Originally posted by rubthebuddha props to them for pushing it, but very much of it did look like a chain punch fest. i can’t say much more than two years experience, if that, because i don’t recall a single elbow being used, much less regular chi sau. also, WT teaches chin na starting at around 2½ years or so, and i didn’t see any of that, either.
Watch the clip again. One fighter threw about 5 downward elbows to ward off a takedown. (This is about 2 fights after the fight where the guy loses his headgear). Of course the takedown might have gone better if the attacker had stuck to trying to take him down instead of stopping and going for body punches. Also I did see a few guys use the “Wing Chun entry technique” seen in the first part of the dummy form.
i stand corrected. i have to admit a slight giggle when i first saw that helmet fly off like a tire in an autoracing accident.
i’m going to side with merryp on the sparring too early/not early enough argument. while developing the best technical skills possible is extremely important, for reasons of protecting oneself, i would rather have the skills and experience i’ve gained in sparring now. i feel i’m better off defending myself with decent technique and experience with sparring than i would be with just good technique and little experience with using it while sparring.
Actually Merryprankster, Alpha Puppy falls into the camp of not sparring at all, or have you changed your mind again AD? He has surpassed the need for testing his skills and now teaches the WC youngsters what real fighting is all about.
I’m with Renee, atleast they are doing it.
MerryP - have you ever come into contact with any good wing chun? or any other good ‘internal’ CMA for that matter
I think many of the internal guys would disagree highly that WC is internal.
I’ve come in contact with some San Shou guys (I was impressed) but no WC guys beyond a couple or four I met in the prep room at a fight. He did reasonably well to be honest (kickboxing). Once the guy noticed he was keeping his right hand low though, it was beat down city, but other than that, he did well. Saw some excellent forward pressure and some nice kickcatches and dumps.
Alpha, friendly disagreement–no harm done. I have a feeling we disagree probably on only when and frequency with respect to sparring.
Zhuge, basics are relative, but only to a point. Give the guy his basic principles, basic applications, his basic footwork, and let him go play if you’re reasonably confident he won’t hurt himself.
The bottom line is that to me it’s more important to train away flinch response and the shock of getting whacked as soon as possible. Great technique means crap if you’re a bit shocked at what just happened when somebody hits/kicks you as hard as they can, flush. And it’s something you have to regularly do–not something that you can do once or twice and go “ok.” But that’s my opinion.
Nobody here or in any other style is doing anything that special
rubthebuddha–careful, you’ll get yourself a bad name
Originally posted by Merryprankster
Zhuge, basics are relative, but only to a point.
“The point” is relative as well. It differs from style to style, teacher to teacher, and individual to individual. I’m not disputing the notion that sparring is a vital apect of training with regards to self defense. The point of difference is the definition of the correct time time to spar. I happen to agree that it should be “as soon as possible” as well, but we have different definitions of “possible.”
Originally posted by Merryprankster Because the question is actually more about training methods at this point, vice doing WC correctly.
…
Secondly, it’s a public forum. Tough.
OK.
My post came off harsher than I intended anyway.
I am still curious though. Why do you post on the WC forum?
My take on the video clips:
I don’t want to criticize anyone’s skill.
I just think they should take the helmets off.
It’s protecting them a little too much.
In this particular instance, I saw a link to sparring clips. So I went. Like most people in the MA’s I’m interested in watching people spar. One thing led to another.
I never once knocked them beyond saying they look like beginners. And they do. It DOES look like a slapfest. But that’s not an insult because they’ll learn, and that’s exactly what I said. They’re out there DOING it, which is more than I can say for many.
We call new wrestlers fish–that’s what they look like, flopping around. It only becomes an insult if, after years of experience, we still call you one
I too wish they’d remove those headgear. I’m all for open face headgear though. They do an adequate job and the experience is far more…immediate.
I would never, however, comment on the technical aspects of what they are doing, unless they were defending takedowns (just for the record, elbows to the back of the head don’t cut it, most of the time). I can’t offer to correct any perceived errors within a WC context, so there’s no point.
Sparring should be a regular part of your training. Maybe not everyday but often. We just had a really meek guy in our dojo knock down a black belt. It’s like MP said it’s important to train away flinch response and the shock of getting whacked, this guy did and finally moved onto hitting back. His form still sucks but I think he can handle himself better now that he crossed that line.
Originally posted by Merryprankster
[B]In this particular instance, I saw a link to sparring clips. So I went. Like most people in the MA’s I’m interested in watching people spar. One thing led to another.
I never once knocked them beyond saying they look like beginners. And they do. It DOES look like a slapfest. But that’s not an insult because they’ll learn, and that’s exactly what I said. They’re out there DOING it, which is more than I can say for many.
We call new wrestlers fish–that’s what they look like, flopping around. It only becomes an insult if, after years of experience, we still call you one
I too wish they’d remove those headgear. I’m all for open face headgear though. They do an adequate job and the experience is far more…immediate.
I would never, however, comment on the technical aspects of what they are doing, unless they were defending takedowns (just for the record, elbows to the back of the head don’t cut it, most of the time). I can’t offer to correct any perceived errors within a WC context, so there’s no point.
Does that make any sense? [/B]
Yes, perfect sense. I understand where you’re coming from.
From my POV, I don’t see anything wrong with sparring as early as possible. But I don’t really see much point in complimenting them for doing sparring either. People in WC and in other arts are doing sparring so they’re not special.
It’s kinda patronizing actually. Any boxer or kickboxer would expect a better standard from a 1 year beginner in their art. But because it’s WC, these guys are congratulated just for putting clips on the internet.
Not patronizing really. I think it’s just sort of a “great to see that people are sparring” in an era where so many people don’t, you know?
And yeah, boxers and kickboxers would expect better. But that’s because WC is SOOOOOOO much more ‘advanced’ and it takes SOOOOOOO much longer to learn to fight with it
You can always spar – just find someone to spar with. Merry you seem to be looking for some sanction from WC that formally declares “Sparring is Good.”
You could go to a MA supply store and see if you can find a badge that says “World Wing Chun Sparring Society” on it (beside the dragon logo) and sew it on your jean jacket.
Seeing as I don’t do WC, I don’t think it would be appropriate for me to wear such a patch.
Secondly, I don’t need a WC sanction. I know sparring is good. First question I’d ask at any school I was looking at “Do you spar?” The second would be “I’d like to watch a sparring session/class before I consider signing up, is that ok?”
Originally posted by Merryprankster And yeah, boxers and kickboxers would expect better. But that’s because WC is SOOOOOOO much more ‘advanced’ and it takes SOOOOOOO much longer to learn to fight with it
I don’t think anyone used that as an excuse for the performance in the clips.
As shown by various posts here, a lot of WC people did expect a bit better than that.
Hi Merry Prankster
You seem to be well grounded in fighting arts. I know you place a lot of importance on sparring, which is good. However if for some reason you ever did want to try W.C I wouldnt restrict your search to only schools that spar. You can still apply what youve leant by sparring outside class time with fellow students or your own sparring buddies.
From what Ive seen in different W.C schools, the w.c schools that dont spar are often of a higher standard than those that do.
On your part there would need to be a leap of faith. The best way is to go to as many schools as you can. Dont leave if they dont spar, stick around and see what they can do.
I understand your points. But if that’s the case–no class time, or open mat time devoted to sparring–then the instructor needs to make it VERY CLEAR that what they are learning will be next to useless if they don’t go out to spar with people.
Secondly, it’s just ****ed inconvenient. Most people don’t wander around from MA school to MA school making sparring contacts. I get around a bit in the local MA scene and have no more than 4 partners that I have met, outside of my school affiliated partners, that I could spar with.
Edmund, I was making a joke… easy…
Secondly, I don’t really know why they expected better out of beginners. I don’t judge by “how long have you been training?” I judge by that, plus sparring experience. These guys are beginnners from a whacking each other around perspective.
Thing is, the reason boxers/kickboxers would “expect better,” is because by the end of 9 months, you’ve seen your fair share of sparring rounds. In the little bit of boxing I did, I started sparring after about 6 weeks. That was three times a week, between 2 and 3 rounds per session. That adds up to a fairly significant amount of sparring over 9 months. Not a ton mind you, and I’d probably just hurt myself if I ever tried to use it instead of my takedowns, but I did learn to stay cool in the middle of a flurry, not lose my structure, and counter attack…
Even if I never could hit the 6’4" ******* who was my “usual” partner.
Thats a ‘no’ then. Kickboxing with WC shapes is still kickboxing.
If you havent experienced good wing chun (without the kickboxing + grappling tinted goggles), then you wont be able to understand why sparring is so counter-productive, and your views are entirely justified.
The bottom line is that to me it’s more important to train away flinch response and the shock of getting whacked as soon as possible
There are a lot better ways of training it away than sparring. More importantly, there are other natural responses that must be trained away before one can become an effective WC fighter, that are only reinforced by sparring.
Nobody here or in any other style is doing anything that special.
Are you sure about that? i suspect you may have to broaden your horizons…
