WT,
Can’t say that I have ever come across this saying/statement. Should I consider myself a “monkeys uncle”? 
Peace,
Dave
I played with the pidgeon toed stance and I feel it made me a little less free when it came to range and freedom of movement of arms and stomps and front kicks off the front legs.But then again I am not a seasoned user of the pidgeon toed stance.Perhaps if you train it from day one it is a different story. And as to pivoting we always step to avoid pivoting on an unfamiliar surface where a street fight is about to commence. I like to keep my feet a little wider than shoulder width and thighs almost parallel
Just as a point of interest who here fights in a perpetual tee stance with 60 percent of their weight on the rear leg?
“take the pebble from my hand"The old monk from the TV show"Kung Fu”
“I just go at it as best I can”
Benny the Legend.
[This message has been edited by flavour54 (edited 08-10-2000).]
Dave,
It’s what Kernspecht calls the WC tan sao,
where if you put a mirror in your palm you would see yourself.
As opposed to the WT tan sao with the palm up.
WT
WT,
The “shape” for Taun may have changed slightly since I was involved. I remember we performed it with the Hand/Palm more level. In which case holding a mirror would not show me myself but would reflect what was above me. However, strictly speaking Taun is formed by rotating the Bong Downward with the elbow remaining in roughly the same position. This would result in the palm being more in line with your saying.
Nice to think about
Peace,
Dave
when beggining the p t stance is taught to teach the student angles of attack & defence
& also to help strengthen the ligaments & tendons in the knees & ankles(this good to have when fighting on uneven surfaces) as the student reaches biu jee they in all honesty no longer have to stand like this(although it is still recomended)as there stance should be very strong by this stage.
always remember this is only a training stance devised to optimise your precious training time by allowing u to train what in a fight would be either of your rear legs
which generally will be carrying a larger % of your weight,to stand in front of your opponent & offer your groin would be madness
when moving 1 leg foward into a fighting stance the front leg should be turned in slightly as 2 cover the gion,the knees should be slightly bent & never straighten
& most importantly the waist should be locked foward 4 stability & power(it,s also good 4 helping with that adrenaline or eximent u feel when your about to have some fun)
wow…sorry if i got carried away there or if anyones views may differ but that’s just my take on things…hope i’ve been some help or even just offered something someone may find helpful
YJKYM
Someone mentioned turning from the horse on the balls of the feet or the heels. In my lineage you don’t turn with the horse. You step maybe, but no turn. Also, “Yee Jee Kim Yang Ma” translates in Cantonese as “Character two pinching goat stance/horse”. The character for two in Chinese is two parallel lines either perpendicular (old style), or horizontal (modern Chinese). The pigeon toed stance looks more like character eight in Chinese. Should it be called, Baat Jee Kim Yang Ma? I can’t wait for the contoversy on this one. By the way, I’ve studied both styles including Henry Leung’s. As a matter of fact I was a sifu under Henry Leung back in the day.
Paz
to be or not to be pigeoned…
sh, 2 reasons why pigeon toed is done in the beginning…
-
by being in pigeon toed stance, its easier to turn or shift
-
not being in pigeon toed stance, you no longer create a pyramid base structure
as for yipman breaking this rule, this is a case where if you master WC, you can break the rules…his adjustment is so fast and timely its not necessary for him to keep it pigeoned toe…
not that i’ve master the art, but i can get away with not being in pigeon toed when i chi sao and still adjust at the same rate if i were…
Interesting
The first thing I would like to say is that shifting on the heels keeps your legs in the same position as they were - only your body positioning changes. If you had no feet and had only stumps in place of your heels, would’nt your legs still be in the same place after the shift? That’s what I thought!
Actually, shifting on the balls of your feet move your whole body away and is not very stable at all. Try taking a punch (a real one) while you’re shifting on the balls of your feet. You will find you are off balance and unstable because you are not rooted at all.
When you shift on your heels you are always rooted to the ground and more stable meaning you can generate more power from the ground. Make sense?
Just a few questions:
Do any of you guys feel that the power of the horse is from the ground?
Have you ever felt the power of a punch coming from your heels?
Have you ever intercepted a heavy blow and felt the power being absorbed into the ground by your horse?
Do you feel your heels in the ground during Siu Nim Tau or Chi sau?
If not - then you definitely don’t know what I’m talking about. 
Last question - when you turn your horse to face an opponent from the side - are both your feet still pointed inward towards each other? If so, why?
I hope I have’nt offended anyone. This of course, is just my opinion.
I think many of you are missing the point of the pigeon toed stance. e.g. when you do a bong sau the important thing is where your elbow is, not so much where your hand is, although the hand postion needs to be good too. The same goes for the basic stance, your feet are turned in to create the correct alignment at the hips! It is all to do with anatomical positioning of the hips, pelvis and spine. After all it is the stance which is the strength of Ving Tsun.
Some people have very limited internal rotation of the hips and hence will find it near impossible to get their feet more than slightly pigeon toed. This doesn,t mean that their hips aren’t in the correct position however
In my experience, if the weight begins on the heels, when pressure is introduced, it is easier to force it back beyond that and then stability is reduced. If, on the other hand, weight is kept around K1 (bubbling spring), when pressure is introduced, the heel is still there as a buffer.
Rgds,
RR
Yeah, we are also taught to keep weight over bubbling wells. Works good for me! (But I wear size 13’s, so I might have a mechanical advantage )
If Yip Man did it, can I?
My parents always said, “Don’t do as I do, do as I say.” I think that advice is applicable here too. The Masters do what they do because they can already do the other stuff – it’s called progression.
Just stumbled on this discussion; though I’m a bagua guy, not a wing chunner.
We use pigeontoed-stance alot in our bagua. In fact, the only time we use straight horse (aside from some qigongs) is to sink and solidify for some throws over the leg.
The strength of the pigeontoed-stance as opposed to straight horse, I find, is in using energy during movement, rather than while being firmly planted. Although, if you are standing at 50-50 weighting, I find this greatly reduces the potential of this stance. This is something we never do, and our footwork may also be different, so perhaps my experiences are different than yours. By angling your toes in such a manner when you move, you set up a coiling energy throughout your body that helps link it through circular movement for energy usage. This is good not just for issuing energy, but also for recieving it in whole-body yielding movements. Technique-wise, we also use this stance for trapping techniques with the legs, as well as sweeps.
As far as turning goes, if you are rooted in the formal sense, you should be turning your foot around a point just a bit forward from the heel. But again, I’m not sure how much wing chun focuses on this.
Here’s my quick take on Parallel vs Pigeon Toed:
Most people walk with their hips open and their feet turned outward slightly. This is so the leg can swing through the entire range of motion when stepping to cover a lot of distance. Most people are relatively inflexible when beginning WC training, especially in the hip, pelvis, and ankle region. The slight pigeon toe YJKYM can correct the muscle imbalance by closing the hips and stretching out the hip flexors and muscles in the pelvic region to restore a balance.
The knee is designed to bend in the same direction as the feet and toes. Clamping too much inward rather than forward is BAD and can lead to knee problems later on. From a functional standpoint, the legs get their drive when the feet, knees, and pelvis are pointed in the same direction. Too much pigeon toe will close the hips and prevent the Dan Tien from aligning with the rest of the body properly. Too much knee clamping inwards will move the knee out of alignment with the feet and pelvis.
Parallel feet open up the pelvis for better movement, but the danger lies in having too wide a stance and a lack of stability when sinking. The ankles can become a weakpoint because they are not in line with the knee and pelvis. The feet should be planted firmly at the K1/Bubbling well so that the largest area of the foot is in contact with the ground and the ankles are compressed properly.
There are pros and cons to both, but if you don’t check it with pressure from a partner, you can’t tell if you’r horse is right for your body type and flexbility level.
Dzu
toes in, technically
i try to do yee jee kim yueng ma with my toes in, but because i have mild cerebral palsy, i cant alway do that depending on the shoes i am wearing. what i find to be more important is the pulling up of the hips and sitting back into your stance and pulling the knees together. i don’t feel much difference between when i have my toes in or paralelle.
know yourself don’t show yourself, think well of yorself don’t tell of yourself. lao tzu
Exercise
I have always been taught to use the pigeon toed stance, never the parallel stance.
But to throw some light onto this discussion, this is an excercise we sometimes do in class.
Firstly, in your pigeon toed stance, with your arms out in their angles (ala double palm strike).
Have a partner slowly apply force into your arms, and see how much you can absorb.
Now turn your feet parallel, and do the same.
And then turn your feet out, and try the same again.
I have found that I can absorb the most amount of force with the pigeon toed stance.
Our theory is that by pointing the toes into the centre, we can focus our force more into our opponents centre. The apex of the triangle that the feet creates should be at the extension of the punch.
As to pivoting/turning, I have initially been taught to pivot through the centre of the foot. As I have progressed, there has been less emphasis on the feet and more on using the body to turn.
Kicking from the pigeon toed stance. I believe that if you properly focus your force from the knees up into your opponent’s centre, then it is very easy, and quick to launch a kick from the pigeon toed stance.
Dave
If you are in pidgeon toe stance with parallel feet, and you pull your knees in, you help your opponent in finding a weakness, ie. breaking your Knees.
Also can anyone tell me what shape are the legs of a rocking chair?
Dynamics
Hey Flying Kid (Fei Jai), you mentioned an exercise where someone stands pigeon toed and can absorb more force than when in a parallel stance. That makes sense. It also makes sense that if someone sits in a ‘sei ping dai ma’ (low horse), they can laterally, resist, or absorb a great amount of force also. I don’t think that either of these tests have anything to do with the dynamics of fighting. I don’t mean to dispute you in any way. You know what opinions are like…grin. What really matters in a street fight is the ‘win’.
Some say a kick should be thrown with your supporting foot planted firmly on the ground for stability. Sound advice. But,if you knock someone out while on the balls of your supporting foot, is the knockout still valid?
I’m still just a student searching for truths.
PR
Dynamics?!
I wasn’t talking about dynamics of fighting.
I was merely contributing to the toes in versus parallel in the Wing Chun stance.
In our school, we have only one stance, so I wouldn’t know anything about the low horse stance.
The exercise I described is just an illustration at why we have our toes inwards, as opposed to parallel.
However, in mentioning fighting dynamics, I believe that our power is generated from the stance and the ability to absorb someone’s force/bodyweight, then use it against them, gives us the advantage in a fight. If we ignore all these, and just go in for the ‘win’, why bother learning these things at all?
But… that’s just my opinion
BTW, it’s Fat Boy
We use the pigeon-toed stance as a training stance for use during exercises where we won’t be moving around such as SLT and single chi sao. Feet are roughly shoulder width apart, you can get to the actual foot positioning by beginning with your feet together, then spreading your toes outwards, then shifting your heels outwards from there, to end up in a pigeon toe position. i.e
|| -> / -> /
This is of course simply how we do it, and there are other ways to get there. As someone else mentioned, you form an equilateral triangle with the centre being very much like a pole that drives through your head, down through your body and exits through your groin. Your knees should be almost directly above your toes resting forwards (not inwards), and your weight is on your quads, not your knees - otherwise you’ll get the shakes after standing like this for a while.
Weight distribution should be 50/50, with your weight centrally located on your feet - not on the heels or balls, which results in a windscreen wiper effect when you turn/pivot, and doesn’t leave you as stable as if you are centrally rooted. Besides which, if you turn/pivot on the heels or balls, you don’t generate as much power as you would when you are weighted on the centre of your feet. You should sink as much as you need to do develop a low centre of gravity. It’s really going to depend on how tall you are, your upper:lower body height ratio, things like that. If you’re pushed, and your top half sways back but your bottom half stays still, you’re not properly rooted.
For actual fighting stances, or exercises where we move around, we use the parallel stance. You’ll note that if you stand in pigeon toed stance and pivot left or right (weight centrally located) then your feet will end up parallel anyway. Your lead foot should probably be turned in slightly to guard your groin. Same goes for shifting forwards and backwards - feet are parallel, lead foot perhaps turned inwards.
mun hung - I can answer yes to all your questions, but I weight centrally, rather than on the heels. It may simply be a matter of power generation that is the difference between how we stand. After all, we have feet to help keep us balanced, we should probably use them to their full advantage, rather than sit on our heels and act like we only have stumps 