im confused. Do you mean vt looks like mma in a fight. Crap people look crap when fighting. Or mma looks like **** vt in a fight.
[QUOTE=bennyvt;961065]im confused. Do you mean vt looks like mma in a fight. Crap people look crap when fighting. Or mma looks like **** vt in a fight.[/QUOTE]
I’m saying fighting looks like MMA/NHB regardless of what your “style” is. That’s what fighting IS – that’s how people optimally move when they fight and are hard pushed. I say “hard pushed” since if the intensity drops, people can do all kinds of things – the analogy I like is running: when people run full out, they all “look” alike (you can’t change how you do it); but they can do all kinds of funny walks. Put two people in and have them really (100% full out) fight and whether they do WCK or cornish wrestling or hung ga or kenpo or TKD or CLF or savate or whatever it will end up looking like MMA/NHB. That’s just the nature of the game.
A fight will involve stand-up/free-movement, clinch, and ground – or some combination of those. The body mechanics, tools, strategies, tactics, etc. that really work at each stage are particular to that stage, and any martial art that is viable will use those same things. They have to. Just to use the ground stage as an example: regardless of your style, a fight on the ground is going to “look” a certain way and to fight on the ground skillfully will require that you use the same fundamental skills regardless of your style or art. All those different styles (sambo, judo, BJJ, wrestling, etc.) will by necessity need to use the same mechanics, tools, tactics, etc. They just put them together slightly differently, with differing emphasis, etc. Where is there a “style” of ground fighting that has proven viable that doesn’t do what judo, sambo, wrestling, BJJ, etc. does? Right - it doesn’t exist.
Of course, people can create all kinds of weird ways of moving, use “unique” tools, have various theories of ground fighting, but when the sh1t hits the fan and they end up on the ground, the stuff that works is the stuff that you see in MMA/NHB, it’s the stuff you see in judo, wrestling, BJJ, etc.
It’s the same for stand-up and for clinch.
thats funny because because you have fighters like cung le and lyoto who look completely different than other mma fighters despite your claims
[QUOTE=goju;961073]thats funny because because you have fighters like cung le and lyoto who look completely different than other mma fighters despite your claims[/QUOTE]
They don’t “look” different. When Le and Michida fight, their fights “look” like MMA fights. Are their punches and kicks performed differently? Are their takedowns performed differently? Is what they do on the ground different?
As I said, they all use the same fundamentals. And as I said, how they put those things together is what varies and makes them unique. Silva comes out of MT and BJJ, yet similarly has a unique flavor to his game.
Big deal, T takes a few weeks off the forum and comes back saying fighting looks like fighting - wow, how revolutionary.. So glad he came and cleared things up. We can all sleep better at night :rolleyes:
** yaaawwwnnnn **
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;961085]Big deal, T takes a few weeks off the forum and comes back saying fighting looks like fighting - wow, how revolutionary.. So glad he came and cleared things up. We can all sleep better at night :rolleyes:
** yaaawwwnnnn **[/QUOTE]
I did have a nice vacation, thank you. I love the Tetons. 
If you accept that fighting will look like MMA/NHB, then the next question to ask yourself is whether that is what you are preparing for. Ponder that while you do your SNT. 
no they dont they clearly lok like a shanshou fighter and clearly look like a shotokan stylist
anyone who has seen either martial art alot will notice the difference between these guys and other typical mma fighters
again you claims are rediculous martial arts do not look like two spazzes wind milling at one another
Humm…
“Ponder that while you do your SNT”…and…“WCK is my primary art”.
So good Wing Chun = no SNT/SLT…
Humm…
DON’T FEED THE TROLLS !!! :eek: :eek: :eek:
…
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;961082]They don’t “look” different. When Le and Michida fight, their fights “look” like MMA fights. Are their punches and kicks performed differently? Are their takedowns performed differently? Is what they do on the ground different?
As I said, they all use the same fundamentals. And as I said, how they put those things together is what varies and makes them unique. Silva comes out of MT and BJJ, yet similarly has a unique flavor to his game.[/QUOTE]
now i know why you are in the camp that says all WC Kuen is WC Kuen.
if you say all arts become the same thing surely you would say that all WC Kuen becomes the same
i really dnt have the energy to type now for some reason…but all i can say for now is that there is more to fighting than throwing the same style punch/kick…and btw in your examples they wouldnt do the same things.
[QUOTE=Pacman;961129]now i know why you are in the camp that says all WC Kuen is WC Kuen.
[/QUOTE]
All WCK is personal. Just like boxers, MT fighters, judoka. wrestlers, etc., our objective is to develop our OWN personal game – our own WCK. That means taking things and shaping them to ourselves, to our best advantage. So, we aren’t “doing” YM WCK or YKS WCK or Gu Lao WCK or whatever. When we fight, when we actually DO WCK, we are doing our own personal WCK. We’re not trying to do it like someone else. The branches of WCK are simply various ways of teaching us the skills of WCK.
So, you see, our branch or lineage or sifu doesn’t tell us how to DO WCK – our opponents teach us how to DO WCK. They show us what things work well for us, teach us how to solve problems, etc.
WCK is WCK. It is unique to each of us, yet we all draw on the same material.
if you say all arts become the same thing surely you would say that all WC Kuen becomes the same
See above. It is the same with boxing or BJJ. Boxing is boxing, BJJ is BJJ. The fundamentals are the same. But the individual expression varies.
i really dnt have the energy to type now for some reason…but all i can say for now is that there is more to fighting than throwing the same style punch/kick…and btw in your examples they wouldnt do the same things.
It has nothing to do with “the same style punch and kick”. I’m talking about the fundamental skills of fighting. A hip throw is a hip throw, regardless of the art it comes from. If you want to pin someone on the ground, you are going to do the same things whether you do judo or sambo or wrestling or BJJ.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;961088]I did have a nice vacation, thank you. I love the Tetons.
If you accept that fighting will look like MMA/NHB, then the next question to ask yourself is whether that is what you are preparing for. Ponder that while you do your SNT. ;)[/QUOTE]
No, I wouldn’t. I said I’d accept if someone said something as simple as ‘all fighting looks like fighting’. Can’t you read??
And no, I’m not preparing myself to go fight sport. While I do think that sport fighters can be some bad mofo’s, it’s not what I trian for. From all my past experiences, I know that if I ever get into a fight again, there will be protective gear, soft floors, rules, limitations, refs, time limits, one-on-one only, tap outs and all the other safe stuff you get with sport fighting. I’ll leave that kinda stuff to you. To me, that’s not fighting, it’s sport fighting.
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;961183]No, I wouldn’t. I said I’d accept if someone said something as simple as ‘all fighting looks like fighting’. Can’t you read??
[/QUOTE]
Yes, I can read. If you go back to my original response to bennyvt, you’ll see I wrote: “I’m saying fighting looks like MMA/NHB regardless of what your “style” is. That’s what fighting IS – that’s how people optimally move when they fight and are hard pushed.”
You then responded to my post with: “Big deal, T takes a few weeks off the forum and comes back saying fighting looks like fighting - wow, how revolutionary.”
So, I guess now that you either misread what I wrote or were intentionally misstating my view. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and concluded that you were agreeing with me (since you thought my view was apparently obvious).
And no, I’m not preparing myself to go fight sport. While I do think that sport fighters can be some bad mofo’s, it’s not what I trian for. From all my past experiences, I know that if I ever get into a fight again, there will be protective gear, soft floors, rules, limitations, refs, time limits, one-on-one only, tap outs and all the other safe stuff you get with sport fighting. I’ll leave that kinda stuff to you. To me, that’s not fighting, it’s sport fighting.
It’s amazing to me that this sort of thinking continues. It’s been proven wrong so many times . . . .
What are you preparing for? Tell me how you learn to grapple without permitting tapping out? Do you break each other’s limbs in training? Do you roll on concrete? Do you spar in stand-up without wearing gloves or mouthpieces? I mean, after all, you’re not going to have those things on the street! And by your reasoning, since you are preparing for the street those things must impede your development. You surely don’t want to use that “safe stuff” that sport fighters use.
Here’s what I don’t get T. If the body as you say is hard wired to move and fight a certain way then why train anything. Why not just go fight and learn yourself. Why waste your time on learning techniques and skills if the body is only designed to fight one way. You know the way so why learn anything new. Martial Arts is about training your body to do something different then what it’s pre programed to do. Your body can be reprogrammed to respond differently but you seem to think that it can’t.
To use your anology of the person getting thrown into the water. The person flails about with no skill and the result is lots of splashing with no forward movement. Then you take that swimmer and teach them how to move their body in a certain way so they begin to really swim. This person needed to change their ential response to splash about to something different. Isn’t martial arts the same. Those brawlers are people that have just been thrown into the water. Their first response is to fail about. Can’t we then take them and show them how to use their body in another way to achieve another result aka Wing chun fighting. If you can teach someone to swim with a different body movement then what they are preprogrammed too then why can’t you do the same with a fighter.
All fighting shouldn’t look the same. If that’s the case then then we all should quit what we are doing and just go fight someone. Who needs to train if our bodies already knows the movements.
[QUOTE=kungfublow;961188]Here’s what I don’t get T. If the body as you say is hard wired to move and fight a certain way then why train anything. Why not just go fight and learn yourself. Why waste your time on learning techniques and skills if the body is only designed to fight one way. You know the way so why learn anything new. Martial Arts is about training your body to do something different then what it’s pre programed to do. Your body can be reprogrammed to respond differently but you seem to think that it can’t.
To use your anology of the person getting thrown into the water. The person flails about with no skill and the result is lots of splashing with no forward movement. Then you take that swimmer and teach them how to move their body in a certain way so they begin to really swim. This person needed to change their ential response to splash about to something different. Isn’t martial arts the same. Those brawlers are people that have just been thrown into the water. Their first response is to fail about. Can’t we then take them and show them how to use their body in another way to achieve another result aka Wing chun fighting. If you can teach someone to swim with a different body movement then what they are preprogrammed too then why can’t you do the same with a fighter.
All fighting shouldn’t look the same. If that’s the case then then we all should quit what we are doing and just go fight someone. Who needs to train if our bodies already knows the movements.[/QUOTE]
brilliant. exactly what i was saying about WCK. the postures are unnatural. thats why you will not stick to them if you have not trained enough. you need to re-harwire your brain to use the art instead of your natural response. and many times you need to strengthen muscles so that you can hold these postures
when i wrestled in high school i can tell you it is not natural to squat down. your legs and lower back get tired. its not natural to stand like that. but guess what? there is a purpose and a reason for wrestlers to adopt that posture. and guess what? wrestling is in the holy trinitiy of MMA!!! :eek:
i think your answer to “why train at all”, however is in Ts history of posts. i think it is his opinion that any training that doesnt involve all out fighting is useless. go read his posts. if he ever sees someone drilling or doing things not at 100% intensity he says its useless.
so he is entitled to his opinion and i would be glad to finally have his views clarified because he says a lot of contradictory nonsense
but you said it much much better than i did. my thoughts were too jumbled with shock and horror at Ts other posts of ridiculous nonsense
watch as the conversation gets derailed again into “you must fight with competent fighters” and your points never get addressed
There are many pros and cons to “natural fighting”, just as there are to “unnatural fighting”, for lack of better terms.
Those are non-issues, the only thing that matters is making your chosen system work for YOU and the only way to do that is Spar, Fight, Train hard AND smart and with the best people you can, period.
Realize your limitations, exploit your strengths, fight YOUR fight.
But I will say this:
The more “unnatural” your system is ( and there are advantages to this), the more crucial it is to spar and fight OUTSIDE that system.
[QUOTE=kungfublow;961188]Here’s what I don’t get T. If the body as you say is hard wired to move and fight a certain way then why train anything. Why not just go fight and learn yourself. Why waste your time on learning techniques and skills if the body is only designed to fight one way. You know the way so why learn anything new. Martial Arts is about training your body to do something different then what it’s pre programed to do. Your body can be reprogrammed to respond differently but you seem to think that it can’t.
[/QUOTE]
A thoughtful response.
When I talk about hard-wiring, I am talking about how our bodies move to perform tasks optimally (when pushed to 100%). For example, throwing a ball, lifting a heavy weight, etc. And just because something is hard-wired doesn’t mean our performance doing that can’t be improved with practice.
To perform at high levels of intensity (when we are pushed to our limit) requires that you move optimally to successfully perform task it is your are attempting. As I said, you can do all kinds of funny walks (low intensity) but when you need to go full-out, 100% as fast as you can (high intensity), everyone runs the same way, the way we’re hard-wired. There isn’t some “other” way of running. But there are all kinds of ways of walking.
Good MA IMO helps you find those optimal mechanics for various tasks and to develop them. It’s not that we all fight one way, it’s that there are optimal mechanics (and movement, tactics, etc.) in stand-up, in clinch, and on the ground. All the valid MAs use those same things, just emphasize them differently, combine them differently, etc.
To use your anology of the person getting thrown into the water. The person flails about with no skill and the result is lots of splashing with no forward movement. Then you take that swimmer and teach them how to move their body in a certain way so they begin to really swim. This person needed to change their ential response to splash about to something different. Isn’t martial arts the same. Those brawlers are people that have just been thrown into the water. Their first response is to fail about. Can’t we then take them and show them how to use their body in another way to achieve another result aka Wing chun fighting. If you can teach someone to swim with a different body movement then what they are preprogrammed too then why can’t you do the same with a fighter.
When you first throw someone in the water, the will flail about. But with practice, even with no instruction, they will work out how to swim and can become good swimmers. And they will be doing exactly what ALL swimmers do. What a good swimming teacher does is speed up that process.
All fighting shouldn’t look the same. If that’s the case then then we all should quit what we are doing and just go fight someone. Who needs to train if our bodies already knows the movements.
Does all groundfighting “look” the same? Yes, in that everyone who competently fights on the ground is using the same fundamentals (which use our hard-wired movement). But how they use them varies, depending on their level of development, personal taste, build, etc. All boxers use the same fundamentals yet are not carbon copies.
And there is more to fighting that using hard-wired movement. We need to learn to play the game with that hard-wired movement.
[QUOTE=Pacman;961190]brilliant. exactly what i was saying about WCK. the postures are unnatural. thats why you will not stick to them if you have not trained enough. you need to re-harwire your brain to use the art instead of your natural response. and many times you need to strengthen muscles so that you can hold these postures
[/QUOTE]
You speak of the “postures of WCK being unnatural”. Well, perhaps what you and some others are doing is unnatural. But I find what I am doing to be very natural.
You can’t re-wire your body. You can’t re-hard-wire your brain to lift heavy weights differently or to run differently. Your body is “designed” (evolution) to move optimally in certain ways. There’s no getting around that. And there are many other in-born constraints on what we can or cannot do.
when i wrestled in high school i can tell you it is not natural to squat down. your legs and lower back get tired. its not natural to stand like that. but guess what? there is a purpose and a reason for wrestlers to adopt that posture. and guess what? wrestling is in the holy trinitiy of MMA!!! :eek:
Here’s what you don’t get – yes, it is unnatural to STAND like that, but if you want to explode into something, then it is very natural. It’s not natural to walk around pushing your hips forwar, but if you are trying to curl a heavy weight then it is natural. The mechanics depend on the TASK. Don’t you grasp that?
i think your answer to “why train at all”, however is in Ts history of posts. i think it is his opinion that any training that doesnt involve all out fighting is useless. go read his posts. if he ever sees someone drilling or doing things not at 100% intensity he says its useless.
You aren’t reading my posts.
Let me ask you a question: if what you are practicing doesn’t work at 100% full-out intensity (which is what you will be facing in a fight), then why train it? Aren’t you then training to fail? Because you’re training things that will crumble at a certain level of intensity, right.
So, how do you KNOW it will work at 100%, full-out intensity unless you do it?
And, if you want to train something, whatever it is, shouldn’t you train it as you intend to do it? Now, I’m not saying that lower intensity drilling doesn’t have its usefulness, but that skill in doing X comes from doing X.
so he is entitled to his opinion and i would be glad to finally have his views clarified because he says a lot of contradictory nonsense
You don’t understand my views because you are not reading them to understand them.
anyone who argues going 100 percent intensity doesnt know what hes talking about
i recall a shotokan master i forget his name who passed away recently who was a product of a karate school that went full out all the time and he even admitted it was too much and as a result he said in his exact words “ive been broken in so many places”
it is something you can only do here and there
[QUOTE=goju;961203]anyone who argues going 100 percent intensity doesnt know what hes talking about
i recall a shotokan master i forget his name who passed away recently who was a product of a karate school that went full out all the time and he even admitted it was too much and as a result he said in his exact words “ive been broken in so many places”
it is something you can only do here and there[/QUOTE]
When you fight, when someone is trying to beat you into oblivion, are you going to go at 100% intensity?
If so, how long will you last if you never train at that intensity?
And, do you realize that you can increase your max intensity by training at or near intensity? Or, do you think that you can become a faster sprinter by jogging around the track (to borrow Bruce’s example)?
Terrence,
You are not suggesting training full contact 100% intensity all the time are you?
Even pro fighters don’t do that.