all, it was interesting. I will also say there is a difference in the way power is issued. For Lun Gai and even most HK Yip Man WCK, there is an excessive use of shifting, and I do not think this is proper, as WCK depends upon bearing a load through the frame, then taking control of the center of gravity and centerline.
Possibly I didn’t sped long enough in training, or there was “residual” practices from other WCK lineages in my old club, but I felt that the SNT form was performed with a fixed YJKYM. It was not helpful in training the receiving and issuing of force via the horse. To be honest it wasn’t apparent in CK either.

The Lun Gai videos were part of a VCD/DVD set. Not sure whether it is commercially available today. It is a very useful resource for students in his lineage.

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Hi Chee- some comments on your post in brackets. And thanks again for finding and sharing that video-it is “historical”

I do wonder about incorporating the phoenix eye into the SNT and CK forms. I know Yip Man said “practice the phoenix eye”, but that does not necessarily mean put it into the forms.

(((In the Ip Man related wing chun that i do-the phoenix eye is in both the jong and the biu jee forms))

Possibly I didn’t sped long enough in training, or there was “residual” practices from other WCK lineages in my old club, but I felt that the SNT form was performed with a fixed YJKYM. It was not helpful in training the receiving and issuing of force via the horse. To be honest it wasn’t apparent in CK either.

(( I don’t know what you mean by the fixed YJKYM. But his stancing was not particularly strong.
I was not impressed by his two students either in their chi sao or in their attacks. Interestingly though he seemed to turn on his heels in his chor ma))

The Lun Gai videos were part of a VCD/DVD set. Not sure whether it is commercially available today. It is a very useful resource for students in his lineage.

((For sure. Joy))

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[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1078374]I don’t know what you mean by the fixed YJKYM. But his stancing was not particularly strong.

I was not impressed by his two students either in their chi sao or in their attacks. Interestingly though he seemed to turn on his heels in his chor ma[/QUOTE]In SNT it is a static horse. No sinking or rising in the stance like in CSLWCK for example (I’m not a student of Robert’s, but some of my friends are/were his grand-students).

I was not impressed by the students in the background either and that is from someone with “shallow” learning!

Gwok Fu’s group is supposedly very good I hear (to echo bennyvt). Paul T of this forum has trained with them too.

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[QUOTE=chusauli;1078266]Joy said that Lun Gai’s knife set is “incomplete” - I disagree, respectfully. I have also learned Ho Kam Ming’s and Hawkins’ sets, and while it is longer, it still has the same elements as what Lun Gai shows. At that time, in the 1940’s, that was probably all there was. As I have wrote in the past, originally, no WCK had knives sets, you simply used them according to your skill in your hands. [/QUOTE]

One of the most interesting comments I’ve read recently, which also brings up a question. If, as you suggest, originally there was no knife ‘form’ as such, who created the Baat Cham Dao? And if it was created and developed at different times, who out there among the elder generations even has a ‘complete’ version??

FWIW I have seen Ip Chuns form and it is the closest I have seen to a ‘full’ version simply because he has at 8 sets each illiustrating a specific ‘chop’, but I am very interested to know if anyone has seen more as always! Here’s the only clip I have of Ip Chuns form on Youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhFU0_iBRBE

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[QUOTE=CFT;1078384]

I was not impressed by the students in the background either and that is from someone with “shallow” learning!

[/QUOTE]

Don’t worry Chee. I wasn’t impressed by any of it!!! :rolleyes:

GH