good post Dave… to me thats the difference between training ‘with’ some people from other systems and adding to your knoweledge of how YOUR skill works, and actually ‘crosstraining’.
well, gotta go 
david
Yes Red5, I don’t want to learn another art, just distill other arts and add the principles in. Well, if I could press a button and know some other art, that’d be great, but I’m not going to spend time learning some other forms or anything like that. I’m too busy practicing Wing Chun. Also, obviously I’m not a traditionalists, nor are my goals exactly the same as traditional goals. For instance, I like to participate in low-key sport fighting.
The Round Kick, Thai style - I like it. But what if your in a self-defense situation, and you swing and miss? He moved his leg? Your opponent might step in and attack your back. Or maybe your opponent took the kick, grimaced through the pain, and just kept coming in, and you haven’t gotten yoursef off of his line of attack. That’s why the kick goes against WC principles, it’s overextending yourself. In a sporting situation, it’s an acceptable risk, if your in a street-fight against an unskilled opponent, probably still an acceptable risk. Street fight against a skilled opponent - the focus of Wing Chun - not an acceptable risk.
Also, when you restrict kicks to the groin, the round kick becomes a more useful second option. This is a more merciful kick than kicking someone in the groin, and is a good one where you don’t really want to hurt the guy.
-FJ
Just wanted to adjust my statement regarding the round kick, above: Not the best kick to lead with it a self-defense situation against a mobile opponent. However, if you are already engaged and the opening presents itself, a quick round kick with the front leg against the opponent’s thigh or midsection can be a good option. As long as you don’t rely on this stopping the fight.
-FJ
FGX - nice rumor mongering about Sifu Chu… Maybe if you had a name for yourself in the MA world I would make something up for you. If its true tell me the other teachers name, you’re probably his student though and would lose face if someone wrote or called him asking about the story or you 
Now to the real post at hand…
Wing Chun is a long-range art, a close range art and a mid range art. It is also a short bridge art and that’s where everyone gets confused. Any art can only strike as far as the practitioners’ bridge will reach, and for power, needs to penetrate to hurt the opponent so a certain distance needs to be obtained. Once we have closed the distance we stay there, other arts move in and out and have to traverse these so imaginary ranges every time they move to strike.
I believe Wing Chun contains a circular kick like a roundhouse or Thai, but not the same. It is in some of the circular stepping and knife forms. Its form and function are different because of WC structure and strategy.
The problem with mixing the MA is that there is usually a dichotomy in strategy. For instance, WCK emphasizes moving in, smothering, pressing, capturing, controlling etc. Bjj strategy is to close in and take the opponent to the ground. How do we reconcile these two strategies?
David
WCK closes
For instance, WCK emphasizes moving in, smothering, pressing, capturing, controlling etc.
That sounds like a BJJ strategy. And WC has methods of downing your opponent (which actually BJJ didn’t have much of until they started borrowing takedowns from wrestling, etc.).
Receive what comes, be it an opportunity to hit or to takedown. Reconciliation!
Wing chun is a good complete system. But I also do white crane hungar for different approaches and kicks. Also grappling arts help
mixing
you mix wing chun with anything else and you’ll never improve
I’m at a loss to understand why you’d want to add another style to your training, especially to fight long range? Why would you want to fight long range, for a start? I for one don’t want to stand at a nice range for my opponent to lay some kicks into my side while I do the same to him, I want to move from whatever range I’m at to a range where I can strike the man and finish it. Certainly, use your range to your advantage, but that’s not what we’re discussing here (yes, I realise that sounds contradictory).
Do you feel that WC doesn’t encompass something that would make you a better fighter? Firstly you should think for yourself, and try to answer your question with your own knowledge of WC principles. Then I would suggest that you should look to your Sifu for explanations, and your Sifu’s Sifu, and so on, until you find the answer to your question. It will no doubt be in there somewhere.
I can’t help but think that Wong Shon Leung with his multitude of beimo wins never needed to add another style, and based on his physical stature, I can’t see how anyone else would need to. If something doesn’t work for you, or doesn’t feel right, then don’t give up and declare that it doesn’t work, if it’s in the system then there’s a reason for it. I have to agree with red5angels comments - you only add something if it’s purely for interests sake (in which case using it in a real situation is your own gamble), or if your understanding of WC isn’t deep enough. Instead of declaring that the style is missing something, try attaining WSL’s level of skill and understanding and then ask yourself the question again.
The roundhouse kick is a versatile and extremely useful kick which may WC strains ignore because it violates WC principles - in the minds of some at least.
Yes, in the minds of everyone that understands those principles. A fact isn’t going to change just because you ignore it. Practicing various styles of kicks may be useful when you’re preparing to deal with those kicks, but spinning or jumping or whatever kick you’d like to do that doesn’t move in a straight line will always lose out to my straight line kick. I’m surprised I have to mention this, I always thought it was a given
I don’t see why you need to train Muay Thai if you like the look of the Muay Thai roundhouse. Maybe train long enough to get the basic mechanics of it down, then just work it on the heavy bag and try to incorporate it into your sparring. The bit that you’d be missing by doing this would be how a roundhouse fits in with other Muay Thai techniques in combination, but since you’re not going to use those techniques you don’t need to worry about that.
You dont only need one style you take the best of each to compansate for others weak points And have your own perception of fighting. Wing chun has very few weaknesses but I also like the advantage of dim mak, and certian throws and grabs.
A fact isn’t going to change just because you ignore it.
That’s true. However, opinions are not facts.
that doesn’t move in a straight line will always lose out to my straight line kick. I’m surprised I have to mention this, I always thought it was a given
In theory or on an internet forum, maybe. In reality, things are not so clear cut. If throw a round kick off the bat, you MAY be able to beat me with a straight kick if we both have similar speed attributes. But when you include combinations, setups and timing, a curve can beat a straight and vice versa. Any boxer knows that THAT’s a given.
It’s pretty arrogant of you to suggest that only you have a real understanding of Wing Chun principles. It’s also arrogant, and dangerous, to suggest that they are the only game in town.
What anerlich said—hooks and uppercuts anybody? Hardly straight punches, but work just fine. Mostly, you don’t lead with them, but set them up–or counter with them (shudder as remembering hard right hooks to head…).
Theory is lovely–but real life doesn’t follow models. Using models to predict a fight is a lot like using them to predict the weather–useful within certain boundaries, but hardly foolproof.
Note that I am not talking about the violation of WC principles–can’t speak to that–just talking to “round” vice “straight” movements.
Hey Merryprankster!
Uppercuts…Chum Kiu form!
Hooks…Biu Gee form!
The straight line religion is only for the very basic level.Once you have some “mastery” of the defensives and offensives lines,you may add some curves in your arsenal!
(I love some curves!)
What OJ and MP said. The context was a roundhouse kick, but you also have circular leg movements in WC, per the sweeping movements in the dummy sets, stepping, etc.
For most people, a sidekick is faster than a front kick is faster than a roundkick (unlike some, my Sifu has experimental evidence, he measured it with a roomful of students using an Impax bag, and this was the overwheliming norm from rank beginner to elite). To develop full power in a sidekick, you need to fully extend the hips and face the supporting foot away from the target. For a moment, you have taken your centreline away from the opponent. Does this violate WC principles? That’s the way my sifu does it. Also the way TST’s student Jim Fung does it too, judging from the photo that used to open his web page.
If you’re in a position to launch a front or side kick when an adversary throws a roundhouse kick, assuming your response time is fast enough (not a given), you may be able to kick him fist. But if he’s smart, he’s only going to attack that way when you’re NOT in a position to counter kick. e.g. when you’re weighted on your front leg, when you’re up on one leg because he’s sidestepped one of your lightning straight kicks, etc.
Mechanical efficiency does not alway translate into combat effectiveness. The straight kick or punch might be faster (but only if you are good at it - that is hardly a given), but the roundhouse kick or hook has a greater margin for error because of its trajectory and generally speaking is harder to evade.
To paraphrase MP, reality has a way of stomping all over theories and models. With > 1 model, you have a greater chance of approximating reality, but it needs to be remembered that a map is not the terrain.
Mechanical efficiency does not alway translate into combat effectiveness.
..true, but its a good place to start.
So long as it doesn’t rule the roost.
dragontounge2 sez:
Wing chun has very few weaknesses but I also like the advantage of dim mak, and certian throws and grabs.
“Advantage”? Those are there in wing chun if you keep developing your wing chun with proper instruction.
Rill brought up Wong Shun Leung. Of course, WSL has stated very positive things about WC, it is a perfect art and such. But, remember that he LEARNED MUY THAI and competed in MT boughts? That he was a Muy Thai judge in Hong Kong? That during a challenge match, he finished off his downed opponent with a knee to the head, and some WC elders were criticizing him for using a non-classical technique? And his response was something like, the technique that works is the right technique to use?
Not that you have to add anything to classical Wing Chun. Just that, many have before, even Yip Man students, with decent to good results, so don’t feel so superior for sticking to the classical interpretation. This is NOT directed at all of you, just the close-minded.
-FJ
fajing
The WSL example is an application of wing chun not muy thai- where on the former the application involves taking the simplest route as he did. It is not an example of cross training. Wing chun is not dogmatic in its applications. The soundness and completeness of wing chun is in its distinctive structure, principles of motion, tming, mind set and principles of strategy. WSL was pointing towards non dogmatism and was not arguing for mixing other martial arts. Muy Thai does not have a monopoly on knees, nor boxing on fists, nor grappling on controls etc.
Chi sao BTW was pretty important to WSL.
Unfortubately, I see a decline in interest in continued devlopment of chi sao timing skills- which results in “defenses against…” you can fill in the blanks… a left jab, a hook, a grappler, a judoka.
In a real situation ones trained reflexes operating forma clear paradigm
takes over. there isnt time to analyse—this is a jab, that is a roundhouse… and bringing out the counter from the tool box.!!
WSL learnt muay thai & competed in muay thai bouts.
well that is news to me.
vts