[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;961209]Terrence,
You are not suggesting training full contact 100% intensity all the time are you?
Even pro fighters don’t do that.[/QUOTE]
No, I’m not suggesting that you do it ALL the time. But I am suggesting that you do it regularly and consistently.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;961212]No, I’m not suggesting that you do it ALL the time. But I am suggesting that you do it regularly and consistently.[/QUOTE]
Ah, cool, agreed.
The human body and mind is not hardwired to do a rear cross, a kimura, a low single leg, a judo throw, an armbar, a cross side control holdown, a duck under his hook and come back with a hook of your own on his outside, a straight lead as he begins a rear roundhouse kick, etc.
These things must be learned by purposely going against certain “natural” body actions and reactions.
And while it is true to say that certain body actions that are good fighting movements are “natural”, ie.- a throwing round/hook punches, regardless of how clumsy or efficient any individual might “naturally” do it…
to try and take half of this equation just outlined and ignore the other half is to play mind games with oneself and with others.
So that’s the general setting, and here’s the particulars for one certain troll:
While it’s true that vertical wing chun punches, for example, are not natural and must be learned (through SNT/SLT elbows-in training within the first section of the form)…
and while it’s true that this type of punching technique has its limitations in functionality in a live setting - this doesn’t change the fact that they can be used with great efficiency in the proper setting (ie.- in close and after a line has been opened and controlled)…
regardless of whether you personally can make it work or not…
and regardless of whether or not you can make any of the WCK you’ve learned through the years work…
and regardless of whether or not you’ve turned to mma, boxing, MT, or anything else you say you’ve been working with as a means of getting over your frustrations.
Your limitations are not, ipso facto, everyone else’s limitations. You are GREAT at trolling, though. Gotta give you that.
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;961216]The human body and mind is not hardwired to do a rear cross, a kimura, a low single leg, a judo throw, an armbar, a cross side control holdown, a duck under his hook and come back with a hook of your own on his outside, a straight lead as he begins a rear roundhouse kick, etc.
[/QUOTE]
Anton Geesnik (sp) the famed judoka once did a seminar where he was across the hall from a dance class. He took his judoka into the dance class, and as an experiment asked the dancers to pair up, and one to lie of the floor and the other to do whatever it took to hold his partner down. Then Geesnik went around calling our the names for the various pins that were being used. The point he was making is that those things are very natural, there is only a limited way of pinning people, and you will find them just by trying to pin one another. That’s how people found these things in the first place!
Or, you can speed up the process by instruction, by having someone who knows them show them to you.
If you get into a fight, and your opponent tries to pin you, it’s going to look like judo or BJJ or wrestling. In other words, it is going to look like MMA.
If you try to twist someone’s arm to hurt them, you’ll find the kimura. If you try to kick them, you’ll find the roundkick. If someone swings at you, you’ll find the duckunder. These things are all very natural – you can see little kids do them in schoolyards. They don’t do them well. That’s where training comes in.
These things must be learned by purposely going against certain “natural” body actions and reactions.
You are right insofar as certain natural reactions can be easily taken advantage of – for example, it seems natural to try and push your opponent off when he is on top of you or turning your head when he tries to hit you. But what I am talking about is using optimal body mechanics (which are hard-wired).
And while it is true to say that certain body actions that are good fighting movements are “natural”, ie.- a throwing round/hook punches, regardless of how clumsy or efficient any individual might “naturally” do it…
to try and take half of this equation just outlined and ignore the other half is to play mind games with oneself and with others.
What I am talking about is our using optimal body mechanics to perform various tasks. What that means is being able to perform at our max intensity (full-ouot, 100%). Those mechanics are obviously very natural and are hard-wired.
But the mechanics is just part of the picture. Another part is using those things to play the game. Playing the game involves other things.
So that’s the general setting, and here’s the particulars for one certain troll:
While it’s true that vertical wing chun punches, for example, are not natural and must be learned (through SNT/SLT elbows-in training within the first section of the form)…
and while it’s true that this type of punching technique has its limitations in functionality in a live setting - this doesn’t change the fact that they can be used with great efficiency in the proper setting (ie.- in close and after a line has been opened and controlled)…
regardless of whether you personally can make it work or not…
And my view is that the WCK punch is very natural – IF you use it in the right circumstances. As I have said before, the vertical fist is due to keeping the elbow down. Try uppercutting with your palm not facing your body! When you are attached, you find very quickly that you don’t want to raise your elbow. If you do, then you either go flying or he takes your back or takes you down. So you keep your elbow down. Then when you punch, you have a “vertical” fist. Your punches also are straight (since hooks involve raising the elbow).
When you know WCK’s method, the tools are very natural.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;961200]You can’t re-wire your body. You can’t re-hard-wire your brain to lift heavy weights differently or to run differently. Your body is “designed” (evolution) to move optimally in certain ways. There’s no getting around that. And there are many other in-born constraints on what we can or cannot do.
[/QUOTE]
Wrong, all wrong. Most people bend over and lift with thier backs naturally. Is that optimal? No. Most people have to ‘learn’ to lift with thier legs and keep thier backs straight/head up. Some might figure it out over time some might not, but it’s not hard-wired. And you can re-wire the brain, happens all the time. Look at people that suffer severe head trama and damage part of thier brain. Thier brains re-hardwire naturally. And this can also be done thru repetitious practice of a given activity.
As for you stupid swimming analogy, you’re wrong there too. Most people, if they learn by themselves how to swim, might just get to the doggy paddle level. Is this optimal? Nope, but it’s natural. So for you to say that we are designed to move optimally from birth, then there would be no need to re-wire ourselves as we do so often (in sports, in fighting, acrobatics, etc). We all aren’t born to juggle, walk a tightrope, swim using a breast stroke, lift with our legs, etc. These things are learned thru repetitive practice and self re-wiring.
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;961257]Wrong, all wrong. Most people bend over and lift with thier backs naturally. Is that optimal? No. Most people have to ‘learn’ to lift with thier legs and keep thier backs straight/head up. Some might figure it out over time some might not, but it’s not hard-wired. And you can re-wire the brain, happens all the time. Look at people that suffer severe head trama and damage part of thier brain. Thier brains re-hardwire naturally. And this can also be done thru repetitious practice of a given activity.
As for you stupid swimming analogy, you’re wrong there too. Most people, if they learn by themselves how to swim, might just get to the doggy paddle level. Is this optimal? Nope, but it’s natural. So for you to say that we are designed to move optimally from birth, then there would be no need to re-wire ourselves as we do so often (in sports, in fighting, acrobatics, etc). We all aren’t born to juggle, walk a tightrope, swim using a breast stroke, lift with our legs, etc. These things are learned thru repetitive practice and self re-wiring.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I agree with you JP…The Unnatural become natural through repetitious practice and diligence. To increase ones skill you have to fight and practice. A person who never fights will not be hardwired to fight effectively if he has never fought. Even fighting at high intensity is training. You are doing Anerobic training conditioning your mind and body to react effeciently at a high level.
So once again practice makes perfect!
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;961186]Yes, I can read. If you go back to my original response to bennyvt, you’ll see I wrote: “I’m saying fighting looks like MMA/NHB regardless of what your “style” is. That’s what fighting IS – that’s how people optimally move when they fight and are hard pushed.”
[/QUOTE]
Well, you’re wrong. That’s how they’ve TRAINED themselves to look like. That’s not how scrubs or seasoned street fighters on the street look when fighting. That’s not what fighting is, that’s what a sporting event is. Maybe you should turn off the TV and take a step into the real world.
And, I repeat, MMA isn’t ‘fighting naturally’. That’s how people move and fight after many many hours of rewiring thier inital, natural, non-optimized ways of fighting. Otherwise, there would be no MMA gyms, no boxing gyms, not MA gyms at all. We’d all be MMA gods from birth.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;961186]You then responded to my post with: “Big deal, T takes a few weeks off the forum and comes back saying fighting looks like fighting - wow, how revolutionary.”
So, I guess now that you either misread what I wrote or were intentionally misstating my view. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and concluded that you were agreeing with me (since you thought my view was apparently obvious). [/QUOTE]
For you to think that MMA is what all fighting really looks like is dummer than saying all fighting looks like fighting. My bad, I guess I gave you more credit then you deserve…
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;961186]It’s amazing to me that this sort of thinking continues. It’s been proven wrong so many times . . . .
What are you preparing for? Tell me how you learn to grapple without permitting tapping out? Do you break each other’s limbs in training? Do you roll on concrete? Do you spar in stand-up without wearing gloves or mouthpieces? I mean, after all, you’re not going to have those things on the street! And by your reasoning, since you are preparing for the street those things must impede your development. You surely don’t want to use that “safe stuff” that sport fighters use. ;)[/QUOTE]
For the second time, I’m not preparring for for MMA/NHB as you keep trying to imply. I was just correcting your stupid assumtions, and I’m growing tired of having to repeat myself.
And, I didn’t think even you were stupid enough to suggest one should spar and train without limits, taps, protective gear etc. If you did, you wouldn’t be able to do it for long or often. Regardless what one trains for they still have to train safe.
Bottom line, there is a vast difference between what you call ‘fighting’ and what fighting really is, it has nothing to do with how anyone trains. You think sport fighting is the same as a street fight, it’s not - and not all fighting is the same. Anyone that has experience in a real-world fight would know this. Have you ever been in a real fight? Have you even seen one? It’s obvious from the way you talk the answer is no.
Actually a good topic and discussion!
From what I am reading of T’s posts (correct me if I’m wrong T), he is saying that there is an optimal way of moving. IMO optimal is not always natural. Natural is the way you were taught to do something, not to mean that all human do things the same (the devil is in the details). Some people do things a certain way, these ways become natural to them alone depending on how much of that thing they are doing. The basic idea of how to hit a tennis ball is the same for all players (swing racket, hit ball) , but the way the individual player hits the ball is unique to them alone. What I am talking about here is timing, mechanics, set up and so forth. McEnroe and Borg were both great players, with two totally different ways to hit the ball, as both players affected the ball differently by the way the hit it. Borg’s swing produced lots of top spin which made the ball go high over the net and dip drastically after that, while bouncing high once it landed. McEnroe’s shots were flatter and at times had underspin, therefore his shots were not so high above the net but were more direct in motion from his racket to the opposite side of the court. They also had totally different setups, with the same result, tennis ball hit from point A to B.
IMO WC brings someone’s natural ability to hit with their fists and feet and optimises it to become more powerful, simple & direct. Any striker from any system can learn something useful from the WC training system, as it is not about technique, but rather mechanics. Now for example, if you are constantly tensing your shoulders when you punch, you are not punching optimally. Yes you still may have good power from your shot, but it is not the best you can do, as something is holding back your full potential, plus injury can happen as well if too much shoulder is involved. WC does not tell you how to fight, or what to do when this or that attack is coming your way, it only trains your body to perform a specific physical movement at a higher than average ability level, it’s physical as well as mental performance enhancement.
Instead of loading up my punch by drawing it back, I can hit from where ever the fist is, this is efficiency and directness. Simplicity is the fact that there aren’t many moving parts in the punch, just a simple usage of ones legs with a connected body mechanic to produce a good punch. Our legs are already powerful from daily use, all one has to do is learn how to connect it with your upper body blows on every shot, for basic usage. The cool part is that this method has less stress on your body, because it is being optimized to produce the force in your blows as well as absorb it (receiving impact force). Again if too much shoulder is involved in your punching motion, you will injury it for sure, with possible lifetime effect, even though you are still punching somewhat hard. There’s a right way and a wrong way to do things that is T’s point IMO. It has nothing really to do with the application of the abilities WC gives one, that is a different game and has all to do with sparring.
James
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;961200]
Let me ask you a question: if what you are practicing doesn’t work at 100% full-out intensity (which is what you will be facing in a fight), then why train it? Aren’t you then training to fail? Because you’re training things that will crumble at a certain level of intensity, right.
[/quote]
again… this is so crazy. of course practicing things that would never work in real life is useless. when did i or anyone ever advocate or defend this. also, why are you talking like you know what i train will crumble at certain levels of intensity?
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;961200]
So, how do you KNOW it will work at 100%, full-out intensity unless you do it?[/quote]
no argument there
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;961200]
And, if you want to train something, whatever it is, shouldn’t you train it as you intend to do it? Now, I’m not saying that lower intensity drilling doesn’t have its usefulness, but that skill in doing X comes from doing X. [/quote]
no argument here again.
this is another example of you arguing against ghosts.
although you may say low intensity and drills have its place, you poo poo any vid that doesnt show two people going bananas on each other.
you also poo poo fundamental WC principles and poo poo WC as a whole and then say that WC is your primary art
while the judoka example sounds impressive you are over generalizing and trying to make a solid rule out of a few examples.
you know what is another natural reaction when some projectile is coming at your face? to close your eyes and to lean back. im sure oyu have seen unskilled fighters leaning back and flailing their arms at each other.
not every natural reaction is a good one and not all styles of fighting will be the same under a real situation
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;961236]Anton Geesnik (sp) the famed judoka once did a seminar where he was across the hall from a dance class. He took his judoka into the dance class, and as an experiment asked the dancers to pair up, and one to lie of the floor and the other to do whatever it took to hold his partner down. Then Geesnik went around calling our the names for the various pins that were being used. The point he was making is that those things are very natural, there is only a limited way of pinning people, and you will find them just by trying to pin one another. That’s how people found these things in the first place!
Or, you can speed up the process by instruction, by having someone who knows them show them to you.
If you get into a fight, and your opponent tries to pin you, it’s going to look like judo or BJJ or wrestling. In other words, it is going to look like MMA.
If you try to twist someone’s arm to hurt them, you’ll find the kimura. If you try to kick them, you’ll find the roundkick. If someone swings at you, you’ll find the duckunder. These things are all very natural – you can see little kids do them in schoolyards. They don’t do them well. That’s where training comes in.
You are right insofar as certain natural reactions can be easily taken advantage of – for example, it seems natural to try and push your opponent off when he is on top of you or turning your head when he tries to hit you. But what I am talking about is using optimal body mechanics (which are hard-wired).
What I am talking about is our using optimal body mechanics to perform various tasks. What that means is being able to perform at our max intensity (full-ouot, 100%). Those mechanics are obviously very natural and are hard-wired.
But the mechanics is just part of the picture. Another part is using those things to play the game. Playing the game involves other things.
And my view is that the WCK punch is very natural – IF you use it in the right circumstances. As I have said before, the vertical fist is due to keeping the elbow down. Try uppercutting with your palm not facing your body! When you are attached, you find very quickly that you don’t want to raise your elbow. If you do, then you either go flying or he takes your back or takes you down. So you keep your elbow down. Then when you punch, you have a “vertical” fist. Your punches also are straight (since hooks involve raising the elbow).
When you know WCK’s method, the tools are very natural.[/QUOTE]
The point is to take the most optimal way of doing something and make it as natural as possible.
Of course certain artificial activities will not be natural, but if we can take a natural movement, like the flinch instinct, and build a combative action from it, it will be all the more effective.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;961359]The point is to take the most optimal way of doing something and make it as natural as possible.
Of course certain artificial activities will not be natural, but if we can take a natural movement, like the flinch instinct, and build a combative action from it, it will be all the more effective.[/QUOTE]
Okay. I utilize the flinch instinct with a cover. I train my flinch to automatically through up a cover hand when I am off guard. Its not natural to parry this way but it can become natural.
But I would love to hear how do you build a combative acticon from flinching???
Is it through high intensitiy fighting? Or low intense drilling?
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;961363]Okay. I utilize the flinch instinct with a cover. I train my flinch to automatically through up a cover hand when I am off guard. Its not natural to parry this way but it can become natural.
But I would love to hear how do you build a combative acticon from flinching???
Is it through high intensitiy fighting? Or low intense drilling?[/QUOTE]
I used the flinch as an example, unlike you puny mortals, I have no flinch reflex 
On a serious note, you first must see what your flinch reflex is, we all have different ones, then see how to make it combative, then drill it with low intensity, then up the drill to full intensity and then train it in full contact sparring.
Just like you do with anything new you are adding to your arsenal.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;961359]The point is to take the most optimal way of doing something and make it as natural as possible.
Of course certain artificial activities will not be natural, but if we can take a natural movement, like the flinch instinct, and build a combative action from it, it will be all the more effective.[/QUOTE]
I get what your saying here. Maybe a example of this from my own experience is during lap sao. When someone goes for a body shot my flinch instinct is to drop my elbow and try to block it. Basically I’m chasing his hands. Just last night I was working on this with a training partner and the correct response to someone taking their hand away to try a body shot on you is for you to feel that loss of connection and go right to punching him first. Your hand will be faster because it’s closer. Hopefully I explained that right.
You can train yourself to have different flinch responses to things. Take playing catch for example. When a child first starts to play catch their first reponse is to duck away from the ball. After awhile their frist response will just be to put their glove up. This isn’t natural and it takes some time to teach the body this new response.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;961359]The point is to take the most optimal way of doing something and make it as natural as possible.
Of course certain artificial activities will not be natural, but if we can take a natural movement, like the flinch instinct, and build a combative action from it, it will be all the more effective.[/QUOTE]
i agree i am all for it. but his whole point was that all fighting is going to look the same because we all move in the same way due to the natural hard wiring of our brains and evolution etc.
my point was that yes we might have some natural reactions based on our natural reflexes and what we think fighting is supposed to look lke, but training will overcome that and if you train to fight a certain way not all fighting from all styles will be the same thing
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;961372]I used the flinch as an example, unlike you puny mortals, I have no flinch reflex
On a serious note, you first must see what your flinch reflex is, we all have different ones, then see how to make it combative, then drill it with low intensity, then up the drill to full intensity and then train it in full contact sparring.
Just like you do with anything new you are adding to your arsenal.[/QUOTE]
Great analogy very useful post…
[QUOTE=kungfublow;961375]I get what your saying here. Maybe a example of this from my own experience is during lap sao. When someone goes for a body shot my flinch instinct is to drop my elbow and try to block it. Basically I’m chasing his hands. Just last night I was working on this with a training partner and the correct response to someone taking their hand away to try a body shot on you is for you to feel that loss of connection and go right to punching him first. Your hand will be faster because it’s closer. Hopefully I explained that right.
You can train yourself to have different flinch responses to things. Take playing catch for example. When a child first starts to play catch their first reponse is to duck away from the ball. After awhile their frist response will just be to put their glove up. This isn’t natural and it takes some time to teach the body this new response.[/QUOTE]
Very true…Great example thank you i will be stealing your example of natural vs unnatural…ha ha.
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;961363]Okay. I utilize the flinch instinct with a cover. I train my flinch to automatically through up a cover hand when I am off guard. Its not natural to parry this way but it can become natural.
But I would love to hear how do you build a combative acticon from flinching???
Is it through high intensitiy fighting? Or low intense drilling?[/QUOTE]
combative action from flinching dont flinch just practice not flinching or just close your eyes and let someone hit you in the face (not hard) just enough to get the feel of things
I agree, this has been an interesting thread! :eek:
I think the most interesting part is the fact that the majority of people here are in violent agreement with each other. The major points have been:
Sparring is good. This is the closest you can get to fighting in a training environment. You should spar the whole continuum from light to heavy as they all have good and bad points. You should spar against people from other styles, then you won’t be surprised when someone does something unexpected and you get to see what works and doesn’t for you against different types of opponents. This is the part of your training where you pick up your fighting abilities. I know sparring is not fighting but as I said it is the closest you can get in a training environment.
Drills and other training can be good also. They develop the attributes that you will need when sparring or fighting. This training includes cardio, strength training, drills ( solo an two man), hitting the pads, working the dummy or heavy bag. All of this gives you skills that are useful in a fight or sparring match but they do not teach you how to fight or spar.
What I really find interesting is the argument of how wing chun will look in a fight. The problem is that it isn’t just your choice alone, your opponent has something to say about that. Fighting, and I am including hard sparring in this, is a yin and yang type of thing. I agree with T when he says that wing chun looks like wing chun only when you have a major skill advantage over your opponent. The more skilled your oponent the more the dynamics of the fight will change. You also have to take into account you and your opponent’s conditioning and fighting heart.
So, in any given match your wing chun will look like whatever you can get to work against that particular opponent at that particular time. There are too many variables to be able to say it will look like this or that.
Personally I think a skilled WC fighter will still look like he is doing WC even against someone who is better than he is. The difference is he will look like a guy doing WC getting beat up. Theres a difference between Fighting with WC and winning oppose to fighting with WC and getting the snot knock out of you.
Win or Loose your art shouldn’t degrade to a halleluyah kick boxer.
Your structure and applications should still resemble WC. If it doesn’t that is due to your lack of using actual WC to fight with. Many people take concepts of WC and fight with them. But just because you fight with the concepts and principals doesn’t mean your doing WC? You must also use the hand techniques, structure, footwork, Theory and Concepts to do look like your doing WC?
Some choose to use concepts and principals only because they don’t like to start off loosing when they spar. Thats why some schools teach you shouldnt fight with your WC until you have learn atleast Sil Lim Tao, Chum Kiu and Bil Gee. Doing Chi sau begins to give you muscle memory on how to use your structure and hand techniques. You should gradually go from Chi sau to Fighting.
But I believe if you start engraining the WC structure and techniques in the beginning and force them fight only use WC structure, footwork and techniques then that person after a year or two will be formidable using nothing but WC with out degrading to halleluyah kickboxer.
[QUOTE=m1k3;961861]I agree, this has been an interesting thread! :eek:
I think the most interesting part is the fact that the majority of people here are in violent agreement with each other. The major points have been:
Sparring is good. This is the closest you can get to fighting in a training environment. You should spar the whole continuum from light to heavy as they all have good and bad points. You should spar against people from other styles, then you won’t be surprised when someone does something unexpected and you get to see what works and doesn’t for you against different types of opponents. This is the part of your training where you pick up your fighting abilities. I know sparring is not fighting but as I said it is the closest you can get in a training environment.
Drills and other training can be good also. They develop the attributes that you will need when sparring or fighting. This training includes cardio, strength training, drills ( solo an two man), hitting the pads, working the dummy or heavy bag. All of this gives you skills that are useful in a fight or sparring match but they do not teach you how to fight or spar.
What I really find interesting is the argument of how wing chun will look in a fight. The problem is that it isn’t just your choice alone, your opponent has something to say about that. Fighting, and I am including hard sparring in this, is a yin and yang type of thing. I agree with T when he says that wing chun looks like wing chun only when you have a major skill advantage over your opponent. The more skilled your oponent the more the dynamics of the fight will change. You also have to take into account you and your opponent’s conditioning and fighting heart.
So, in any given match your wing chun will look like whatever you can get to work against that particular opponent at that particular time. There are too many variables to be able to say it will look like this or that.
:D[/QUOTE]
A World in Denial
“What I really find interesting is the argument of how wing chun will look in a fight. The problem is that it isn’t just your choice alone, your opponent has something to say about that. Fighting, and I am including hard sparring in this, is a yin and yang type of thing. I agree with T when he says that wing chun looks like wing chun only when you have a major skill advantage over your opponent. The more skilled your opponent the more the dynamics of the fight will change.” (M1K3)
…
The crux of the matter is addressed here. But I have to call it as I see it, and as much I still love doing wing chun after some 34 years now, and as much as I believe that this close quarter striking style has much to offer at its range…the fact is that it lacks enough tools to get to its preferred range - and stay there long enough to win the encounter - against some of the elite fighting systems of today (ie.- boxing, Muay Thai, and quality mma that includes quality wrestling/grappling)…and do it consistently enough…without help by borrowing from other systems.
THAT’S WHY THE WHOLE ISSUE IS BEING DEBATED AND ARGUED SO VEHEMENTLY.
As I said earlier on this thread, this “question” doesn’t even arise with other systems (“how will it look in fighting”)…hey dudes, boxing always looks like boxing, the same for Muay Thai, wrestling, sambo, BJJ, etc.)
This is a question that is never even raised in those other sytems…
but it is a question that never goes away with wing chun. THINK ABOUT THAT !!!
The system has its limitations, and the quicker people stop denying that, the quicker the system (in all its facets and lineages) will get better.