I think your confusion, fgxpanzerz might lie in the fact that chinese arts are still chinese arts. Many of them were designed with the same sorts of principles and methods, and they all come from the same culture. This may give it the illusion that most arts have stole from the others. In many cases this may indeed be true but this is common throughout CMA. You can always point the arrow in any direction. For example, you state that wingchun stole from ChoiLi fut, Hung Gar, etc… what if I said that they stole from Wing Chun? Japanese arts some have some common ideas and principles as well. People often use what works, try to improve up on it, and reapply it. An art must grow, unfotunately most people who make contributions arent doing any good. It is rare when someone comes along and makes a change that sticks and works right without going against the grain. For example, adding Muy Thai might seem like a good idea for wingchun since wingchun is so close combat oriented. But you have to ask yourself why is that? Stuff should be asking him or herself that, why does it need to be added? Wouldnt the people who came up with the system have answered that in the first place? do you really think that after a few short years of studying an art you can make viable changes to it, because you see gaps?
Would you build a fence but leave some of the links or sections out because they arent as important? If the fence isnt complete how does it serve its purpose? If you were the first to build a fence, to keep your sheep from running away, woudl you only build part of fence? Would that make logical sense?
Stuff: you see a deficiency in WC kicking, I think maybe you are not an advanced student. Studying under Sifu Fong or another traditional Hong Kong guy, they often don’t teach you all about the kicks until you are well versed (up to 5 years, in HK!) in the stances, footwork and punches. This is just one approach, it has it’s validity but might not be your preference.
Wing chun has a variety of powerful kicks, and the footwork to deliver them. One good way to get in a kick from a distance, is to use the Exchange Step from the kicking section of Chum Kil. Opening your front foot and kicking from the back leg, is another way to kick from a distance, within the Wing Chun parameters.
I don’t know how others train, but when we do punching with stance turning, we fully extend our arm, while our torso faces 100% to the side. This is as long range as you can get with a punch, unless you overreach, and you would lose your balance.
Wing Chun is good for not overextending yourself.
That said, if you want to learn step-behind or skipping footwork, or flashy high kicks, I suggest you study TKD or JKD for 6 months. That’s all you’ll need to get the basics down–that is, if you instructor is not holding back information. I think that these highly-committed types of motion are no good against a skilled fighter, but they might help you take out several unskilled fighters, or keep you at a distance from someone with brass knuckles, etc.
I myself have studied TKD and currently study some JKD, for the training methods. The only non-WC kick I use, is the low round kick to the knee or thigh. This is good for wearing your opponent down, but might not be the best option in a quick streetfight. Oh yeah, I use knees, too, not sure how that fits into Wing Chun.
-FJ
stuff
You sound anxious- as far as kicking. IF you pay attention -where
you are learning - you will see the proper way of wing chun kicking- formidable- to be used when you need it. You first have to learn the wing chun platform and how to move and turn with it-
the kicks can go to many directions. Without a good platform-
you will have unstable foundations for kicking and can land on your head or be taken down by someone who senses imbalance.
Thanx alot everyone. I guess I’ll rethink things for a while. I’ll keep you guys posted on what I do.
gracias,
kung-fu stuff
So the other guy told Robert Chu(paraprasing ofcourse), “Ok. Train a woman in “pure” wing chun for a few years and then have her come kick my a$$.” She still hasn’t come to beat his a$$.
This proves nothing. Besides hearsay being inadmissible, do you really think Robert Chu or any other sane instructor is going to train a girl for five years to fight some (unnamed - was he a serious contender or just someone RC met in a bar?) guy he had a difference of opinion with? Seriously? Is any decent MA teacher going to waste his time and use a student in this way just to prove some silly point? And what other style could train a female to compete with a skilled male or another style anyway? Hmmm … maybe BJJ 
Most Chinese arts are mongrels anyway. Choy Li Fut was named so because it synthesised the three family styles after which it is named. One account of WC has it distilled by the Five Elders from the best of everything they practised before after the Shaolin Temple was attacked. While legendary, the implication is clear. We wouldn’t practice the pole unless Leung Jan had seen its value after fighting Wong Wa Bo.
There ain’t no such thing as a pure style.
I agree with Merryprankster. If you need to study >1 style, make them two very different ones. And get solid tech grounding in one first.
I don’t agree that practising >1 style will lead you to fight another person’s fight. It doesn’t follow logically.
Instead of you having one type of fight to try to make the other guy dance to, you now have choices.
If all you do is WC and you meet a better WC guy, goodnight. If all you do is wrestling and you meet a better wrestler, bye bye. As a multistylist you have the options of pulverising the wrestler and taking down and choking out the striker.
Self defense should be like an onion, many layers, not like an egg, one hard shell, which when cracked means all that is left is a gooey mess.
Wingchun is an aggressivley responsive art, not technique based
No offence, but so are most other arts at a high level. BJJ being one example. In Russian MA in particular, the concept of technique is absent and principle is all. Not saying WC is crap, just that you shouldn’t assume that it is automatically so much better than everything else just because. To assume that would IMO be complacent to the point of danger.
I think you are trying to write “Augustine”.
I would hope he did. My Sifu once tasked me to make up some sets to illustrate certain principles and develop related attributes. It was a worthwhile exercise which IMO every advanced level student should try.
but he never knew the original so he made up hiss own and said it was from yip man linage… this is what i ve been told. is this true?
Hi Anon- he of the Hung Fa Yi world.(profile)
You just heard wrong. Not untypical of VTAA kind of rumor peddling. I am sure not to peddle the rumor that HFY is a made up system. There are folks who are teaching wing chun who barely got out of the slt stage. In any case- is the name Ho Kam Ming familiar at all to you? Why not ask him sometime what he thinks of Augustine Fong. Fong spent many years with him and stays in touch.I am fairly sure that you are not familiar with the details of Ho Kam Ming’s forms or how he approaches teaching or he describes Yip man’s method of teaching him. The principles of YM’s forms are in Ho’s forms and the principles of Ho’s forms are also there In Fong’s forms. Some details in each case are different. In the making of an artist you dont paint by numbers.
On a particular style- painting, dancing and kung fu you go through an apprenticeship then if you are worth your salt you strike out on your own and benefit from your own additional experiences.Ho has his own signature on his forms and Fong has his on his forms. Some of the drills that Fong did in his Hong Kong days he has them in the forms. When Ho taught- he would teach one side and expect you to work on the mirror image of that section. Fong has both left hand side and right hand side. I will be very happy to have a discusion with on what you think are the concepts involved
in YM/Ho/Fong dummy work,…if you can hold up your end of the bargain. .Forms are texts- and teachers have their own comments, elaborations and notes on the margin. If you see Moy Yat’s first dummy book- of wich I have an autographed copy you will see that Moy Yat’s dummy form is similar through about two thirds of the way
of Fong’s form. Incidentally and by the way- Yip Man adapted the old buried dummy when he moved to Hong Kong. Why do I see Hung Fa Yi folks with the Yip man dummy? Piggybacking - marketing? bTW you are welcome to sticking to the pure wonders of Hung Fa Yi. You should nit do the Fong forms. Anonymity is a great way to pass on rumors- you should do even better on the VTAA list. Cheers Anon.
anerlich
The guy I’m refering to is a serious contender.
I can’t remember who said not to add two striking arts together and I have to say he (or she ) is absolutely right. Especially Muay Thai and Wing Chun. God knows I’ve had enough problems integrating the two.
Where I train we do a modified version of the roundhouse kick. Different to Muay Thai in that it’s not neccesarily a long range weapon (neither I suppose is Muay Thai’s roundkick) instead of kicking through the opponent like kicking a soccerball the force is directed up and through the opponent. When I was doing MT one of the favourite things to do was to “roll” the hip in such a way that the shin chopped downwards onto the thigh of the opponent. This way the shin chops up and through as well as striking and really disrupts your balance in a major way.
Anyone else know this one?
Hi straightblast: When i trained Muay Thai before meeting my Sifu that was one of my favourite techniques! It’s a very fast and powerful movement and really takes the persons balance.
Actually now i am training with my Sifu, i really wish i hadn’t trained in anything before 
I’ve only been training around 18 months and am still trying to ‘unlearn’ everything i have done before, so i can use the wing chun principles clearly. I’m starting to get there, but i guess theres no rush…
I would say that mixing striking arts can be very troublesome. For me before, i did Karate, Boxing/MT and Shorinji Kempo, and actually didn’t find much trouble swapping between the 2. But WC principles of punching are very different (to me anyway), so i have found some troubles there.
With grappling i’m not so sure. I did Aikido before also (for 5 years), and the footwork and principles are again very different. Actually i was mugged recently, and the Aikido training managed to protect me from harm which is great
Of course, no 2 people are the same, so you may have no problem. Just relaying my own thoughts and experiences…
My advice would be to stick with Wing Chun and see the richness that it has to offer. If you have any questions and problems, i’m sure the best thing to do is ask a Sihing or your Sifu
good luck with whatever you choose,
david
Re: sorry for the confusion
[QUOTE]Originally posted by fgxpanzerz
[B]let me restate what I tried to say earlier. Someone told me a story once by a guy. "
Don’t all fairytales start this way?
Don’t all fairytales start this way?
Ah, but this is a fairy tale about a serious contender, even though he doesn’t have a name.
Maybe he works for the CIA. Or maybe he’s wanted by the FBI.
Have we found Osama Bin Laden?:eek:
In any case, serious contender or not, the story proves nothing about the effectiveness or otherwise of Wing Chun. It’s just a “serious contender’s” opinion, and without a name his “seriousness” is just panzer’s opinion.
We do both angled round kicks, including the one where you roll the hip over.
That’s three people I’ve seen so far who say WC have everything you need, but have added the low round kick to it. Basically my original point regarding that kick,
Anerlich said - "I don’t agree that practising >1 style will lead you to fight another person’s fight. It doesn’t follow logically. "
I probably gave the wrong impression there. What I meant was that you are more apt in general to fight a person on thier terms then on yours. This is a generlizartion and with time and effort this can be broken but normally the more aggressive “dancer” is the lead. With multiple styles especially at different ranges, if he wants to fight long range and you know some long range stuff, you may choose to fight him at long range. Now what if while you were putting time and energy into several styles he was putting time and energy into one? My bet is his ability to do what he wants to do is more refined and he is better capable of delivering his payload. This again is a generalization but I think it is a possibility. I of course am taking this from the direction that you are fighting someone with training., Generally, if you have any sort of consistant training, MMA or not, against your average brawler you have the edge.
“No offence, but so are most other arts at a high level. BJJ being one example. In Russian MA in particular, the concept of technique is absent and principle is all. Not saying WC is crap, just that you shouldn’t assume that it is automatically so much better than everything else just because. To assume that would IMO be complacent to the point of danger”
Actually I agree. Most arts are not technique based, but more people then not get obsessed with techniques and dont learn to fight what comes. thats why you see so many of the if and or arguments. I do think the Wing chun encourages you to not get so focused on Wing chun but that of course might just be my experience with it so far. Of course I wouldnt assume that other arts arent good, but I study wing chun because it is best for me.
hmmm… i’m confused 
I don’t really see the distinction of ‘ranges’. The way i’ve always seen it you’re either at the right distance or you’re not. If you’re not, then you need to work on how to get there (I need a lot of work on it :D). What is one of the reasons chi sau is practised at that certain distance? So you get a natural feel of being in the right space to both attack and defend (?)
Would it not be more constructive to use what you have and apply it against people that use different methods, rather than learn so many things? Why play his game? (something you couldn’t know as well as if you had a more concise game of your own?) Of course, i’m no expert, these are just my thoughts at this moment in time…
Also i don’t agree with the round kick needing to be added. I trained it in MT and karate as well as shorinji kempo. I agree it’s a useful and powerful kick if you do it correctly. Of course i’m nowhere near learning kicking properly yet, but from what i have seen of kicking, WC has all it needs. ‘One kick finishes’ is a common saying, and used at the right time i can see why
david
I value getting exposure to other styles. Not just completing against them, but finding out how they work, and seeing if I can modify my fighting tactics to take advantage of a movement or principle. For instance, I don’t want to learn Tai Chi, what I want to learn is how to do Tai Chi with my Wing Chun. I want to learn how to do Hung Gar with my Wing Chun. I want to learn how to kickbox with my Wing Chun. I want to learn how to do Hsing-Yi with my wingchun. What I mean is, use the principles of these arts:
Tai Chi - learn to stick, follow, issue.
Hung Gar - learn to destroy limbs, use hard, tense forearms
Kick Box - deal with the restrictions of rules and gloves.
Hsing-Yi - insight on the vertical fist punch, forward stepping, and power delivery.
Let me see if I can explain myself further. I have a natural feel for Wing Chun after 3 years of training. The hand and arm shapes are automatic. I don’t want to learn a whole new set of hand shapes and footwork, I don’t see the point. Maybe something here, something there, but I’m not trying to completely change my style of fighting. What I want to do, is find out what other arts are doing, then see if I can produce the same effect out of my Wing Chun framework.
So it is like a progression, that leads back to Wing Chun. Kickboxing is a good example, because it’s something I’m learning now. I ask myself, can I slap, can I jerk, can I disperse, can I subdue, can I circle, can I ask, can I cut. The shape might not be exactly the same as the WC forms, but the principle is there, the mind is there. And it works.
I’m going to start working out with a Tai Chi guy, same thing. I want to see what this guy can do, then try to do it myself within my framework and with my tools.
P.S. I do recommend expanding your WC framework with a little bit of grappling. When you add this to your WC, you do it out of your Wing Chun. For instance, to perform an arm-lever, you might tan + punch against an incoming straight punch, to shake up the opponent, then go into your arm lever, or step behind for a rear-naked choke, or whatever. This is how my sifu teaches the grappling.
-FJ
Anerlich said
That’s three people I’ve seen so far who say WC have everything you need, but have added the low round kick to it.
Andrew, I dont know who the 3 are. I think wc conceptually is as through a sytem as far as i can see. My wc has lots of kicks- including a low “round” instep kick. Not really round and not muay thai kick—no real hip involvement. Not karate- no real waist-hip
involvement. Practiced straight out of YGKYM and its moving derivations.
joy
Dezhen, I agree, I dont really see ranges so much as ways. I do it the wing chun way, some other might do it the muy thai way. Its commone for people to refer to ranges but I think sometimes it confuses the issue.
Fa_Jing - I see what your saying, sort of. I dont think its a bad thing to study an art, just to mix it. Its a grey area because if you know more then one art arent you going to use both in a fight? Maybe, maybe not. I wouldnt anyway. Studying an art to see how you could work it with your wingchun is not a bad thing in my opinion, but often there can be some confusion and you end up down the path of mixed martial arts. Often people say a technique they like and want to use it.
To Know you opponent is to know yourself
Hi Red5
Exactly.
I’ve never tried to ‘learn’ another art, but spend a lot of time sparring and ‘Exchanging methods’ with friends from outside WC.
If you’ve seen it, or felt it you can have a better handle on how to beat it.
I wouldn’t try to out kick a Thai boxer or out grapple a grappler.
That is to play his game
Also,as has been stated above, I don’t have the time to ‘learn’ another system and I’m not good enough to stop practicing the one I have.
IMHO cross training isn’t a buffet where you pick and choose bits of each system.
Thats why the Gracies are so good at what they do.
They have learned to use what they have to it’s maximum potential.
WC works for me and I’m happy with MY progress.
It’s all about the individual not the system.
Regards
Dave F