Hi all.
I was just speaking to a Bagua stylist about whether he had sparred any WC guys. He said he had and pointed out that WC seems to have a problem with circular styles like Bagua. As a WC person I’d like to know, theoretically how could WC overcome a Bagua or similar stylist.
thanx
seeya.
If I had to guess, I’d say it has something to do with
“Dim dim chiu ng, Chiu mien jer ying.”
or to translate roughly,
“Face noon at every point, approach your opponent squarely.”
Of course, I could be wrong, your mileage may vary, take with a grain of salt, use at your own risk, proceed with caution, bring your own beer, rsvp, etc…
Regards,
Zhuge Liang
Mtod 1.
Not all stylists are coequal. There are bad wing chun folks too.
Baqua itself should not present a problem.
Wing chun footwork can cutoff bagua ciircles.
Face-cutoff- attack-if blocked redirect attack combinations.
Never underestimate wing chun- but you have to learn it well-
develop timing (chi sao) and footwork.
a lot of wing chun people are very linear in footwork, just chasing people down. against a circular style wing chun turning stance and angular footwork are needed i think to stay locked on the opponents centerline so they can’t circle around wing chun’s usual linear motion. its just a matter of staying locked on their center line and being able to reposition yourself when they try to circle around.
To deal with circular techniques and styles - like WC’s alleged old enemy, Choy Li Fut, Bagua, and, for that matter, boxing and muay thai - a WC practitioner needs experience working with and against those techniques.
If all you practice with are WC guys who believe the linear chain punch is faster than anything and thus no circular stylist can hit them, and noe of your training partners can throw decent circular techniques, then, yes, you will have LOTS of trouble if you meet a competent practitioner of a circular style.
Practical experience tends to overcome theoretical approaches. A lot.
If you guys ever want to have a prayer against a good bagua fighter the first thing you have to do is get past the misconceptions you have about the style, get a grip on what circular and linear mean and go out and spar with some bagua fighters and see what it’s all about. I’ll give you a few clues though. Just because we train circle walking at times doesn’t mean we walk in circles in a fight. Bagua centerline is 360 degrees. And don’t be afraid to look outside your Wing Chun for answers.
Originally posted by yuanfen
Mtod 1.
Not all stylists are coequal. There are bad wing chun folks too.
Baqua itself should not present a problem.
Wing chun footwork can cutoff bagua ciircles.
Face-cutoff- attack-if blocked redirect attack combinations.
Never underestimate wing chun- but you have to learn it well-
develop timing (chi sao) and footwork.
Yuanfen is right. Wing Chun works fine against Bagua. However, in most confrontations, it is the martial artist that matters, his/her skills and confidence in them, and not the art.
Wing Chun seems to me to be designed to work against circular prone and powerful styles. We just cut 'em off and chop 'em down.
Regards,
Winner = whoever spars more.
Count-your profile has you asa bagua player- hence your
perspective is understandable, However to a good wing chun person -circles or lines- they have their weaknesses.
Wing chun folks can see what others do- but they do not need to modify wing chun- they need to learn wing chun well. Many dont.
Siu Baat Gwa of Fut Sao Wing Chun Kuen
Fut Sao Wing Chun has a Siu Baat Gwa form that teaches the circular outer circle and linear (cutting the pie) inner circle. Check out James Cama Sifu’s site. http://www.geocities.com/wingchunbuddhahand/handfootforms.html
Originally posted by yuanfen
Count-your profile has you asa bagua player- hence your
perspective is understandable, However to a good wing chun person -circles or lines- they have their weaknesses.
Wing chun folks can see what others do- but they do not need to modify wing chun- they need to learn wing chun well. Many dont.
What’s all this stuff about circles and lines? Do you shoot your gun around corners? All styles of Chinese martial arts have curves too, but I really don’t think any style is that different. Except for the methods training and some stylistic difference, we’re all fighting with the same weapons.
Is Wing Chun linear because it takes the shortest most direct path or is it linear because it follows a rhythm? Why is bagua a circular style? It’s more about how well you understand what you do. I just laugh when people make comments about other styles when they don’t even understand their own. Now that I have typed my reply, I see we are in agreement. It’s true in bagua too.
Count,
I have about five years Bagua and Xingyi, though good instruction is hard to find - though of course that applies to us all.
I agree that there are circles in WC, as well as linear aspects to Bagua.
What I’ve found a lot is that many students of WC just follow the propaganda without analysing what they are being told with a critical eye, or trading with other styles to see whether the talk walks. That is just as true of Xingyi and Bagua as of WC of course.
WC seems to have a problem with circular styles like Bagua. As a WC person I’d like to know, theoretically how could WC overcome a Bagua or similar stylist.
WC or people who practice WC?
Understand pivoting, chasing and facing and you can handle it ok. You might need to practie CK and dummy form some more. Aim to understand movement, dont aim to understand how to beat a style.
Originally posted by yuanfen
Wing chun folks can see what others do- but they do not need to modify wing chun- they need to learn wing chun well. Many dont.
… and that’s the truth. Nobody needs to modify their art - and why should they? You need to play your own game - different aspects of it with different opponents, but it’s still the same game.
Having said that - WC would kick bagua’s azz! 
You know it’s true!
Originally posted by anerlich
I agree that there are circles in WC, as well as linear aspects to Bagua.
What are the circles you are talking about? Bagua may take a straight line but there is nothing linear about it.
What I’ve found a lot is that many students of WC just follow the propaganda without analysing what they are being told with a critical eye, or trading with other styles to see whether the talk walks. That is just as true of Xingyi and Bagua as of WC of course.
I think we are all in agreement about this. The best thing to do is to make friends with other styles and try it out first hand. But unless you feel it first hand, don’t think you know enough to discuss in theory how you could beat it. (Not you personally, just in general)
I’d really like to get your take on this “circular” thing. I think people are just repeating what they heard and taking the “wing chun” party line. All CMA are circular. What does that mean and why is that different from other martial arts?
Responses to Count in brackets:
I think we are all in agreement about this.
((yes- talk-and listening to others alonecannot tell you what you can do))
The best thing to do is to make friends with other styles and try it out first hand.
((Next best thing to becoming proficient in and with wing chun.
There is a real danger in the watering down of wing chun-resulting in the spreading of bad wing chun))
But unless you feel it first hand, don’t think you know enough to discuss in theory how you could beat it. (Not you personally, just in general)
((Some truth to it- but not complete. The guy in front of me is a guy in front of me- I dont classify him as a bagua, hsing I, bjj,
stylist—wing chun teaches defending oneself from any angle-the guy in front of me is energy in motion- you can give it a name but you dont have to))
I’d really like to get your take on this “circular” thing. I think people are just repeating what they heard and taking the “wing chun” party line.
((Wing chun party line- what is that? There is no pope, no commissar no catechism in wing chun))
All CMA are circular.
((Far too general a characterization))
What does that mean and why is that different from other martial arts?
((Involves judgement calls- each his own. For me- wing chun provides a very comprehensive set of principles for any phase of martial activity))Joy
all CMA are circular
i definately would not call wing chun circular. it comes straight from the ground. the hips may rotate and the arms may rotate, but the bridge still goes out straight. its like a wedge.
Yuanfen,
Next best thing to becoming proficient in and with wing chun. There is a real danger in the watering down of wing chun-resulting in the spreading of bad wing chun
Still, if you don’t try out your theory against other styles, how will you know if you are right?
Wing chun party line- what is that? There is no pope, no commissar no catechism in wing chun
Oh please, the only thing you guys discuss on this forum more than how to beat other styles is which lineage is more pure. Who is closer to the source. Wing Chun party line is so well known because it’s debated so publically.
Far too general a characterization
Circular is not too general concept to discuss. It is an exact description of an approach to fighting. It is what makes CMA different from other martial arts styles.
The original poster (mtod1), heard from a “bagua stylist”, that bagua was a circular style and wing chun had difficulty with circular styles. I think before he can know “theoretically” how to overcome bagua he should first know “theoretically” what is a circular style. Personally I think Wing Chun is a pretty circular style too.
Originally posted by TjD
i definately would not call wing chun circular. it comes straight from the ground. the hips may rotate and the arms may rotate, but the bridge still goes out straight. its like a wedge.
I don’t even know wing chun but I know it’s circular. It’s circular because it is continuous. Not round like a circle but never ending like a circle. One technique ends where another begins. The fingers turn into a fist into an elbow, shoulder…A punch turns into a lock, into a throw…Never stopping until you finish…
A linear style is a straight tempo like block, punch, kick, punch. Tae Kwon Do is a linear style. I know. I know, spinning kicks go around in circles, crescent kicks go around in circles, so what? They show everything. Kung fu hides everything in continuous circles.
Now if you want to talk about power, it doesn’t come from the ground, it comes from your body. Short power doesn’t go all the way through your body either. It starts from just above where you hit. Get over the myth that power starts in the leg and comes from the ground. It starts in the middle and pushes out in both directions. What do you think all this fuss is about your Dan Tien?
The only reason I posted is because you guys were discussing my style. I never post over here because I have no reason to get in between all the internal squabbles. I have little use for understanding your styles training methods or your styles history. Face to face is another story. But since people were commenting on how bagua fighters fight I thought it might be helpful to add my perspective. I’m not offended by your comments about beating my style. I’m sincerely trying to help you here. I do get offended by the myths and misconceptions that circulate about bagua. That we walk around in circles and hit with our palms. that we read the I-ching and are an internal art or a soft style. All of that is bullshit. How do I know it’s bullshit? Serious study and comparison with other methods. Listening to people that know about there styles with an open mind. And putting it to the test. Until you do that it is all just theory.
Yuanfen,
Still, if you don’t try out your theory against other styles, how will you know if you are right?
((i did not advocate- not trying out wing chun against other styles.
If my experiments werent satisfactory, I would be doing something else,))
Oh please, the only thing you guys discuss on this forum more than how to beat other styles is which lineage is more pure.
(((Precisely- there is no pope to certify heaven))
Who is closer to the source. Wing Chun party line is so well known because it’s debated so publically.
((No because it doesnt exist- listen closely to the great diversity))
Circular is not too general concept to discuss. It is an exact description of an approach to fighting. It is what makes CMA different from other martial arts styles.
((You are right, if we use your conception of where the circles are—
but the circle/line dialogs here oftenuse differring definitions as happens in debates))
The original poster (mtod1), heard from a “bagua stylist”, that bagua was a circular style and wing chun had difficulty with circular styles. I think before he can know “theoretically” how to overcome bagua he should first know “theoretically” what is a circular style.
((Was not me- I dont care who is in front of me- I use wing chun))
Personally I think Wing Chun is a pretty circular style too.
((Depends-lots of shapes in good wing chun))
I don’t even know wing chun but I know it’s circular. It’s circular because it is continuous. Not round like a circle but never ending like a circle. One technique ends where another begins. The fingers turn into a fist into an elbow, shoulder…A punch turns into a lock, into a throw…Never stopping until you finish…
((Using that conception of circle-yes))
Now if you want to talk about power, it doesn’t come from the ground, it comes from your body.
((Relationship between both IMO))
Short power doesn’t go all the way through your body either. It starts from just above where you hit. Get over the myth that power starts in the leg and comes from the ground. It starts in the middle and pushes out in both directions.
((Many different engines of power and linkages in transmitting that power))
What do you think all this fuss is about your Dan Tien?
((???What fuss. Dan tien is important- but there is more to good wing chun than the dan tien))
The only reason I posted is because you guys were discussing my style. I never post over here because I have no reason to get in between all the internal squabbles.
((I enjoyed your posts))
Face to face is another story.
((true for many))
But since people were commenting on how bagua fighters fight
((Not me))
I thought it might be helpful to add my perspective.
((Welcome and helpful)) joy chaudhuri
Re: Yuanfen,
Originally posted by count
[B]
I don’t even know wing chun but I know it’s circular. It’s circular because it is continuous. Not round like a circle but never ending like a circle. One technique ends where another begins. The fingers turn into a fist into an elbow, shoulder…A punch turns into a lock, into a throw…Never stopping until you finish…
A linear style is a straight tempo like block, punch, kick, punch. Tae Kwon Do is a linear style. I know. I know, spinning kicks go around in circles, crescent kicks go around in circles, so what? They show everything. Kung fu hides everything in continuous circles.
[/B]
if thats how you define circular then i definately agree, however i think a better description of that is continuous. calling it circular misleads people into thinking about the shape circle, and the path something takes - which is where the misunderstanding arose. especially considering most, if not all tools in wing chun move in a straight line.
as to power coming from the dan tien, while conceptually different, it means the same thing. however, you cant have good wing chun power without the ground - therefore it is a requirement, and thats where the power comes from. the legs may push from the dan tien, and the arms torso may as well, but without the ground, your legs do nothing and you lose a lot of power.