Hi everyone,
In numerous articles, the names can be found of the respective sons of Yang Pan Hou and Yang Shao Hou. They were more or less of the same age as Yang Cheng Fu, however, apart from their names, nothing else can be found. At least not by me.
Does anybody know if they practised the family art as well? If so, why are they almost unknown to the public?
Thanks!
Francesco
Yang Shao Hou has three living leneage dsciples, Ip Tai Tak, Chu Gin Soon, and another Chu who I can never recall. (No relation to Gin Soon).
Yang lineages
Check out this article for one version of the Yang style history.
The second half addresses your question to a certain extent…
Hmmm
Please Walter Joyce you’ve made several blaring mistakes here.
It’s Yabg Sau Chung who has those disciples, and then to correct that his first disciple Ip Tai Tak died nearly two years ago and the third less often cited disciple is Chu King Hung.
This is primary school info.
Pah!
The article is confusing:
Splinter: do you train with this Master Tommy?
Thanks,
Francesco
Hi Francesco, I certainly understand your question because it seems like “Yang Style” is almost universally associated with Yang Chengfu’s lineage.
My Sifu’s Sifu studied directly with Yang Shao-Hou (Yang Chengfu’s older brother) and Yang Jianhou (their father) and learned Yang Imperial from them which is the Yang style prior to Yang Chengfu’s modifications as it was taught to the Imperial Guard of China. As to why it is not as well known, remember that Yang Luchan (the grandfather of Yang Chengfu) learned Chen style initially in secret by observing the Chen family before he was formally taken in as a student. Once he developed Yang style he taught it primarily to his family and the Imperial Guard of China (who wanted to learn from “Yang the Invincible”). I suspect that most of the people who studied the early Yang style kept the art in their families, which is not unusual among Chinese. Then when most of the Yang family had passed away and Yang Chengfu (who was the youngest) became the heir to the style, he modified the form, wrote a book, and taught to a wider audience. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but it explains why his lineage is more well known.
This article is such a piece of fiction and bull**** it’s not even worth the time to read it!!! This is just another school who thinks they’ve got the real **** and in reality they got nothing but ****! What a crock of lies! These people obviously no nothing about Yang Cheng Fu and his tremendous skill, as well as his two oldest sons Yang Sau Chung and Yang Zhen Ji.
That article seems to imply that the slow form is B.S. and that there is a fast form which is authentic. In actuality, there is a slow form AND a fast form (which is lesser known). The article is pushing the fast form to the exclusion of the slow form, which is wrong. I don’t buy his statements about Yang Shou-Hou being suicidal either. All the stories I have heard about Yang Shao-Hou indicate that he was a legendary fighter who eventually died of natural causes.
Chud, you are so right. Yang Cheng Fu and his sons (except one) knew a fast form (or sets performed fast), and slow forms as well as various frames to practice them in. For people in the know, this is fact! Whoever says differently really doesn’t know what their talking about.
The people who usually trash Yang Cheng Fu on the Internet and elsewhere usually have an agenda of some type… like… my teacher learned the real knowledge, not the Cheng Fu knowledge… or… Yang Chengfu only studied for a couple of years, so how can he be highly skilled, but my teacher and his sifu are best because they learned such and such, and more and more crap - and on and on it goes… You see what I mean? It’s all nonsense and utter rubbish.
Here are some points that are closer to the truth:
In fact, there were many witnesses to Yang Chengfu’s prowess and skills. If some don’t buy those accounts, that’s their problem. Students, patrons, and other miscellaneous people in this early century saw it first hand. What that article and it’s alumni are saying is just the same old rehashed uninformed opinion about someone they never met. It’s always my teachers teacher said so and so… blah, blah, blah!! Most of this talk was and is based on jealousy, greed, and the need to feel special and important. The truth of the matter is YCF had a minimum of 25 years actual experience in practicing Tai Chi Chuan before he died. There was a small period of time when he left home, but in the end it came to about 25 years or more. Hell, even his son Yang Sau Chung (the oldest and most powerful of his sons) had 13 years or so of DIRECT training from Yang Chengfu and that is FACT. So… logically, if Yang Sau Chung had 13 years direct training with his father, and his father had anywhere from 12 to 15 years training before that, that would prove the amount of time the man was involved with TCC (I may be off a couple of years or so). Now, some could say.. well, just because he practiced all that time doesn’t mean he was any good - all i can say to that is … LOL.
That’s right Yangyang. Even though I am not Yang Chengfu lineage, my sifu’s sifu knew YCF and saw him do some amazing things. Also, YCF had the benefit as heir to the family system of inheriting all of his family’s written notes on Taijiquan. He definitely had serious skills and knowledge by anyone’s standards.
Hey, I’m not vouching for the historical accuracy of the article… I just said it was ONE version of the history… I was a little curious about what the reactions would be like though.
Hi Guys,
I actually started this thread, as I was (am) curious about respectively Yang Zhao Pen, son of Pan Hou, Who lived from 1872-1930 and Yang Zhen Sheng, son of Shao Hou, who lived from 1878-1939.
These contemporaries of Yang Cheng Fu (probably) were taught extensively in their fathers’ art and thus must have been accomplished masters. Yet all the attention has always been focussed on Yang Cheng Fu!
Again, does anybody have any info on this?
Thanks,
Francesco
(I practice Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan from the lineage of Yang Sau Chung)
Yang Family Tai Chi Discussion Board
http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi?action=intro&BypassCookie=true
Might be of some help.
Hi Adrian,
Thank you for the kind suggestion. However, I already tried it
See: http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000110.html
Even on the Yang Family website, I did not even get 1 reply!
Francesco
Francesco, that’s probably because that’s Yang Zhen Duo’s website. He is the “figure head” for the Yang family, but he really had very very little connection with his father, his uncles, and his older brothers. His training was mainly from the Fu’s and other miscellaneous players. The Yang family was split apart and they didn’t all get to share “the knowledge.”
OK - thanks for the info on this site. I was taken with its simplicity - still, you never know where the next break will come from - I assume you have tried emptyflower? I practice old Yang, but know very little about ‘who’, ‘where’, or ‘when’ it was conveyed to my teacher - but then, Chinese lineages can be very secretative. I am surprised no one answered you on that board, as many eminent taiji practitioners from around the world visit regularly. Unless, of course, the board runs somekind of policy of not mentioning other Yang lineages - if that is the case, it is all rather sad. I know that transitions can be missing or altered in differing Yang patterns, and the way qi is defined and manifest. I like the academic work of Douglas Wile - his Tai Chi Ancestors, and Yang Secret Transmissions are very good. I hope your search progresses well.
Thanks.
I removed my post because you are correct. I posted hastily and didn’t read the original post correctly.
Having said that, while I have made attempts to engage in the study of lineage, I find the area boring and of little practical use.
Pah indeed.
Hello,
The people who usually trash Yang Cheng Fu on the Internet and elsewhere usually have an agenda of some type… like… my teacher learned the real knowledge, not the Cheng Fu knowledge… or… Yang Chengfu only studied for a couple of years, so how can he be highly skilled, but my teacher and his sifu are best because they learned such and such, and more and more crap - and on and on it goes… You see what I mean? It’s all nonsense and utter rubbish.
Every art has this stuff. Petty politics! I agree with you!
What is Taiji anyhow?
How many people all over the world do Taiji and never Sink The Chi? Millions!
So, if anyone wants to analyze the quality of someones Taiji then all they need to do is ask them what it cultivates, can they reproduce it and if they can demo it!
Peng is Core!
Without the Peng its like Yi Chuan without the Hun Yun. Do you cultivate your body so that you build the Peng which in turn allows you to have all those nice goodies you read so much about like Ting Jing etc or not?
Last week I had a discussion with a 20 year Yang Taiji guy who repeated the common Yang family protocol about Chen Man Cheng. He told me:
Unless you do the 108 you are not doing Taij!
I aksed him to describe the process his body went thru during the cutlivation and to describe his internal make/chi he has achieved from all that 108 training? I feel the tingling here and there!
Typical!
Funny thing is we were at Fong Ha’s seminar and Fong Ha is the perfect example. Did Taiji for a long long time. Asked his teachers how come he cant Fajing and they told him do the form more. :eek: Tranlsation! The sifu was not going to tell him how to Cultivate the Puppet String/Equilibrium base Peng art. Lau Sing in NY is another perfect example. Trained with the Yang family but neither him nor Fong Ha got much until they started training Standing as the base. Lau sifu mentioned that in Yang family the Wuji is the most neglected training.
Cai Song Feng in Shanghai is the King of Push Hands. What does his Yang Taiji consist of:
Wuji Zhuang
Yin Yang Qi Gong
Grasp Birds Tail
Push Hands
Here is a clip of Chen Man Cheng doing Fajin. Perhaps those who want to insult Yang Cheng Fu or other achievers can send in a clip of themsleves, classmates or their Sifu’s demonstrating the Fajing!
http://www.omogenia.com/~steve/cheng1_ISDN.mov
If you cant then its all talk or Sifu Says!
BTW: Fong Ha when asked about CMC said this:
Anyone who talks bad about him is just jealous! He taught a number of qualified instructors, wrote good books and promoted Taiji for all to benefit from.
Look forward to seeing the clips!
Peace,
Right on Jim. I’m trying to do more standing also. BTW, that CMC clip is the best clip I’ve ever seen of him. Good peng energy!!!
Hello,
Thanks!
Yes! That clip is awesome! My sifu gave me the Link a while back but I watch it all the time! I have tried to play devils advocate with it but still cant say anything other than its great!
Even if the guy pushed off him there is absolutely NO WAY anyone will pick up that kind of momentum unless something projected him with great Shock/Force.
If anyone thinks I am wrong about the Push Off possibility being not accurate then please show us a demo producing the same results.
The “Forgotten Side” of Yang family art is the Basic GONG! Nothing more, Nothing less. 
Respect to those who have cultivated the Taiji enigine!!
Peace,