Victor, this isn’t just a wing chun issue. Boxing and Muay Thai ran into the same problems in the early UFC fights. It didn’t mean they couldn’t be used any more it just meant that they needed to adapt to new ranges and grappling (standing and on the ground). It then happened to the bjj guys when a bunch of wrestlers figured out how to add some submission defense and ground and pound to their toolboxes.
I like Wing Chun, it is a good tool to have. It reminds me a lot of dirty boxing with clinching, close strikes, elbows and knees.
There is no complete or best art. Its kind of like the game of rock, scissors and paper. If you only do rock it could be a long night if you get in a fight.
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;961888]“What I really find interesting is the argument of how wing chun will look in a fight. The problem is that it isn’t just your choice alone, your opponent has something to say about that. Fighting, and I am including hard sparring in this, is a yin and yang type of thing. I agree with T when he says that wing chun looks like wing chun only when you have a major skill advantage over your opponent. The more skilled your opponent the more the dynamics of the fight will change.” (M1K3)
…
The crux of the matter is addressed here. But I have to call it as I see it, and as much I still love doing wing chun after some 34 years now, and as much as I believe that this close quarter striking style has much to offer at its range…the fact is that it lacks enough tools to get to its preferred range - and stay there long enough to win the encounter - against some of the elite fighting systems of today (ie.- boxing, Muay Thai, and quality mma that includes quality wrestling/grappling)…and do it consistently enough…without help by borrowing from other systems.
THAT’S WHY THE WHOLE ISSUE IS BEING DEBATED AND ARGUED SO VEHEMENTLY.
As I said earlier on this thread, this “question” doesn’t even arise with other systems (“how will it look in fighting”)…hey dudes, boxing always looks like boxing, the same for Muay Thai, wrestling, sambo, BJJ, etc.)
This is a question that is never even raised in those other sytems…
but it is a question that never goes away with wing chun. THINK ABOUT THAT !!!
The system has its limitations, and the quicker people stop denying that, the quicker the system (in all its facets and lineages) will get better.[/QUOTE]
“sorry if you have covered this in a previous post, but can you tell me as to why Wing Chun has no long range game. I read that you said it does not, but why? I know the typical WC strategy is to enter and to get close to try to neutralize our opponents (as that is our specialty), but why a WC person who wished to stay on the outside and exchange w/o entering could not do so successfully?” (Pacman)
…
***BECAUSE the style uses vertical punches wherein the shoulders are almost always squared up to each other, thereby effectively limiting reach…as opposed to, for example, a boxer’s lead, or a rear cross, or a round overhand, all of which EXTEND the arms to a further distance due to rotating so that the shoulders are NOT squared up to each other…and because the footwork is more elusive and dynamic than what is typically used in WC - making for a better delivery system and a possible quick retreat out to the preferred longer range.
…
"lets say that WC has no long range game. that would be like the equivalent of two boxers where one had a significant reach advantage. so if you put oscar de la hoya vs lennox lewis, do you think oscar would lose all composure and skill, forget all footwork and timing and just do a kamikaze attack against lewis? i dont. he would be at a disadvantage, but he could use other skills to get in close.
another analogy is with weapons since you brought them up. the spear was not necessarily the best weapon and could be defeated by shorter weapons. even the scholars sword". (Pacman)
…
**AND if the smaller boxer is not able to get close, ie.-de la hoya, he’s going to lose. There are no other skills for him to use in a fight like that. As for the spear, you can only beat it with a shorter weapon if you can get very close. LOL at doing that against a skilled fighter with a spear. Impossible? No. Improbable? Yes.
The intense portion of a fight is when leg or hand contact is possible. If you can reach them they can reach you and vice versa. The real question involves ways to handle contact and whether one has practiced top quality wing chun footwork. Ah well-same old same old points.
Attack the outer gates and inner gates by hitting your opponent in the face and throat with your vertical punches and gan sau.
Wing Chun Long Range is as follows.
Attack your opponents guards. Constantly punch them, Jum them, Pak them and Gan them as hard as you can. Constantly stomp his foot or knee. Kick his shins and knees. Continously stay away from his feet when he tries to kick your head off. If you can intercept the kick then step on the opposite knee. Everytime your opponents hand or foot is in reach hit it. Move around alot. Feint and stop being a target. Tire your opponent out so he makes an mistake. Constantly counter every long range technique he throws.
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;961946] ***BECAUSE the style uses vertical punches wherein the shoulders are almost always squared up to each other, thereby effectively limiting reach…as opposed to, for example, a boxer’s lead, or a rear cross, or a round overhand, all of which EXTEND the arms to a further distance due to rotating so that the shoulders are NOT squared up to each other…and because the footwork is more elusive and dynamic than what is typically used in WC - making for a better delivery system and a possible quick retreat out to the preferred longer range.
[/QUOTE]
While it’s true that WC does use a ‘shorter range’ punch, that doesn’t mean it has to bridge with those close range shapes. Nor does it mean that ‘WC’ only exists once you are in that range. WC has long and short range bridging abilities, which allows the practitioner to engage the opponent from what some term as the outside range, in 180 degrees, to get into a range and position where they can use those shorter range ‘WC punches’ effectively.
To say WC is close range only because the fighter is ‘more squared up’ when striking is a misrepresentation of the system IMO. To say WC is just close range striking system would be ignoring the bridging aspects of WC, which start with Bai Jong and allows the practitioner a chance to connect with the opponent safely, bridge the gap, controll the line and apponent’s COG and safely deliver strikes from a position of advantage - From longer range into closer-in striking range.
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;961946] **AND if the smaller boxer is not able to get close, ie.-de la hoya, he’s going to lose. There are no other skills for him to use in a fight like that. As for the spear, you can only beat it with a shorter weapon if you can get very close. LOL at doing that against a skilled fighter with a spear. Impossible? No. Improbable? Yes.[/QUOTE]
While I agree that it’s harder to fight someone with a reach, weight, height or skill advantage, WC concepts and theroies still apply regardless.
IMO, if there was a De La Hoya vs. Lewis fight, Oscar’s best strategy would be simply to run
Lenox outweighs him by over 100 pounds of muscle! :eek:
ok i see what you are saying. i didnt catch the first part because in YKS WC we have many strikes where we turn our body. we start from a squared off position with our elbows in, but we turn when striking so i guess by your definition we do have long range weapons.
regardless, in the de la hoya example yes you are right if he cant get in he will lose…but thats an IF. there is footwork and a myriad of techniques for moving in. even if you mixed your WC with the longer range strikes you are talking about, that still wont help you get in. that will just increase your reach by a few inches. you still need the skill to move inside
my whole point about the spear and sword analogy is that the spear has a longer reach yes, but just because it has a longer reach it is not considered the ultimate weapon by any means because once you bypass the spears reach with a sword you can then dominate
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;961946]1. “sorry if you have covered this in a previous post, but can you tell me as to why Wing Chun has no long range game. I read that you said it does not, but why? I know the typical WC strategy is to enter and to get close to try to neutralize our opponents (as that is our specialty), but why a WC person who wished to stay on the outside and exchange w/o entering could not do so successfully?” (Pacman)
…
***BECAUSE the style uses vertical punches wherein the shoulders are almost always squared up to each other, thereby effectively limiting reach…as opposed to, for example, a boxer’s lead, or a rear cross, or a round overhand, all of which EXTEND the arms to a further distance due to rotating so that the shoulders are NOT squared up to each other…and because the footwork is more elusive and dynamic than what is typically used in WC - making for a better delivery system and a possible quick retreat out to the preferred longer range.
…
"lets say that WC has no long range game. that would be like the equivalent of two boxers where one had a significant reach advantage. so if you put oscar de la hoya vs lennox lewis, do you think oscar would lose all composure and skill, forget all footwork and timing and just do a kamikaze attack against lewis? i dont. he would be at a disadvantage, but he could use other skills to get in close.
another analogy is with weapons since you brought them up. the spear was not necessarily the best weapon and could be defeated by shorter weapons. even the scholars sword". (Pacman)
…
**AND if the smaller boxer is not able to get close, ie.-de la hoya, he’s going to lose. There are no other skills for him to use in a fight like that. As for the spear, you can only beat it with a shorter weapon if you can get very close. LOL at doing that against a skilled fighter with a spear. Impossible? No. Improbable? Yes.[/QUOTE]
If give this another try, but I suspect that no matter what, it’s going to fall on deaf ears.
In the following vid, which lasts for 2:40 - pay particular attention to the first 1:10 of it. It was made by yours truly, and the first 1:10 might throw some light on the “reach” and “distance” issues I’ve been addressing.
in the first video you talk about reach and distance issues taht were apparent between the tall guy and the short guy. i get that.
but i dont see how that is unique to WC. even if you were boxer vs boxer–if you fight a guy with a longer reach than you, you will have those issues too
with the way you do your WC punches, then yes you will have less reach than if you did boxing style punches, but its all relative. at some point whether boxer or WC’er you will fight someone where you have a significant reach disadvantage.
If I use longer range boxing moves, punches, footwork, etc. right from the starting gate (ie.- long range) - then I have a better chance of getting to the shorter wing chun ranges safely…
because then I’m attacking with all sorts of weaponry that doesn’t exist within wing chun…
instead of using limited long range weaponry (that does exist within WC)…
and/or…
instead of just playing defense and waiting until he enters my space with an attack of his own…
because the best defense is not defense - it’s offense.
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;961996]Wing Chun short range is as follows.
Attack the outer gates and inner gates by hitting your opponent in the face and throat with your vertical punches and gan sau.
Wing Chun Long Range is as follows.
Attack your opponents guards. Constantly punch them, Jum them, Pak them and Gan them as hard as you can. Constantly stomp his foot or knee. Kick his shins and knees. Continously stay away from his feet when he tries to kick your head off. If you can intercept the kick then step on the opposite knee. Everytime your opponents hand or foot is in reach hit it. Move around alot. Feint and stop being a target. Tire your opponent out so he makes an mistake. Constantly counter every long range technique he throws.[/QUOTE]
Do you have any pics or videos of you doing anything?
yeah you are correct. it only makes sense to utilize your reach. maybe try learning some YKS WC…turning while punching is integral.
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;962043]If I use longer range boxing moves, punches, footwork, etc. right from the starting gate (ie.- long range) - then I have a better chance of getting to the shorter wing chun ranges safely…
because then I’m attacking with all sorts of weaponry that doesn’t exist within wing chun…
instead of using limited long range weaponry (that does exist within WC)…
and/or…
instead of just playing defense and waiting until he enters my space with an attack of his own…
because the best defense is not defense - it’s offense.[/QUOTE]
Let’s just say, if you are using facing concepts (having the ability to use two hands at the same time) while on the outside range (only kicking range), then you are mis-using the system. You trying to fight in a particular style, instead of using the training to aid you in combat, in other words your being unnatural in your actions. One of the reasons for chi sau is to train “contact” reflexes, what to do when contact is made, if there is no contact you just hit. Like Joy said, the dangerous range is when leg and hand contact can be made which is VT range.
If your sitting there waitin for your opponent to hit you then again you are mis-using the system, why are you still and not engaging in combat, why are you not taking his space and playing your game? Yes, we have to adapt to our opponent, but the same it true for them.
“If there is no contact you just hit…If your sitting there waiting for your opponent to hit you…why are you still and not engaging in combat, why are you not taking his space and playing your game?” (sihing/James)
…
***JUST HIT WITH WHAT? If I’m outside of contact range, let’s say a good 3’ away from even being at bridge range, what do you suggest I hit him with - from the wing chun arsenal? I’m very curious?
Just walk in until I’m real close to bridge range, and then with my next step I can start hitting? Is that what you’re saying?"
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;962056]“If there is no contact you just hit…If your sitting there waiting for your opponent to hit you…why are you still and not engaging in combat, why are you not taking his space and playing your game?” (sihing/James)
…
***JUST HIT WITH WHAT? If I’m outside of contact range, let’s say a good 3’ away from even being at bridge range, what do you suggest I hit him with - from the wing chun arsenal? I’m very curious?
Just walk in until I’m real close to bridge range, and then with my next step I can start hitting? Is that what you’re saying?"[/QUOTE]
Firstly, my thinking is not about hitting someone with something from the “Wing Chun” aresnal. If your thinking this way your limiting yourself, and your trying to display a style. Like walking with a ball and chain attached to yourself, something will always be holding you back if that is what you are trying to do. Basically I don’t see WC as a bunch of techniques, straight punch, this or that block or entry tech, but rather a training method to teaches you to hit harder than you normally would with a support system to back you when your hitting runs into problems(basic ideology). For me there is nothing stopping me from throwing a jab, side kick or any other so called long range strike, WC attributes kick in when contact is made. Application is anything that works in that situation. If someone enters the range where they can hit you, you should be hitting them as well, what happens from there no one knows, as no Martial Art can guarantee anything.
Range is only important if you are not familar with dealing that range. All one has to do if you are training in the Wing Chun method, is after awhile work with boxers, kickers, wrestlers to familarize yourself with what they are doing and learn how to enter on them, mostly a timing thing. Mis timing’s will be made, but this is what the learning process is all about, the more mistakes you make, the better your skills will get, trial and error training. When doing this you are not really concerned with defeating them, but rather just learning from your interaction with them.
“For me there is nothing stopping me from throwing a jab, side kick or any other so called long range strike, WC attributes kick in when contact is made.”
BUT WHEN YOU SAY THIS…
“All one has to do if you are training in the Wing Chun method, is after awhile work with boxers, kickers, wrestlers to familarize yourself with what they are doing and learn how to enter on them, mostly a timing thing…”
***YOU lose me. It’s not just a “timing thing” to be able to enter (successfully) against a boxer, kick boxer, or wrestler - even after you take the time to “familiarize” yourself with what they’re doing. You have to have the tools to make that “timing” work, and those tools come from a lot more than just “familiarity” with what they’re doing - it requires taking much of what they’re doing and getting good at it - so that you can actually use a significant amount of it as part of your game…
because what they’re doing is not part of your wing chun game; which, as you correctly pointed out earlier in your post - “kicks in when contact is made”.
Well almost correct, imo. Wing Chun “kicks in” just about at, but not necessarily dependent upon, CONTACT.
I have to say I respectfully disagree with you here James. Range is always important… Be if pre-contact or contact. If you hit when it’s the wrong time to hit, you very well could be offering a stronger bridge to your opponant then any strike you are dishing out.
The way I see it, many techniques like the WC chain punch fail because they are attempted at too far of a range or when your opponant still has some timing/leverage that has not been sufficiently dealt with.
While I agree with you that Chi Sau teaches reactions etc… in my experience it is more beneficial as a facing/leveraging tool to learn what body mechanics are the correct one’s to deal with the bridging or lack of bridging at hand. IE… When it is time to use a hand gun as opposed to an AK47 or Cannon for example.
Best,
