Wing Chun sparring

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
81

[QUOTE=Pacman;960575]i think sanjuro brought up a great point and it is the answer to a lot of the statements by knifefighter and niehoff who say “this is how WC will look when in a real situation” when referring to youtube videos of WCers who look like unskilled brawlers.
[/QUOTE]

Since you bring up my views – which you, not surprisingly, misstate – I thought I should clarify. Fighting is going to look like fighting. Period. IOWs it’s going to “look” like MMA/NHB. That’s simply the nature of fighting. That’s my view. And, it is one backed up by overwhelming evidence: all you need to do is look at any genuine fights (where both sides have really bad intentions) and what do you see?

Since this is what a fight is going to be, the question anyone interested in preparing for fighting needs to address is: does their training prepare them for THAT? Are you going to be able to fit into THAT and prevail?

It’s like looking at american football or rugby – you can see what it is going to look like, and see what you are going to need to do IF you want to play those games. The very nature of the game determines the skills you need.

What frequently happens is people don’t prepare for THAT but try to train for how they believe a fight SHOULD be (“I have a theory”). And so when they do ever fight, they naturally end up looking like untrained brawlers since that is essentially what they are – as they have never developed genuine fighting skills.

WC posture is unnatural. its difficult to maintain. it can take lots of leg strength and you have to develop muscles that normally arent very strong. its not natural to put your elbows in, to tuck in your pelvis, etc etc. the “kickboxing” posture is more natural.

Without commenting on your mistaken view of WCK, let me say that our bodies are “hardwired” as to how they will move optimally at intensity (100% full out, full power). You can’t change that – it’s how we are “designed”. If you “train” to move in some other way, then you either won’t be able to function well at intensity or you will override your “training” and move “naturally”. IME a great many people are training to fail.

if you have not trained sufficiently, under a pressure situation all your training goes out the window. you lose all form and maybe even kick in with your natural defense response–tense up, swing wildly, get agressive and try to knock your opponents head off without strategy or skill.

this is the reason that WCers sparring on youtube dont look much like WC. its not because WC cannot be used in a live situation

I never said WCK couldn’t be used in fighting or in a live situation.

The reason most WCK people look like crap is that they are crap. It has nothing to do with WCK, it has to do with (1) how they train and (2) who they train with.

There is only one way for anyone to develop competent-level fighting skills, and that is by training with and fighting/sparring with proven, competent (or better) fighters. This is true of boxing, BJJ, MT, WCK – it is true regardless of the fighting art or style. So if a person doesn’t put in hundreds of hours of sparring with competent fighters, they will be incompetent (poorly skilled).

82

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;960870]Since you bring up my views – which you, not surprisingly, misstate – I thought I should clarify. Fighting is going to look like fighting. Period. IOWs it’s going to “look” like MMA/NHB. That’s simply the nature of fighting. That’s my view. And, it is one backed up by overwhelming evidence: all you need to do is look at any genuine fights (where both sides have really bad intentions) and what do you see?[/quote]

frankly this is the most retarded thing i have ever heard. saying that all fighting is fighting shows such a fundamental lack of understanding as saying all wing chun is the same

as usual, your analysis is very superficial. to say it is elementary is an understatement.

if you watch other vids of brawls and streetfights, untrained people are not going to be throwing punches with their elbow in. they will probably do what they see the most. what they see in tvs and movies. throwing punches from the shoulder, maybe even wild swings. horizontal fists

that was my first instinct when i had no training. even when i started out in WC, i would lose all composure and form sometimes when i sparred and things got heated. adrenaline takes over and your natural instincts take over.

i would be an unskilled brawler like the WC you see on youtube.

however, i was taught to fight those instincts and its instinct for me to hunch, to squat down, and to keep my elbow in etc.

Without commenting on your mistaken view of WCK, let me say that our bodies are “hardwired” as to how they will move optimally at intensity (100% full out, full power). You can’t change that – it’s how we are “designed”. If you “train” to move in some other way, then you either won’t be able to function well at intensity or you will override your “training” and move “naturally”. IME a great many people are training to fail.

you are speakng very generally and i have no idea what you are talkign about specifically.

i specifically talked about keeping the elbow in. its a bit unnatural and difficult at first because most people lack the flexibility and the muscles used for that position.

“mistaken view”. that really made me laugh out loud. you can claim to know a lot about fighting because you supposedly fight a lot in your exclusive underground fight club, but really…stop talking like you know about all sorts of WC. you demonstrated your lack of knwledge of SN WC when you described the 12 san sik

but apparently i have a mistaken view of WC and there is no emphasis on keeping your elbow in the center etc.

I never said WCK couldn’t be used in fighting or in a live situation.

i never said you said this.

The reason most WCK people look like crap is that they are crap. It has nothing to do with WCK, it has to do with (1) how they train and (2) who they train with.

i dont know why u said this. this is a restatement of what i said, although i did not sound as much of a pr!ck as you.

There is only one way for anyone to develop competent-level fighting skills, and that is by training with and fighting/sparring with proven, competent (or better) fighters. This is true of boxing, BJJ, MT, WCK – it is true regardless of the fighting art or style. So if a person doesn’t put in hundreds of hours of sparring with competent fighters, they will be incompetent (poorly skilled).

wait say that again. i havent heard you say this before.

83

oh the hoff is back:eek::eek:

84

[QUOTE=Pacman;960877]as usual, your analysis is very superficial. to say it is elementary is an understatement.

if you watch other vids of brawls and streetfights, untrained people are not going to be throwing punches with their elbow in. they will probably do what they see the most. what they see in tvs and movies. throwing punches from the shoulder, maybe even wild swings. horizontal fists
[/QUOTE]

You are missing the big picture: the basis for everything is there. If you watch untrained (non)swimmers thrown in the water you will see all kinds of unproductive movement too. The environment – whether the water or a fight – is what we need to learn to deal with. You’re right that people will be doing those things in a fight. The next question is: can you deal THAT?

that was my first instinct when i had no training. even when i started out in WC, i would lose all composure and form sometimes when i sparred and things got heated. adrenaline takes over and your natural instincts take over.

i would be an unskilled brawler like the WC you see on youtube.

however, i was taught to fight those instincts and its instinct for me to hunch, to squat down, and to keep my elbow in etc.

It’s not a matter of “fighting instincts”, it is a matter of learning to move more effectively (skillfully). Throw someone who can’t swim into water and they will flail about; with practice they learn how to make their movement more productive.

you are speakng very generally and i have no idea what you are talkign about specifically.

i specifically talked about keeping the elbow in. its a bit unnatural and difficult at first because most people lack the flexibility and the muscles used for that position.

It’s unnatural for you since you are not using it where it is “naturally” appropriate.

“mistaken view”. that really made me laugh out loud. you can claim to know a lot about fighting because you supposedly fight a lot in your exclusive underground fight club, but really…stop talking like you know about all sorts of WC. you demonstrated your lack of knwledge of SN WC when you described the 12 san sik

but apparently i have a mistaken view of WC and there is no emphasis on keeping your elbow in the center etc.

Things like “keeping your elbow in the center” is beginner-level stuff, and adherence to it (dogma) confirms you are a beginner. The elbow goes where it needs to go to do what you want to do.

i never said you said this.

That wasn’t clear so I made it clear.

i dont know why u said this. this is a restatement of what i said, although i did not sound as much of a ***** as you.

No, you didn’t say anything like that.

wait say that again. i havent heard you say this before.

Too bad you won’t listen to it.

People who haven’t put in that work are incompetent fighters – it doesn’t matter if it is grappling or WCK or boxing or whatever. And since understanding comes from skill, an incompetent fighter has an incompetent understanding of his art (and fighting, for that matter). By working with competent fighters people will at least reach the stage of conscious incompetence (they are incompetent and know it). That’s the first step toward competence. Unfortunately, most are unconsciously incompetent (incompetent and don’t know it) and will stay there – happy in their bubble.

85

“I think sanjuro brought up a great point and it is the answer to a lot of the statements by knifefighter and niehoff who say ‘this is how WC will look when in a real situation’ when referring to youtube videos of WCers who look like unskilled brawlers.” (Pacman)
…

***Pacman, I think you and I can debate some things in a civil manner; and in so doing, perhaps there can be a bypass of having to go back-and-forth with those who only want to give you the message that “you suck and they know it all”…

a bypass made possible because the same wing chun issues will be covered without all the self-serving theatrics- and without the need felt by others to have to respond to the theatrics.

So to begin, I also think that many, many youtube videos of WCers look like unskilled brawling - but I have a different take as to why that is.

And it’s the same issue I’ve been trying to address within many threads for some time now; namely that real altercations (and realistic sparring against good opponents) will often look like brawling if one has brought a short wooden sword to a fight against a long wooden sword, ie.-

one is simply not adequately prepared to get close enough (without taking a battering) to use the short sword without having to resort to some MAKESHIFT long range fighting that hasn’t been adequately trained beforehand - and trained with the appropriate longer sword.

Only in this analogy, I’m saying that you need to have a long sword in one hand and a short sword in the other - and you use whichever one makes the most sense at the moment.

86

hi victor

i have three points:

  1. sorry if you have covered this in a previous post, but can you tell me as to why Wing Chun has no long range game. I read that you said it does not, but why? I know the typical WC strategy is to enter and to get close to try to neutralize our opponents (as that is our specialty), but why a WC person who wished to stay on the outside and exchange w/o entering could not do so successfully?

  2. lets say that WC has no long range game. that would be like the equivalent of two boxers where one had a significant reach advantage. so if you put oscar de la hoya vs lennox lewis, do you think oscar would lose all composure and skill, forget all footwork and timing and just do a kamikaze attack against lewis? i dont. he would be at a disadvantage, but he could use other skills to get in close.

another analogy is with weapons since you brought them up. the spear was not necessarily the best weapon and could be defeated by shorter weapons. even the scholars sword

  1. the videos i have seen are WC fighters against one another. never a WC fighter against a different style. so even assuming your argument about WC lacking a long range game is true, these matchups on youtube would be even. i still just see two people flying towards each other with a very linear chung choi (chain punch)…which actually doesnt even look like a chung choi to me but just repetitive straight punches (maybe thats how YM does it i dont know)
87

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;960881]You are missing the big picture: the basis for everything is there. If you watch untrained (non)swimmers thrown in the water you will see all kinds of unproductive movement too. The environment – whether the water or a fight – is what we need to learn to deal with. You’re right that people will be doing those things in a fight. The next question is: can you deal THAT?
[/quote]

yes i can. it is much easier to deal with a guy charging at you than a skilled fighter. you love pro sports as examples. watch any pro sport. who the hell does a kamikaze attack and wins consistently against fighters who use some skill and technique.

Things like “keeping your elbow in the center” is beginner-level stuff, and adherence to it (dogma) confirms you are a beginner. The elbow goes where it needs to go to do what you want to do.

its not dogma. it has a purpose. for protection, speed, and power. we generate our power differently than other arts. its also necessary to do the techniques that we do. i dont listen to it blindly w/o thinking and analysis. it is not dogma.

dogma is thinking you have it all figured out because you took some lessons, got your ass beat, realized you wasted your time, got bitter, watched pro sport fighting as proof of the next steps to take and convinced yourself you now are enlightened.

88

[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;959649] These same people have the notion that fighting is learning, but it really isn’t. I suppose that you do learn a few things when fighting, like not getting too close, or when you should have ran, but in most cases learning stops when you leave your training space. You only get to apply what you have learned when you fight, and very little of anything else as far as technique. If you talk to most seriously skilled people they will tell you that they have spent a great portion of their lives training and working with a partner doing repititious moves over and over until they can do then in their sleep and under any condition, such as fight stress. You need to work with a partner as much and as often as you can so that you learn timing and such. That is where you learn, not sparring in a ring or street fighting.[/QUOTE]

What a stinking pile of bullshit that post was.

89

[QUOTE=Pacman;960866]

yes exactly. there is no need to mix up WC with other arts to fight in the long range. long or short range, WC can be useless or useful. its up to the individual to learn how to make things work.

[/QUOTE]

check out what Sifus Duncan Leung and Alan Lee have up on youtube. I believe they have some really good applications of the longer range bridging and applying WCK against techniques outside of the system.

90

[QUOTE=Kansuke;960910]What a stinking pile of bullshit that post was.[/QUOTE]

its not complete bullshit think you need both.

91

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;960881]
Unfortunately, most are unconsciously incompetent (incompetent and don’t know it) and will stay there – happy in their bubble.[/QUOTE]

like you and your exclusive underground fight club that no one can join?

“hi, kettle? this is pot. you’re black.”

you are so hilarious. you attach that paragraph to every single one of your posts even if it doesnt apply to the conversation. you spout it off like people are disagreeing with you

who on this forum ever said that the best way to train is with people that are unskilled? no one. you’re like rainman over here.

92

lol!!
the first rule of fightclub is dont allow anyone in your secret club

the second rule of fight club is dont ever show your skill and methods of training you speak about so often

the third rule of fight club is you ride the coat tails of a unknown disgruntled ex wc practioner so you opinions seem valid

the fourth rule of fight club is to use terms like"unconciously incompetent"(we dont know what that means it just makes us sound like mr spock with downs sysndrome)

93

[QUOTE=goju;960959]lol!!
the first rule of fightclub is dont allow anyone in your secret club

the second rule of fight club is dont ever show your skill and methods of training you speak about so often

the third rule of fight club is you ride the coat tails of a unknown disgruntled ex wc practioner so you opinions seem valid

the fourth rule of fight club is to use terms like"unconciously incompetent"(we dont know what that means it just makes us sound like mr spock with downs sysndrome)[/QUOTE]

I read this three times, and it got better each time. Thanks for this one! :smiley:

94

[QUOTE=TenTigers;960923]check out what Sifus Duncan Leung and Alan Lee have up on youtube. I believe they have some really good applications of the longer range bridging and applying WCK against techniques outside of the system.[/QUOTE]

I’ve seen some of those and would agree. I’d also say some of the twc vids also show how to effectively bridge from longer range to shorter range without using jab/cross type of counter attacks. Nothing against Vic or anyone else, but I don’t understand the obvious differences in approaches even within the same group.

On another note..
IMO, WC isn’t a range-dependent fighting style, it’s a system with a set of concepts, principals and tools that make a fighter better at fighting. IMO, there is no long range/short range, this thinking can lead to a technique figthing mindset. There is only a distance one can bridge and a distance one can’t, regardless if it’s a longer jab or a tight hook coming in. If I can’t bridge, then they can’t hit. So, there’s either striking range or not. And if I can bridge, WC principals can apply.

From my experience, if I jab against a jab, I am going to create a long/short reach problem with my arms (as happens when throwing a standard boxing jab). From my WC perspective, this creates a time distortion and goes against 4 and 6 gate theories, as well as 2-line offense/defense strategies. I see no reason to abandon these things just because the person threw a longer punch vs. a shorter one. While I give credit to guys like Vic that are going out and trying new things and mixing stuff in at longer range to become a better fighter, I still just can’t see the necessity (from my experience). WC has the answers for bridging this gap imo.

95

[QUOTE=Pacman;960955]like you and your exclusive underground fight club that no one can join?

“hi, kettle? this is pot. you’re black.”
[/QUOTE]

Anyone can do what I did and go train at a MMA school. Nothing “underground” or “exclusinve” about it. In fact, I know quite a few that are doing that.

you are so hilarious. you attach that paragraph to every single one of your posts even if it doesnt apply to the conversation. you spout it off like people are disagreeing with you

Yes, it’s hilarious that I respond to the things people say.

who on this forum ever said that the best way to train is with people that are unskilled? no one. you’re like rainman over here.

This is exactly what I mean about unconscious incompetence: many of you believe in that you and your sifus are “skilled”. But 99% of WCK people, including the masters and grandmasters, are unskilled. Unless, of course, skill in WCK means not being able to fight.

Of course, it is easy to see if you can use WCK competently – just go spar with a good, competent fighter (MT or MMA) and see if you can do what you train to do. With very few exceptions, we never see that. And the reason is simple: unless you are doing that regularly (sparring with good, competent nonWCK people) you won’t be able to handle them. IOWs, they don’t have competent skills.

Sure, they know the curriculum of WCK but they have very litte genuine skill WITH WCK – fighting ability using WCK movement (doing the things they train to do in fighting as they have trained to do them). The only people who do have skill – or CAN have skill-- are those WCK people who regularly go out and trained with good, competent nonWCK fighters and fight trainers – and by train I mean spend loads of time sparring with good, competent fighters.

No one is going to learn how to use their WCK from people who can’t use their WCK. And, the ONLY way to learn how to use your WCK is through your own hard work of sparring with good, competent, nonWCK fighters. No one can tell you, no one can show you, no one can give it to you.

96

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;960970]Anyone can do what I did and go train at a MMA school. Nothing “underground” or “exclusinve” about it. In fact, I know quite a few that are doing that.

Yes, it’s hilarious that I respond to the things people say.

This is exactly what I mean about unconscious incompetence: many of you believe in that you and your sifus are “skilled”. But 99% of WCK people, including the masters and grandmasters, are unskilled. Unless, of course, skill in WCK means not being able to fight.

Of course, it is easy to see if you can use WCK competently – just go spar with a good, competent fighter (MT or MMA) and see if you can do what you train to do. With very few exceptions, we never see that. And the reason is simple: unless you are doing that regularly (sparring with good, competent nonWCK people) you won’t be able to handle them. IOWs, they don’t have competent skills.

Sure, they know the curriculum of WCK but they have very litte genuine skill WITH WCK – fighting ability using WCK movement (doing the things they train to do in fighting as they have trained to do them). The only people who do have skill – or CAN have skill-- are those WCK people who regularly go out and trained with good, competent nonWCK fighters and fight trainers – and by train I mean spend loads of time sparring with good, competent fighters.

No one is going to learn how to use their WCK from people who can’t use their WCK. And, the ONLY way to learn how to use your WCK is through your own hard work of sparring with good, competent, nonWCK fighters. No one can tell you, no one can show you, no one can give it to you.[/QUOTE]

cant the same be said about you and the place you spposedly train at?just because the particular style you practice or"supposedly" i should say is used in the ocatagon doesnt give merit to you or your “gym”

and being that youve given no example of your skill we can assume your no different than some crackpot who does wc and thinks his vertical punch can make a tree explode in one blow?

of course not thats different right?

you honestly think your extending words of wisdom with you nonsense about training realistically

gee you should train hard in realistic fashion? hur hur hur gosh golly no one has ever thought of that snort hyuk hyuk

97

you are not responding to what people say.

every time you completely derail the conversation and bring up this topic, then continue to have a conversation/argument with yourself.

first of all, the original sidebar conversation was what WC will look like in a real situation. you keep saying that WC is going to look like MMA and look like this videos on youtube. those videos on youtube are just unskilled brawls! that doesnt even look like what a skilled boxer or MT fighter would do!

btw, i have sparred people who have trained in MT, Karate, and boxing and i could always do what i trained…and it didnt look like MMA

This is exactly what I mean about unconscious incompetence: many of you believe in that you and your sifus are “skilled”. But 99% of WCK people, including the masters and grandmasters, are unskilled. Unless, of course, skill in WCK means not being able to fight.

Of course, it is easy to see if you can use WCK competently – just go spar with a good, competent fighter (MT or MMA) and see if you can do what you train to do. With very few exceptions, we never see that. And the reason is simple: unless you are doing that regularly (sparring with good, competent nonWCK people) you won’t be able to handle them. IOWs, they don’t have competent skills.

Sure, they know the curriculum of WCK but they have very litte genuine skill WITH WCK – fighting ability using WCK movement (doing the things they train to do in fighting as they have trained to do them). The only people who do have skill – or CAN have skill-- are those WCK people who regularly go out and trained with good, competent nonWCK fighters and fight trainers – and by train I mean spend loads of time sparring with good, competent fighters.

No one is going to learn how to use their WCK from people who can’t use their WCK. And, the ONLY way to learn how to use your WCK is through your own hard work of sparring with good, competent, nonWCK fighters. No one can tell you, no one can show you, no one can give it to you.

you are a moron. this is what i mean. you are having a conversation with yourself. who the hell ever advocated never sparring with competent people, WC or non WC. your response to my comment is like…mind blowing because in my comment i just stated that no one disputes this!!!

how did the conversation even get here. read the original start of the convo. this is a complete non sequitur

the conversation might as well be like this:

“hi terrence”

“bananas in the schoolyard rule rubgy oh my god its christmas!”

“what?”

“i just responded to what you said”

“no you didn’t”

“bananas in the schoolyard rule rubgy oh my god its christmas!”

my theory is that you always divert because you say some stupid **** and then people get you on it and so you bring it back to something that no one disagrees with and then argue for it so it somehow seems like you won the argument

98

**** so all those years and hard work you put into a martial art and you just end up looking like a sloppy amateur mma fighter who flails madly at his opponent:D
i can now see the light

99

“You are not responding to what people say.
Every time you completely derail the conversation and bring up this topic, then continue to have a conversation/argument with yourself…who the hell ever advocated never sparring with competent people, WC or non WC ?!” (Pacman)
…

***AND therefore, Pacman, the reason for continuing to argue with this guy…is…what? :rolleyes: :confused:

Here’s a hint: he’s a troll.

DON’T FEED THE TROLLS !!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

:smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

100

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;960990]“You are not responding to what people say.
Every time you completely derail the conversation and bring up this topic, then continue to have a conversation/argument with yourself…who the hell ever advocated never sparring with competent people, WC or non WC ?!” (Pacman)
…

***AND therefore, Pacman, the reason for continuing to argue with this guy…is…what? :rolleyes: :confused:

Here’s a hint: he’s a troll.

DON’T FEED THE TROLLS !!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

:smiley: :smiley: :D[/QUOTE]

if you know how to do it right vic you can troll the trolls it can actually be quite amusing didnt you see the thread where i got dale so riled up he nearly had a heart attack lol:D