not to be misunderstood
What I meant was to “feel” your root thru your heels into the ground. Not put all your weight down on your heels. That would be wrong.
The example that I gave with the stumps was to explain the shift and how shifting on the heels leave your legs in the same place and not somewhere else. Hope this helps.
My bad
Oh. Right then. Well in that case I agree with you 100% 
centre is better
IMO, heels are good for starting to learn/teach shifting but afterward the focus should move to the centre of the foot. adds more stability and provides a quicker option for using the front of the foot to spring forward. if the energy is all at the heel, it will take longer to move forward.
any thoughts on that?
:eek:
Could the pigeon-toed posture have been adopted possibly to offer some degree of groin protection?
Origenx
Exactly ! Lesson Over!
Horse stances
My bad Fei Jai. Fei can also mean fly/flying.
The pole form has more than one stance. The low horse I was refering to is one of them. The stances in the weapons forms can also be transposed to empty hands.
PR
Good article
The Hidden Power of Siu Nim Tau
My master Yip Man first started teaching Ving Tsun in Hong Kong at the
Restaurant Worker’s Union Association. At the time I was the secretary of the
association, so Master Yip and I had many opportunities to be together.
Before I became interested in Ving Tsun, I often overheard Master Yip
explaining his Ving Tsun theories in his classes. Gradually he sparked my
interest in the art. It so happened that I had great interest in physics and
mechanics; I enjoyed his theories on body structure and power development
methods very much. Through my careful analysis, I was convinced that Master
Yip’s art was flawless and very advanced. Finally, I decided to follow Master
Yip and became his student.
Like every beginner in class, I started my journey with Siu Nim Tau , even
though I had already familiarized myself with the form as an observer. It
took me little effort to completely learn the basic movements. I then began
to wonder about the essence of the form, besides the hand movements. I went
to Master Yip and inquired about the meaning of Siu Nim Tau, especially the
non-combative tone in the name. Master Yip replied: “This is about Lop Nim –
to establish an idea in the mind”. I am sure most of my peers have also heard
about this term. Master Yip also added that it required prolonged practice of
this form to truly master the essence of lop nim.
This hidden meaning of lop nim really caught my interest. I spent much time
analyzing its nature, but could still not grasp the concept. Therefore I
decided to drop all my thoughts and simply practiced Siu Nim Tau whenever I
could, day and night. After a long time, I began to see the connection
between lop nim and the form. I suddenly felt great joy in my Ving Tsun
training, which fueled my interest in the art further. I became obsessed with
the art. Gradually I discovered some powerful but hidden forces within each
Siu Nim Tau movement. All the movements are indeed able to deliver
indestructible power, yet they look very soft and graceful. At that moment,
the concept of lop nim became extremely enlightening and inspiring to me. I
finally understood the reason behind it.
I summarize this hidden power as a kind of nim lik (the force of an idea; or
mind/intent force, where nim is the same idea/intent as in nim tau ). In
essence, Siu Nim Tau has two major points: nim lik and “structure”.
Let’s look at a simple example: if a healthy person falls down from a 6 - 7
feet tall platform unprepared, although he/she lands with both feet, he/she
is still likely to injury him/herself. However, if the person is mentally
prepared for the fall, his/her feet will automatically recoil and absorb the
impact. Also, he/she can only have this reflex if his/her feet are relax.
This is an unique attribute of human muscle in its relax state. The springy
force on the feet that help the person land safely is a direct result of
relax muscles and nim lik.
note: according to contemporary scientific findings; when human muscles are
in relax state and are moving at steady speed, they can sustain greater
pressure than when they are tensed up (using force). It is so amazing that
our Ving Tsun ancestor Ng Mui was able to make use of this scientific method
to design our Siu Nim Tau hundreds of years ago
Many Ving Tsun practitioners like to impose their techniques into frozen and
static postures. Many believe that Bong Sau should be done at certain height
or angle, or criticize others for not complying to their artificial
standards. Some may call this style traditionalist; that style reformist; and
on and on. In fact, movements in Siu Nim Tau are not named as if they were
static postures. For example, when rolling up Tan Sau into Bong Sau, it is
the course of this rolling movement that makes up the Bong Sau technique; the
function of Bong Sau exists in its circular motion. Similarly, all other
techniques in Siu Nim Tau employ circular movements in various directions.
It is a popular belief that Bong Sau is a passive technique: practitioners
only use Bong Sau to deflect incoming forces. This would apply to the
scenario where a statically posted Bong Sau is being used to block attacks.
However, this explanation lacks an understanding of Bong Sau. In my
experience, Bong Sau can deliver enormous offensive power. Indeed, it is a
very aggressive and penetrating technique due to its circular nature.
Finally, I suggest that all fellow Ving Tsun practitioners look carefully
into each technique of Siu Nim Tau. Discover the subtle circular movements in
each of them. Practice with mind focus and steady speed. Use the mind to
command each technique rather than using muscle tension. I am sure you will
gradually find great joy and satisfaction in your Siu Nim Tau training!
Tsui Sheung Tin
Welcome Phil
Hi Phil,
Nice to see you here and welcome. As always I enjoy reading your posts. I can see you scratching you head right now wondering if you know me and if so from where 
I look forward to reading more from you. BTW, you will find some old friends here in Rene, Dzu and Kathy Jo.
Peace,
Dave
:rolleyes:
Protecting the groin
I disagree that clamping the knees was designed to protect the groin. Extreme pigeon toeing may prevent a foot from fitting up in between the knees, but IMHO the foot placement will then be too close and the horse to narrow. This results in a less than optimal structure for transferring force to and from the ground. The groin is just as much of a target as the knees, throat, sternum, etc. so why sacrifice your ability to move, root, and generate power for the sake of one target? I’d rather rely upon my sensitivity and structure to keep the opponent off balance and disrupt his kick attempts.
Many people seem to fixate on the position of the toes and feet, when it’s really the pelvis alignment with the rest of the body that’s important. The fact is that the more pigeon toed you become, the more the pelvis is unable to align forward properly through its full range of motion.
You can root with your feet turned out because the pelvis can move freely. However, if the feet are turned too far out, then there is not much drive from the legs when stepping. The key is to find a FUNCTIONAL balance for your own body type and not because everyone else tells you to do it a certain way.
To test your horse (any horse) and ability to root, have a partner apply some slow but STEADILY increasing pressure to your sternum. If you begin to rock back or lose your balance, then your alignment for that particular force needs to be adjusted to compensate. If you hold a static, fixed horse, you won’t be able to handle much pressure.
Dzu
Redmond
ahh… yes, I have seen pictures of the low horse in the pole form…
but as I am just only starting to learn Chum Kiu, I’m just worrying about getting the wing chun stance correct first. Weapons are still far off in the distant horizon, and then some.
Dave.
Thanks
Thanks Sihing73.
I was a little leary at first about becoming a member of this forum. These forums can sometimes chew you up and spit you out viciously. Since moving to Detroit, I haven’t met many WC people, (there were so many WC guys/gals in NY that I guess I got spoiled…grin). So this forum sort of gives me a connection to people who love what I love. I just hope we can stay civil with each other like the members on the WC mailist. Just because I like strawberry and some one else likes vainilla doesn’t mean that we can’t agree to disagree and be friends. Hi to everyone.
World peace,
Phil
I also doubt that the knee-clamping in SLT stance is designed to protect the groin. There are easier and better ways, e.g. standing with one foot forward, foot placement to block the opponent’s feet, etc. I concede this is not a bad stance for close fighting, similar to the sanchin stance, but I’d rather check the leg with my shin than try and catch it between my thighs.
Mine is a lineage which uses the “pidgeon toed stance with feet parallel” (a contradiction in terms, BTW). It is used to develop leg and hip strength and structure, not to fight with.
I would need to be convinced that the internal rotation of the femur leads to “correct” alignment of the hips and pelvis. If the hips, how does internal rotation assist anything? if the pelvis, are you talking alignment with the spine or the actual hip joint (already covered by “Hips”?
The internal rotation of the hips may assist in developing flexibility to increase internal rotation, though this is hardly the most efficient way. Nor is it so for ankle flexibility.
I’m not sure it is possible to kick effectively with the femur or foot rotated internally, or straight for that matter. Most kicks require an external rotation of the supporting foot to allow the hip to come through. nor do I think you can drive strongly forward with your foot turned in - your heel, and toe both need to be aligned with the direction of travel to be able to engage the calf muscles.
I don’t knock either stance having trained with good teachers using the two approaches. But neither used it for fighting, other than as an occasional transitional stance.
Stance
We train pigeon toed, however when i Chi Sau and react to oncoming force or press forward my feet normally end up more parrallel.
Two possible reasons
FWIW i hope its the first.
Nat from UK
I like this topic! There hasn’t been any slanging matches. Abman makes a very good point by saying he needs to be convinced as to why internal rotation of the femur etc. helps the stance. It is important to remember that the basic stance is just a training stance. As dzu points out it helps align areas of the body so that they can be used efficiently, but it is not for moving. Sure you can practice moving from it into other stances, but to try and move from it and remain in it is silly.
To answer Abman’s question the reason why internal rotation of the femur helps make the hips more stable is that it aligns the femural head and the acetabulum (the pelvic articulation) in such a way that it creates the best contact. Look up a anatomy text and you will see that nomally that hip and pelvis aren’t aligned very well. However internal rotation alone is not enough, there must also be posterior tilt of the pelvis to tighten ligaments that hold the femur and pelvis together, as well as some knee bending and abduction of the legs. Straightening of the upper body also allows the muscles of the back work more efficiently.
If you don’t believe me check out some text books.
LO
Training stance
I disagree that the stance is just for training.
If so, why is there so much emphasis on it in the first form? why do we use this stance in chi sao??
As to moving in this stance, why can’t you move in this stance? when you’re moving, do you move with your feet or your body?
In my limited experience, it is not hard to move from this stance, provided that you are in it correctly. Also when moving, don’t think about stepping, just move the body and the feet will follow.
If this stance is for training purposes only, what is it training? Is it to strengthen the ligaments and muscles in the leg? If so, why not use the low horse stance like Hung Gar?? If we’re using this stance to train force absorbtion/generation, why not use it in application rather than forsaking it for another stance?? Or even, use whatever stance you use to train power generation/absorbtion??
How much time do you spend in this stance, and what are you getting out of it, if you’re never going to use it?
Help
I’d still like some help with this question.
“Yee Jee Kim Yang Ma” translates in Cantonese as “Character two pinching goat stance/horse”. The character for two in Chinese is two parallel lines either perpendicular (old style), or horizontal (modern Chinese). The pigeon toed stance looks more like the character eight in Chinese. Should it be called, Baat Jee Kim Yang Ma? (No disrespect to any linage intended).
World Peace,
PR
[This message was edited by P Redmond on 09-30-01 at 12:06 AM.]
Correction
Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma is Cantonese for Character Two Pinching Goat Horse.
(Bad grammar on last post).
Paz,
PR
2
The Chinese for “2” is also a 12-stroke character composed of two horizontal lines beneath a crossed lance/sword combo, and a shell beneath that.
Or, for grammar, it can be an 8-stroke to connote pairing (textually, of people, but this need not be so!)
You can insist on it referring to people by adding another 2 strokes (a man!)
I really hope this in depth voyage into the Chinese character for 2 has inproved your Wing Chun.
:rolleyes:
Meng Shou
Tsui Sheung Tin wrote,
“Structure: Yee Gee Kim Yang Ma allows one to project all energy forward
towards the target. Tei Gong (pulling up of the muscle around the anus area)
helps unite body and stance. It also helps relax the leg muscles while being
in the stance; thus the whole body reaches a highly alert and ready state)”.
I train SLT with my knees pointing towards the apex of a triangle, forward energy. Using Faat Lik. Not pinching inward. If you’re advocating the pigeon-toed stance, I can’t be convinced, period. Many street/club fights (I was a bouncer) have shown me what works and what doesn’t. BTW, Meng Shou, my WC is constantly improving. WC is my life, I train diligently, and thanks for your concern.
World Peace,
PR