Someone smells coffee!
Usually when someone is delighted about something, one develops a thick skin and say to himself, “I’m so delighted to be here.”
RR - You are so vulnerable that you cannot help being touched by your world.
Humm…
?
How was the HFY workshop in Ohio?
two thumbs up
The seminar was excellent! I have a deeper appreciation for kiu sao and a deeper understanding of its concepts and the principles behind the concepts relative to the hung fa yi system. Then 3 of the different timeframes of engagement were discussed in detailed which I consider a must read chapter for all practictioners from the forth coming book. Then a lot of knowledge and kung fu moduk was shared among many and it was all good.
Workshop
Hi all,
I thought the seminar was way underpriced!!! There must have been MONTHS worth of information that was shared in those three days… Master Gee, Master Meng, Master Shulz, and Master Loewenhagen have given to us and the non-HFY members that attended, a landmark presentation on Kiu Sao, and the fundamental difference between Kiu Sao, Chi Sao, and Saan Da. We also have a much greater understanding of the process in learning and progressing through the Kiu Sao in the HFY system.
Many of the non-HFY members from other schools acknowledged HFY’s uniqueness (some very enthusiastically) and found the levels of Kiu Sao ‘experience’ to be most efficient in response and delivery. We all had a terrific time experiencing Master Gee first-hand on how the system is taught, and answered a big question of why HFY consistently leaves no room for challenges or ‘What if?’ scenarios. The answers were truly efficient.
However, we all learned that to really understand and appreciate this is to experience the system first-hand (through direct interaction). There is simply no other way, and I’m sure all who attended can attest to this fact. Much History, Philosophy, and Combat were all given exclusive attention throughout the 3 day seminar. Not much time for sleep though :)… Thanks to all who attended.
-Savi.
who is master shulz?
Planet WC - This is Sifu Shulz web site. I assure you he is a true gentleman and accomplished martial artist.
-David
For those who attended we know Bloodgod is having some fun.
As a student of Wing Chun I found the material presented to be very interesting and presented in a fairly clear manner.
Though it took me a little while to get the language used by the HFY family to describe their art, I found it had a very standardized, comprehensive method that had a principle or rule to describe the way everything functioned within the HFY context.
While the focus of the HFY system may be different from other systems of WCK it is defiantly within the family.
I wish that the seminar might have had a broader range. Though the focus was on Kiu Sau and the ideas of Chi Sau and San Da were discussed, the latter two points were neither explored nor demonstrated in a manner that gave me a clear impression of how the art functioned as a whole.
I really must recommend that those that can travel to a workshop or even make an effort to meet one of the HFY instructors personally will probably be much better off then trying to grasp their language and art via the internet.
Furthermore everyone was very friendly and open. I was hopping to Chi Sau with Mike as we usually do at gatherings like this but we did not really have time.
Thank you to Sifu Meng, Loenhagen (sp sorry) and Sifu Gee for their openness and hospitality.
I hope that in the future if any of the new friends I made are in San Diego or LA they e-mail me so we can meet for tea or a workout.
David McKinnon
Master of the sleepy jetlag
thanks to David and all other visitors
Originally posted by Mckind13
[B]For those who attended we know Bloodgod is having some fun.
As a student of Wing Chun I found the material presented to be very interesting and presented in a fairly clear manner.
Though it took me a little while to get the language used by the HFY family to describe their art, I found it had a very standardized, comprehensive method that had a principle or rule to describe the way everything functioned within the HFY context.
While the focus of the HFY system may be different from other systems of WCK it is defiantly within the family.
I wish that the seminar might have had a broader range. Though the focus was on Kiu Sau and the ideas of Chi Sau and San Da were discussed, the latter two points were neither explored nor demonstrated in a manner that gave me a clear impression of how the art functioned as a whole.
I really must recommend that those that can travel to a workshop or even make an effort to meet one of the HFY instructors personally will probably be much better off then trying to grasp their language and art via the internet.
Furthermore everyone was very friendly and open. I was hopping to Chi Sau with Mike as we usually do at gatherings like this but we did not really have time.
Thank you to Sifu Meng, Loenhagen (sp sorry) and Sifu Gee for their openness and hospitality.
I hope that in the future if any of the new friends I made are in San Diego or LA they e-mail me so we can meet for tea or a workout.
David McKinnon
Master of the sleepy jetlag [/B]
David,
Very glad to hear that despite the jet lag you made it back to San Diego safely. Although we didn’t get an opportunity to train together, I really enjoyed talking with you at the seminar and over lunch.
I am glad that you found the workshop informative, especially since you travelled so far. You make a valid point about your preference regarding the breadth of the seminar. I am not speaking for Sifu Meng or Sigung Gee, but in my experience a single weekend is never enough time when you are talking about exposure to an entire system. So you have to decide how you are going to trade off between breadth and depth. If you go for breadth and sacrifice some details, people may feel that you were not being open or sharing enough detail. Even worse they may miss the deeper points that you were trying to make. Also, the broader the discussion, the more time required to get past the language/terminology issue of which you spoke. The quicker you get past this and on to communication via physical expression and direct experience the better IMHO.
My impression was that Sigung Gee’s focus on kiu sau in depth allowed us to see (via specific detailed examples) how the Hung Fa Yi system explicitly take into account three-dimensional space, time, and energy. Isn’t that what so many internet people have been asking for? I give you a lot of credit for travelling so far and being open to both sharing your Wing Chun and learning about ours. Rest assured that I will definitely look you up if I am anywhere near southern CA. Best wishes.
Andy Kalish
Rochester, NY
–As a student of Wing Chun I found the material presented to be very interesting and presented in a fairly clear manner.
Though it took me a little while to get the language used by the HFY family to describe their art, I found it had a very standardized, comprehensive method that had a principle or rule to describe the way everything functioned within the HFY context.–Mckind13
**Unlike this jerk Bloodgod. You have a sense that you’re there properly. Thank heavens you’re flexible.
we must remember bloodgod demonstraits his own suffering.
For those interested in honest and mature discussion. We must understand that insults and such post are just demonstrations of a lack of respect for the informations. This lack of respect stems from a lack of understanding. So instead of learning more a child like response is called up as a defense mechanism. This is evidence of suffering. Suffering in fact that is his own. 
Dave thankyou for your input. I have to agree with Andy that there was a load of information presented that required various details called to the attention of the practitioners. Keep in mind part of the goal was to give those that attended a complete grasp of the progressions and an understanding of kiu sau. Chi Sao and Saan da will have thier very own set of specific details and progressions. With that in mind a single weekend would not be near the amount of time required to cover these subject. I’m sure these subjects will be covered in the future. It was a pleasure to meet you face to face. 
Alright,
so for everyone involved with this seminar, what is the ‘clear origin of HFY chi sao’, which Chango claimed would be revealed at it?
BTW- Chango, as a totally neutral observer, you do far more damage to your cause with your discourse than you could by simply staying quiet. Bloodgod’s offending post (since deleted), while abrasive in tone, raised some very valid questions about the lineage claims of your art in light of what is known about multiple other branches. Either plagerism or parallel evolution has taken place, and precious little evidence or even anecdote has been presented to support the latter’s case.
Later,
Andrew
Andrew
Originally posted by AndrewS
[B]Alright,
so for everyone involved with this seminar, what is the ‘clear origin of HFY chi sao’, which Chango claimed would be revealed at it?
BTW- Chango, as a totally neutral observer, you do far more damage to your cause with your discourse than you could by simply staying quiet. Bloodgod’s offending post (since deleted), while abrasive in tone, raised some very valid questions about the lineage claims of your art in light of what is known about multiple other branches. Either plagerism or parallel evolution has taken place, and precious little evidence or even anecdote has been presented to support the latter’s case.
Later,
Andrew [/B]
Andrew,
This past weekend’s seminar which was held at the Ving Tsun Museum was primarily focused on the history, nature, and purpose of Kiu Sao. To understand the origin of HFY Chi Sao, you must first understand Kiu Sao. Kiu Sao predates the birth of the Weng Chun Tong in the Southern Shaolin Temple. 5 examples of Shaolin arts make use of Kiu Sao: Dragon, Mantis, Baak Mei, Chi Sim Weng Chun, and Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun. Each expression of Kiu Sao varies in accordance to its role in the particular style of combat.
There is a major distinction between Kiu Sao and Chi Sao. Kiu Sao addresses ARM structure and energy. HFY Chi Sao addresses WRIST position within the framework of the Time and Space Concept. Both have their own timeframe during combat.
The Time and Space Concept arose during the fall of the Ming Dynasty through the efforts of both Shaolin Scholars and Ming Military officers collaborating their knowledge of human physiology and combat stragety over time to design a system of fighting based on the Time and Space Concept in accordance with human structure. Once you understand the TSC it is very clear when Kiu Sao is neccesary, and when Chi Sao is neccesary. Unless you come up against a highly skilled fighter, Kiu Sao is all you will need. If your opponent can defeat your Kiu Sao then Chi Sao is neccesary.
The Time and Space Concept is solely unique to HFYWCK. Chi Sao did not exist before the formation of the Weng Chun Tong; only Kiu Sao. HFY Chi Sao evolved from Kiu Sao experience in the Time and Space Concept. Again, I am referencing HFY Chi Sao and NOT today’s Wing Chun Chi Sao. Does this address your question properly?
Thanks,
-Savi.
Hey Savi,
to me, this sounds as if kiu sao refers to setting up a bridge, chi sao to changes which occur while you are making a bridge.
As much as technical questions interest me, my original point was historical, not technical.
If you want to distinguish between your chi sao and that of others, put up a couple of clips and show how you do it, and what structures you use. My understanding is that the tan/bong/ fook platform is a relatively recent development- something which many people have independantly asserted, and something which is born out by extant supporting information, comparing lines which have split off at various times.
Single arm chi sao is a Yip Man training innovation from his arrival in Hong Kong.
Formalized chi gherk was developed by Leung Sheung and others in Hong Kong.
My understanding is that you claim to have all these things in your art.
Where do they come from, when do they date from, who developed them, and who has learned them next to Garrett Gee?
My understanding is that HFY came off the Red Junks and evolved in isolation from the rest of Wing Chun. Is this a fair portrayal of your line’s history?
Later,
Andrew
Kiu Sao addresses ARM structure and energy. HFY Chi Sao addresses WRIST position
Isn’t the wrist part of the arm?
The HFY discussion is sloppy and vague—because good teachers in any line will or should correct arm structure and wrist usage
of students anyway.
And time and space issues,arm structure and wrist positions rain on us all.
Kiu usually refers to the bridge arm- which of course has to be trained correctly as in chum kiu- otherwise the chi sao will be sloppy.
I am glad that the HFY posters enjoyed their own workshop-
but if the evolution or history of Garret Gee’s art was discussed-
surely after the announcements and reports- a clear and understandable history and summary of the principles would emerge in the process- which is not yet the case. After all this is a
wing chun discussion list. By discussing we have come to know quite a bit about how different lineages in wing chun do things-
their similarities and differences. Nota 100% but quite a bit.
It is clear that we have a limited form of comunitcation.
Hello Andrew,
<snip> BTW- Chango, as a totally neutral observer, you do far more damage to your cause with your discourse than you could by simply staying quiet. Bloodgod’s offending post (since deleted), while abrasive in tone, raised some very valid questions about the lineage claims of your art in light of what is known about multiple other branches. Either plagerism or parallel evolution has taken place, and precious little evidence or even anecdote has been presented to support the latter’s case.
– From your post it is clear that you are not really a “totally neutral observer” LOL! I cannot see anything but the intent to insult HFY from his post. I think if you see the consistancy of the HFY system you will see how the information can speak volumes.
Yuanfen,
<snip> The HFY discussion is sloppy and vague—because good teachers in any line will or should correct arm structure and wrist usage
of students anyway.
And time and space issues,arm structure and wrist positions rain on us all.
Kiu usually refers to the bridge arm- which of course has to be trained correctly as in chum kiu- otherwise the chi sao will be sloppy.
— first action of a lazy student is to blame the teacher! then he blame the subject matter! You will find Yuanfen that your statement “good teachers in any line will or should correct arm structureand wrist usage” demonstrates your lack of knowlege on the HFY system. This system requires precise experiences and understandings. this is why a teacher of HFY can correct students “structure and wrist usage” with only a reference to the formula. if that is not precision then maybe you can explain what is? LOL! Now as far as time and space let me say of course we all are affected by “time and space” that is the beauty of it. It affects everything in reality. Just so that the term isn’t so vague for you I will say that HFY identifies the most focussed time and space for everything in the system. So yuan fen you can have what ever you want in your practice in what ever time and space you would like to have it in. But until you realize what the most focussed time and space is you will have the freedom to like and dislike what ever you want. As they say my friend ignorance is bliss! ( I don’t mean this as an insult) If you do not know the anything is exceptable.
<snip>Kiu usually refers to the bridge arm- which of course has to be trained correctly as in chum kiu- otherwise the chi sao will be sloppy.
— So if you do not have a precise frame of reference for your Chi sao then of course anything that envolves a bridge can be chi sao. in fact if you do not have precise criteria to define tan, bong, Fook etc… for example any out stretched hand with the palm pointing up is a tan sao. But in HFY the criteria is much more precise and demanding in structure, space, and preformed in only one focused time frame. Any thing less is cannot be tan sao. Sure you can have different tan saos in a less focussed state in refference to time and space. but it can be challenged and destroyed on those basis. So when we say kiu we me a particular thing my friend and it is very different then chi sao. Maybe not what you call chi sao but what I call chi sao is a very focussed in nature. Again when we say specific “time and space” you should be able to understand that it cannot be explained in a forum or a still shot or experienced via mpeg. You must experience it to understand exactly what is meant. But of course I know you will not except this. So we continue to go in circles about why you cannot experience something via the internet format. But lets just keep in mind we do call it Cyber space. As good as it has become the term “Cyber” does seperate this space from reality. If not then where do we sighn up for Cyber Tia chi my mother in law wants to improve her flexibility. LOL!
Saat geng sau !
also please reread the history of HFY you have missed the boat sorta speak. It did not come from the Red boats.
Response to Chango in brackets:
Just so that the term isn’t so vague for you I will say that HFY identifies the most focussed time and space for everything in the system.
))Chango- just repeating the same general terms(focus,time, space) doesnt make anything clearer but is justa form of spamming))
So yuan fen you can have what ever you want in your practice in what ever time and space you would like to have it in. But until you realize what the most focussed time and space is you will have the freedom to like and dislike what ever you want. As they say my friend ignorance is bliss! ( I don’t mean this as an insult) If you do not know the anything is exceptable.
((Chango- I dont see how the above gibberish can be insulting))
But in HFY the criteria is much more precise and demanding in structure, space, and preformed in only one focused time frame.
((Again, just repeating the same assertion does not make it so))
Again when we say specific “time and space” you should be able to understand that it cannot be explained in a forum or a still shot or experienced via mpeg. You must experience it to understand exactly what is meant.
((Then why not keep the true HFY mysteries in the sanctum sanctorum rather than repeating the same stuff on the forum
if it cannot be explained on the forum?
And a group of HFY folks repeating the same thing doesnt help clarify things -right?)))
Onlya workshop can explain things
((Figured as much.)))
But of course I know you will not except this.
((Accept? What? The most serious and deepest of subjects
can have its basic epistemology stated though its content may take demonstration))
So we continue to go in circles about why you cannot experience something via the internet format. But lets just keep in mind we do call it Cyber space. As good as it has become the term “Cyber” does seperate this space from reality. If not then where do we sighn up for Cyber Tia chi my mother in law wants to improve her flexibility. LOL!
((Careful…good taiji folks have done a pretty good job explaining what they do- in addition to fairly openly showing it))
also please reread the history of HFY you have missed the boat sorta speak. It did not come from the Red boats.
((History? You mean the story?You must be directing it at someone else—because I said zilch about red boats. Other than San Francisco I dont know where HFY came from. Chango- I am not being difficult. You really have not done a good job in explaining things except for boring and bad attempts at sarcasm))
workshop
Yuanfen, is there a specific question you would like answered or is there some point or meaning to your post relative to the workshop?
canglong: I was responding to Chango’s long winded post.
But since you asked - how about anwering Andew S’s question, which is:
so for everyone involved with this seminar, what is the ‘clear origin of HFY chi sao’, which Chango claimed would be revealed at it?
Yuanfen, count your blessing today…
When people enter the landscape to learn something, people are obligated, I think, to pay attention rather than constantly to post questions. In other words, What old or new places would you visit? Is Sifu Richard’s school far away from Yuanfen’s house?