[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1150392]The Ying strength is your opponent’s strength that you borrow. You can only train how to borrow. You can’t train how to develop your opponent’s strength. It’s not your strength anyway.[/QUOTE]
Do you also have Yin strength?
Can you develop it?
You need both, and learn to use them together, that is what MA is.
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;1150240]In Wing Chun what is the Yin Yang principle?
How is observed,practiced or followed?
Sayings of the Kuit Kuen:
"- Know the difference between Yin and Yang, real and feigned. Take advantage of any available opportunity. "
"- The Yin Yang principle should be thoroughly understood. "[/QUOTE]
Yang is strong; yin is pliant or yielding. If you ever get a chance to read a book called What is Tai Chi, he provides insight on what is Yin/Yang. In short, it seems like
you can grasp the concept if you are thoroughly steeped in Chinese cultural. He indicates that its a concept that Chinese can grasp almost intuitively.
Simple test:
Try balancing a snooker cue on your finger…
Do you focus on moving your finger (movement, Yang) or do you stare at the top of the cue (Yi, Yin)?
When I contact an opponent, I don’t focus on the contact point (moving the finger), I focus on the opponent’s power source (top of the cue).
Low level fighting, focus on the finger (epic fail). Medium level, focus on both (fail). Aim, focus on the purpose (Yi) and let the Yi guide your body without conscious effort (winning). No magic here, just the correct mind-set.
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;1150495]Do you also have Yin strength?
Can you develop it?[/QUOTE]
It’s hard to discuss on this if we don’t have proper definition for Yin strength. Some people defines mingjing as Yang, anjing as Ying, and huajing as 1/2 Yang and 1/2 Yin.
To me, I prefer to call all power that you can generate are Yang power. When you make love to your love one, if you are on top, you are using Yang strength. If she is on top, you are using Yin strength (not your strength. You just borrow it).
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;1150367]why not? why shouldnt some things be shared in a public forum?[/QUOTE]
Agreed, that’s one of the problems with TCMA. The secret is . . . . .ta da. . . there is no secret. :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1150541]Agreed, that’s one of the problems with TCMA. The secret is . . . . .ta da. . . there is no secret. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
If someone is not willing to share, he should not get involved with discussion in the first place.
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1150541]Agreed, that’s one of the problems with TCMA. The secret is . . . . .ta da. . . there is no secret. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
There is a secret. The problem is that the secret is often right in front of the student’s (our) eyes; he or she does not pick up on it.
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1150541]Agreed, that’s one of the problems with TCMA. The secret is . . . . .ta da. . . there is no secret. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
my gung fu is so mystical and esoteric…i can not share all the details with everyone!!!
Correction…I will only not share what i do not know or what i am still learning!
[QUOTE=Robinhood;1150504]You need both, and learn to use them together, that is what MA is.[/QUOTE]
Great post 
Snake = Yin/Yum
Crane = Yang/Yeurng
The Yum Yeurng level in my own training was simply an area of therapeutic practise that we had to go through very early on. It’s as simple as co-ordinating the left and right hand, the upper and lower body and shouldn’t get too complex imho.
The Internal/External method is also a Yum Yeurng but I strongly advised to acheive a ‘balance’ here, after all that is what the Yum Yeurng teaches us. Balance.
Don’t view them as opposites, but as complimenataries 
In fact my own approach to coaching specializes in this method too
www.theyumyeurngacademy.co.uk
Interesting…how ever i see the snake as Yang and the crane is Yin! But its just my opinion i suppose…when you attack you utilize a snake core or snake engine as hendrix would say…when you defend you utilize a wing arm or wing hand like Tan sau or Bong Sau or Fok Sau.
The structure for attack is more snake with darting steps. The structure for dissipating force is more crane in that you swallow energy and bring it to nothingness. Snake is more elusive like a boxer it just keeps moving from side to side as it attacks. Where Crane recieves force and lets it go [QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1150618]Great post
Snake = Yin/Yum
Crane = Yang/Yeurng
The Yum Yeurng level in my own training was simply an area of therapeutic practise that we had to go through very early on. It’s as simple as co-ordinating the left and right hand, the upper and lower body and shouldn’t get too complex imho.
The Internal/External method is also a Yum Yeurng but I strongly advised to acheive a ‘balance’ here, after all that is what the Yum Yeurng teaches us. Balance.
Don’t view them as opposites, but as complimenataries
In fact my own approach to coaching specializes in this method too
www.theyumyeurngacademy.co.uk[/QUOTE]
I once worked with a guy who was so into the theory I don’t think it was good for his own good every blocking hand becomes a strife and vice vera he said which is fine however when I doubled up a lap with a low palm to the ribs followed by a head strike with the same hand he was so thrown off…
[QUOTE=mjw;1150861]I once worked with a guy who was so into the theory I don’t think it was good for his own good every blocking hand becomes a strife and vice vera he said which is fine however when I doubled up a lap with a low palm to the ribs followed by a head strike with the same hand he was so thrown off…[/QUOTE]
Thats a Basic technique…his wing chun must have not practiced that technique!
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;1150702]Interesting…how ever i see the snake as Yang and the crane is Yin! But its just my opinion i suppose…when you attack you utilize a snake core or snake engine as hendrix would say…when you defend you utilize a wing arm or wing hand like Tan sau or Bong Sau or Fok Sau.
The structure for attack is more snake with darting steps. The structure for dissipating force is more crane in that you swallow energy and bring it to nothingness. Snake is more elusive like a boxer it just keeps moving from side to side as it attacks. Where Crane recieves force and lets it go[/QUOTE]
Very interesting to see we have opposite ideas, yet I am aware the yum/yeurng principle is one of duality so I guess nobody can be wrong here! I also have seen others describe yum movements how I describe yeurng movements, and once explained both had their strengths and weaknesses.
After practising Shotokan when I was a kid, I think I can safely say that the impression I got from White Crane was that it was primarily a hard style. The snake itself is soft-bodied, it utilizes attacks to the nervous system and coils around its prey to restrict movement. These stuffs are very internal imho, but like you say it’s only my opinion.
The cranes bones, beak and claws are not soft, and although it may have internal energies like the spit and swallow they are designed more for stamina (flying long distances) than for soft elusive training.
When we practised the snake and crane interactions it was mainly the snake that stood ground to protect it’s nest, coiled and waiting, while the crane moved around, darting in and out trying to snatch the opportunities. In this specific case, the snake is defending and the crane attacks, but of course we switched this around too and both characters look and more importantly ‘feel’ different in each set-up.
Both animals are a distinctive Yum Yeurng too, unlike any other combination, going way back to the original sects of snake and crane (Taoism and Buddhism) Even if you look at these two religions or ‘ways’ the Buddhism is much more external and in the public domain, whereas the Taoists are more removed, internal and out of sight. This I feel is a good place to start any research into the Yin Yang / Yum Yeurng principles
Just my thoughts…
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;1150937]Thats a Basic technique…his wing chun must have not practiced that technique![/QUOTE]
It seemed that he was expecting the other hand to strike yadi dadi.
Thanks for your post. I guess I can say both are good ways to look at it…
But I dont see Wing Chun as attacking as a crane…Wing chun wants to end the fight quickly by getting in close like a snake and coiling around its opponent and hitting vital areas.
“Body Like Crane and Hands Like Swimming Dragons!”
The body movements are like the white crane. You move all around your opponents flank while attacking him. But the Bridging hands are like that of the snake…
“Coil around its prey” - chi sau, trapping, flanking
“Attacks to the nervous system” - protect and attack the center line
Your center line houses the (conceptual meridian). Priamary attacks from Wing Chun is the adams applpe, the nose, and groin area. Preferably the nuts. You attack these points on the centerline. Wing Chun does go force for force. It gives. It goes around force. You do not do hard hand blocks, do you. Nor do you try to force your way into an person who has a strong defense. You go around the force so you can strike, or you move the obstruction out the way while attacking. Attack and Defend simultaneously is evitable.
When you chi sau. You are utilizing a snake idea of constricting around its opponent. Most Wing Chun out there do not utilize crane beak and claws. Most Wing Chun out there do not take the time to develop that Kung Nor do they develop the snake kung. But even though thats not the case you still have certain ideas. I just see the body mechninacs as crane and attacking as snake!
Snake punches are they not more linear? Like a snake darts or thrust in?
Look at the defensive hand techniques. Tan Sau, Fook Sau and Bong Sau…Are they not Wing and Beak of the white crane?
Defend with crane and attack with snake. Bil Gee, Thrusting Punch, is akin to snake
Bong Sau wing arm is akin to White crane!
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1150989]Very interesting to see we have opposite ideas, yet I am aware the yum/yeurng principle is one of duality so I guess nobody can be wrong here! I also have seen others describe yum movements how I describe yeurng movements, and once explained both had their strengths and weaknesses.
After practising Shotokan when I was a kid, I think I can safely say that the impression I got from White Crane was that it was primarily a hard style. The snake itself is soft-bodied, it utilizes attacks to the nervous system and coils around its prey to restrict movement. These stuffs are very internal imho, but like you say it’s only my opinion.
The cranes bones, beak and claws are not soft, and although it may have internal energies like the spit and swallow they are designed more for stamina (flying long distances) than for soft elusive training.
When we practised the snake and crane interactions it was mainly the snake that stood ground to protect it’s nest, coiled and waiting, while the crane moved around, darting in and out trying to snatch the opportunities. In this specific case, the snake is defending and the crane attacks, but of course we switched this around too and both characters look and more importantly ‘feel’ different in each set-up.
Both animals are a distinctive Yum Yeurng too, unlike any other combination, going way back to the original sects of snake and crane (Taoism and Buddhism) Even if you look at these two religions or ‘ways’ the Buddhism is much more external and in the public domain, whereas the Taoists are more removed, internal and out of sight. This I feel is a good place to start any research into the Yin Yang / Yum Yeurng principles
Just my thoughts…[/QUOTE]
lol ha ha..needs to be prepared for anything!
[QUOTE=mjw;1151005]It seemed that he was expecting the other hand to strike yadi dadi.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;1151095]Thanks for your post. I guess I can say both are good ways to look at it…
But I dont see Wing Chun as attacking as a crane…Wing chun wants to end the fight quickly by getting in close like a snake and coiling around its opponent and hitting vital areas.
“Body Like Crane and Hands Like Swimming Dragons!”
The body movements are like the white crane. You move all around your opponents flank while attacking him. But the Bridging hands are like that of the snake…
“Coil around its prey” - chi sau, trapping, flanking
“Attacks to the nervous system” - protect and attack the center line
Your center line houses the (conceptual meridian). Priamary attacks from Wing Chun is the adams applpe, the nose, and groin area. Preferably the nuts. You attack these points on the centerline. Wing Chun does go force for force. It gives. It goes around force. You do not do hard hand blocks, do you. Nor do you try to force your way into an person who has a strong defense. You go around the force so you can strike, or you move the obstruction out the way while attacking. Attack and Defend simultaneously is evitable.
When you chi sau. You are utilizing a snake idea of constricting around its opponent. Most Wing Chun out there do not utilize crane beak and claws. Most Wing Chun out there do not take the time to develop that Kung Nor do they develop the snake kung. But even though thats not the case you still have certain ideas. I just see the body mechninacs as crane and attacking as snake!
Snake punches are they not more linear? Like a snake darts or thrust in?
Look at the defensive hand techniques. Tan Sau, Fook Sau and Bong Sau…Are they not Wing and Beak of the white crane?
Defend with crane and attack with snake. Bil Gee, Thrusting Punch, is akin to snake
Bong Sau wing arm is akin to White crane![/QUOTE]
All relevant and good discussion points, but I feel that we are ultimately dealing with Yum Yeurng principles here and so each can be the other at times. I don’t like to limit it down to the snake is this technique or form and the crane is this one etc, unless it’s at the very beginning and I’m highlighting a foundation understanding. What I like to do is promote strong Wing Chun. End of. And I believe a balance is required to acheive this.
As an example, the Seed of Bong, Tan and Fook belong to both the snake and crane fme. And one of the best basic understandings I was taught which is similar to you (I think) was the hands were related to the snake and the legs to the crane, but this is interchangeable and can be divided further into ratios like the 50:50, 60:40, 70:30, 80:20 arguments and so on.
To highlight another idea, the snake body of bongsau (a heigung exercise) was first shown by Bruce Lee in ETD Notice the expansion of the under arm ‘wings’? Similar to the head of a cobra, no?
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1151170
Notice the expansion of the under arm ‘wings’? Similar to the head of a cobra, no?NO!
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1151179]NO![/QUOTE]
And what makes you say that Joy?? Were you taught any Heigung by Sifu Fong?