May I ask if there are any names of sets that may clue in to pre-Republican forms?
The version of Tibetan White Crane that I am learning is unique in that the sets are not all straight line like the ones coming from Cheung Kwok Wah or Chan Hak Fu. There are cross sets, and ones using circular footwork. We have a form called siu lau sing, which looks somewhat like Hop Gar Siu Lo Han in that it uses the side body approach.
[QUOTE=taichi4eva;1188527]May I ask if there are any names of sets that may clue in to pre-Republican forms?
The version of Tibetan White Crane that I am learning is unique in that the sets are not all straight line like the ones coming from Cheung Kwok Wah or Chan Hak Fu. There are cross sets, and ones using circular footwork. We have a form called siu lau sing, which looks somewhat like Hop Gar Siu Lo Han in that it uses the side body approach.[/QUOTE]
I don’t think the names are a clue because many of the names common to other styles were borrowed. You can find related sequences of moves in sets with different names among the various branches. Our white crane from Au Wing Nin has some names not common in other branches of TWC such as kau da kyuhn, tauh da kyuhn and muih fa johng, in part because he learned a lama style before learning from Ng Siu Chan. He apparently continued to teach the lama kyuhn that he learned previously while under the white crane banner.
The sets you learn in any time period reflect the interests of your teacher and are not what determines the system. This is particularly true of white crane and hop ga because the emphasis is traditionally on the training of core techniques and not on the particular sets learned.
The strait road drills are the older type of training but a sahp jih set is not necessarily modern just because of the cross pattern. Some teachers modified traditional line sets because they preferred the cross pattern. Personally I like the fact that almost all of our hop ga and white crane sets are strait road drills. It gives them a familiar flavor and sets them apart from other southern styles.
[QUOTE=taichi4eva;1188527]May I ask if there are any names of sets that may clue in to pre-Republican forms?
The version of Tibetan White Crane that I am learning is unique in that the sets are not all straight line like the ones coming from Cheung Kwok Wah or Chan Hak Fu. There are cross sets, and ones using circular footwork. We have a form called siu lau sing, which looks somewhat like Hop Gar Siu Lo Han in that it uses the side body approach.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, I am a bit curious on what your observation about the Cheung Kwok Wah sets being all straight is based upon.. mind to elaborate more?
Thanks
Hi GruBianca,
I may have overspoke, because I have no experience with the Cheung Kwok Wah lineage. This was just my personal observation of some of the sets I have seen on Youtube.
To jdhowland,
I just finished learning mui fa jeung and kou da. Is your kou da form done in a cross pattern? I was told by my sifu that this form was used to train throws.
[QUOTE=taichi4eva;1188906]To jdhowland,
I just finished learning mui fa jeung and kou da. Is your kou da form done in a cross pattern? I was told by my sifu that this form was used to train throws.[/QUOTE]
Ours is a straight line set in four roads. Only a few specific throws in our set. I see it as grappling and counter-grappling to set up throws.
You must be in a related system. I’ve heard that only Au Wing Nin lineage had those sets. Pleased to meet you Brother.
Muih fa johng/dai johng mui fa, mihn loi jam and our Kwan Dao set are the only lama sets we have that are not straight line drills.
[QUOTE=taichi4eva;1188906]Hi GruBianca,
I may have overspoke, because I have no experience with the Cheung Kwok Wah lineage. This was just my personal observation of some of the sets I have seen on Youtube.
QUOTE]
It`s ok,I was just curious to know what was your ground of opinionyou are right that on youtube you can find the usual sets but actually there are some other sets which encompass circular footworks in conjunction with the regular straight path.
Hi jdhowland,
May I ask what are the names of the Au Wing Ning sets? Thank you for the welcome, but I’m still not sure if we’re in the same family, lol. Is it the same name as the sets practiced by Steve Richards (siu hok yee, sei lo fun da, tau da, etc.)?
[QUOTE=taichi4eva;1189065]Hi jdhowland,
May I ask what are the names of the Au Wing Ning sets? Thank you for the welcome, but I’m still not sure if we’re in the same family, lol. Is it the same name as the sets practiced by Steve Richards (siu hok yee, sei lo fun da, tau da, etc.)?[/QUOTE]
No, not the same. David Rogers has Deng family Hop Ga. Au Wing Nin was Baahk Hok and not from any Hop Ga branch.
I made an assumption based on a quick reading of one of your posts and thought I saw similar forms in “mui fa jeung” and “kou da.” If the first has jeung=palms then we don’t have that. We have plum blossom posts sets. There are a number of sets that sound something like “kau da” meaning seizing/striking, etc.,. Ours is a seizing and joint-locking set.
Whatever the lineage, it’s still the same family–know what I mean? All recognized lama styles stem from Wong Yen Lum, Chu Chi Yu, and/or Wong Lum Hoi. Mind telling us who your sifu is?
[QUOTE=jdhowland;1189066]…
I made an assumption based on a quick reading of one of your posts and thought I saw similar forms in “mui fa jeung” and “kou da.” If the first has jeung=palms then we don’t have that. We have plum blossom posts sets. There are a number of sets that sound something like “kau da” meaning seizing/striking, head striking, etc.,. Ours is a seizing and joint-locking set.
[/QUOTE]
Hi John, when you speak of seizing and joint -locking sets are you referring to Siu Kam Na and Da Kam Na?
Here is my teacher’s lineage chart.
http://lionsroar.name/david_cox_lineage.htm
He is currently living in Bradford, PA.
To jdhowland,
Yes, I meant plum flower palm, not plum flower post. Interesting how even though the forms may not be related, the kou da form I was taught and yours seem to deal with throwing. There is a kam na set, but that’s higher level material that I have not gone through.
[QUOTE=Gru Bianca;1189071]Hi John, when you speak of seizing and joint -locking sets are you referring to Siu Kam Na and Da Kam Na?[/QUOTE]
No, not specifically. There are others. Our tin gong kyuhn, tau da, and iron chain have a fair amount of grappling techniques as well as kau da kyuhn. In my lineage we do not have siu kam na or da kam na. Even mihn leui jam set is based on a combination of grappling and striking.
Gru Bianca, do you have a kau da kyuhn in your lineage?
[QUOTE=jdhowland;1189084]No, not specifically. There are others. Our tin gong kyuhn, tau da, and iron chain have a fair amount of grappling techniques as well as kau da kyuhn. In my lineage we do not have siu kam na or da kam na. Even mihn leui jam set is based on a combination of grappling and striking.
Gru Bianca, do you have a kau da kyuhn in your lineage?[/QUOTE]
Hi John, if for Kau da Kyuhn you mean a specific set then I believe we do not have it as I have never heard it mentioned; I might be wrong though.
Have you ever interacted with Shifu Gary Abersold?
Here is the list of forms posted on his website.
http://lionsroartradition.weebly.com/reference.html
[QUOTE=jdhowland;1189066]No, not the same. Steve Richards has Deng family Hop Ga. Au Wing Nin was Baahk Hok and not from any Hop Ga branch.
I made an assumption based on a quick reading of one of your posts and thought I saw similar forms in “mui fa jeung” and “kou da.” If the first has jeung=palms then we don’t have that. We have plum blossom posts sets. There are a number of sets that sound something like “kau da” meaning seizing/striking, etc.,. Ours is a seizing and joint-locking set.
Whatever the lineage, it’s still the same family–know what I mean? All recognized lama styles stem from Wong Yen Lum, Chu Chi Yu, and/or Wong Lum Hoi. Mind telling us who your sifu is?[/QUOTE]
Greetings John,
I Hope this finds you and your family in great health and happiness.
Just a quick line re the above quote.
I’m not connected with Deng Family Hop-Gar - apart from a few cordial e-mail exchanges with David Rogers, I’ve never had any contact with them, but of courese. I hold them in the highest regard.
My line comes thru Chan Tat Fu of Hong Kong - who was a disciple of Au Wing Ning (for Lama and TWC). For Hop Gar, he was also a disciple of Wong Hop Lui (disciple to Wong Hon Wing) and Kong Tow (Disciple to Wong Yan Lum).
Chan Tat Fu refers to his branch as Sai-Jong-Hap-Gar-Si-Ji-Hao - the Hap refering not to ‘Hop’ but to ‘Join Together’ as in one family. The UK branch from him has developed independently for the last 40 years.
My own teacher called what he did Si-Ji-Hao (after Chan Tat Fu) but also used ‘Hop-Gar’ interchangably - as I do myself.
You mention a Tau Dr set, with a linear pattern, we have this set and I am told that it originates from Au Wing Ning.
My Hung Gar, (as you mention Deng Family) is entirely separate: and comes from Chan-Wai’s lineage (died in 1989) - this also includes his Bak-Pai Fut Gar.
Best Regards,
Steve Richards.
[QUOTE=TauDar;1191890]
I’m not connected with Deng Family Hop-Gar… [/QUOTE]
My apologies. I just realized I was thinking of both you and David Rogers and mixed up my post. Thanks for filling in the info.
btw: what’s your take on the meaning of “Tau Dar”? I was told that some of the names were passed down without being written and so different students have interpreted what they heard as being different words.
[QUOTE=jdhowland;1192240]My apologies. I just realized I was thinking of both you and David Rogers and mixed up my post. Thanks for filling in the info.
btw: what’s your take on the meaning of “Tau Dar”? I was told that some of the names were passed down without being written and so different students have interpreted what they heard as being different words.[/QUOTE]
No probelm John,
Tau Dar in our line is interpreted as ‘to steal the attack’ .
It’s a linear form, with a curved off-shoot that then turns back on itself to rejoin the linear path. It contains long and short hands, crane and ape division techniques, kicks, locks, throws. Featured footwork includes Tau-bo-faht (stealing steps), Yuan bo faht (ape steps) and Huang bo faht (bear walk steps) plus meridian stepping and variants on crane stepping with retracted and stretched Diu Mah stances. The stealng comes from ‘Jeet’ and ‘Sim’ and works on receiving/intercepting an incoming line, and working the bardo spaces in the opponents structure (Sim).
Cheers,
Steve.
May I ask what does everyone think are representative weapons of the Lama/ White Crane style?
Ex. southern mantis- staff
wing chun- staff, butterfly knives
[QUOTE=taichi4eva;1192313]May I ask what does everyone think are representative weapons of the Lama/ White Crane style?
Ex. southern mantis- staff
wing chun- staff, butterfly knives[/QUOTE]
I would say that the gim has a special symbolic place in the systems, representing the ideal of the “Hahp” or knight. Long staff is well represented, as practical and well-developed as any I’ve seen. Daan dou is more important than most other weapons for practical combat applications. We also have tiger fork, Gwan dou, saam jit gwan, bench, double knives, etc.,. I particularly like a white crane spear form that also becomes a two-man set (ying cheung vs. daan dou).
[QUOTE=TauDar;1192298]…Tau Dar in our line is interpreted as ‘to steal the attack’ .
[/QUOTE]
As in “tauh bouh.” Thanks. That’s our interpretation, as well. I once saw someone refer to “head strike,” and thought it didn’t make sense.