Wing Chun sparring

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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[QUOTE=chusauli;960498]Jonathan,

You are really acting like a jerk…and get inflamed on everything I write. Take a chill pill, dude. No need for attack. If you want to hash things out with me personally, you know where to contact me. But honestly, I am calling you on this. Either put me on ignore or shut up. I have no beef with you personally or your clan. Please don’t continue to escalate things.[/QUOTE]

Don’t be so touchy, and I’m not inflamed and not attacking. I was talking about WCK methods, concepts and principals and you start talking about wrestling - I really didn’t see your point. Quite often actually.

If you have a probelm with the way you think I’m acting, perhaps you should PM me instead of calling me out here, then telling me to contact you. Maybe you can tell me about some ‘colourful stories’ you’ve eluded to at the same time (see my point?) :wink:

And what does ‘my clan’ have to do with anything?

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[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;960500]“Do you have any other bridging strategies to close the gap? I have seen some other TWC vids that show a pak/biu type response to a lead attack, as well as using a bong/laap or kwan sau type of bridge going to the outside. What are your thoughts here?” (JP)
…

***IF you reread my last post, Jonathan, I think you’ll see that I did cover these moves.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, you’re right, you did talk about it. I did a quick readthru while here at work the first timeand didn’t give it the full attention it deserved. Sorry about that - Will comment later. Thanks again for you reply!

63

[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;960497]How do you defeat someone with long rance punching and kicking?

What exactly is long range punching?[/QUOTE]

I’m not getting the long range punching and kicking either. My arm is only so long and my leg is only so long. What makes something long or short range? Isn’t it all striking range or not striking range?

I would think that Wing Chun has everything you need to close the gap and create a bridge. I don’t understand why you need to add other systems in to fill the gaps so to speak. Don’t you have all the tools you need with just Wing chun? Not that I think it’s bad to add other MA to what you do. I do think it would make you a more well rounded fighter. But if you just concentrate on making your wing chun work do you really need more to be able to defend yourself.

64

[QUOTE=duende;960489]Sure, this may very be the end result sought after, however it is easy to see how “outside-the-box” techniques can and do bring these concepts and principles into sketchy teritory.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, agreed. HFY has a great approach in that outside-the-box techniques primarily seem to me to serve to “hand off” to inside-the-box. That is I think also the purpose of “man sao” in many other WCK approaches.

Structure inside the box is a universal working principle, WCK or not.

For example, rolling with a BJJ black belt who has a Braulio Estima type guard, I learn the boundaries to the box and am taught to stay inside the box as every time I get a limb extended out past my structural boundaries that would correspond to inside the box WCK, it gets isolated, I get stretched out, and I tap quickly. When I maintain structure, not as quickly.

Upon watching the Judo competitions at the last Olympic games for examples… It was surprising to see how often some competitors gave up their COM to commit to certain applications and techniques… Often ending in poor results btw. Time was not on their side IMO

Judo has sacrifice throws, appropriately named. They know they are giving up space and COM to execute them. They are lower percentage. That said, edging yourself closer to not giving up as much COM in those throws works better :wink:

I think this is one of those areas where we all seem to be after the same end result, but the means to the end and interpretation of these applied concepts are actually very different.

Yes… What something “looks like” doesn’t matter, as long as it first meets the prerequisite of being at the right time and space.

Yes, the means, interpretation, and execution towards these applied concepts in different arts is that which is interesting and unique and different. Yet as the skill level in the fighter gets higher, I see a lot of the fundamentals which are the same - right space and time. Those are what interest me now currently. The particular shapes that arrive there are not as much.

65

I would think that Wing Chun has everything you need to close the gap and create a bridge.

That’s arguable. But closing the gap and creating a bridge is not the be all end all or even the only effective combat strategy. If the other guy is better at closing the gap and creating a bridge, you might be better to have alternatives.

Don’t you have all the tools you need with just Wing chun?

If you’re on the ground at close range, h3ll no.

But if you just concentrate on making your wing chun work do you really need more to be able to defend yourself.

Perhaps, but if you regard WC as a fighting system with strengths and weaknesses, and you live in a world where there are many effective approaches on offer why would you restrict yourself unnecessarily?

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[QUOTE=kungfublow;960505]I’m not getting the long range punching and kicking either. My arm is only so long and my leg is only so long. What makes something long or short range? Isn’t it all striking range or not striking range?

I would think that Wing Chun has everything you need to close the gap and create a bridge. I don’t understand why you need to add other systems in to fill the gaps so to speak. Don’t you have all the tools you need with just Wing chun? Not that I think it’s bad to add other MA to what you do. I do think it would make you a more well rounded fighter. But if you just concentrate on making your wing chun work do you really need more to be able to defend yourself.[/QUOTE]

Well it’s your own state of mind defining things.

You seems to want to say WC does it all in terms of striking.
You don’t want to make a distinction between long range kicks and punches used in kickboxing and the strikes of WC.

My point only goes to people who make that distinction. Frankly I was just replying on from other posts that were discussing long range kicks and punches.

If you haven’t made that distinction, that’s another issue. You asked for videos of WC at the start. Why not just watch kickboxing videos if it’s all the same to you?

As for having all the tools you need with just WC: I wasn’t discussing the MINIMUM amount of tools necessary in the first place. An artist can survive with a minimum amount but having more tools doesn’t make you any less of an artist.

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i think sanjuro brought up a great point and it is the answer to a lot of the statements by knifefighter and niehoff who say “this is how WC will look when in a real situation” when referring to youtube videos of WCers who look like unskilled brawlers.

WC posture is unnatural. its difficult to maintain. it can take lots of leg strength and you have to develop muscles that normally arent very strong. its not natural to put your elbows in, to tuck in your pelvis, etc etc. the “kickboxing” posture is more natural.

if you have not trained sufficiently, under a pressure situation all your training goes out the window. you lose all form and maybe even kick in with your natural defense response–tense up, swing wildly, get agressive and try to knock your opponents head off without strategy or skill.

this is the reason that WCers sparring on youtube dont look much like WC. its not because WC cannot be used in a live situation

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;960066]While I agree with you I will say this:
That happens because the most natural way to fight with all our tools is the “typical kickboxing” way, that said, I do think that, if one choose too, that by training WC in a full contact environment VS other systems ( not just VS other WC) that the “unique look” of WC MAY be able to be kept, if this training is done from the beginning.
Now, you may ask “why bother” and its a valid point and I would reply that possessing a UNIQUE AND EFFECTIVE style of fighting leads to having a tactical advantage.[/QUOTE]

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[QUOTE=Edmund;960528]Well it’s your own state of mind defining things.

You seems to want to say WC does it all in terms of striking.
You don’t want to make a distinction between long range kicks and punches used in kickboxing and the strikes of WC.

My point only goes to people who make that distinction. Frankly I was just replying on from other posts that were discussing long range kicks and punches.

If you haven’t made that distinction, that’s another issue. You asked for videos of WC at the start. Why not just watch kickboxing videos if it’s all the same to you?

As for having all the tools you need with just WC: I wasn’t discussing the MINIMUM amount of tools necessary in the first place. An artist can survive with a minimum amount but having more tools doesn’t make you any less of an artist.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think that Wing Chun does it all in terms of striking. I would think it would be pretty closed minded to think that this one system has all the answers. I just think that it has enough of the answers to allow me to effectively defend myself. I think you are right the more tools you have the better fighter you will be. I don’t think that makes you less of an artist rather I think it makes you a more well rounded artist.

When it comes to long range and short range punching it’s not that I don’t want to make the distinction it’s that I really don’t understand the difference. What makes a punch long range?

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[QUOTE=anerlich;960525]That’s arguable. But closing the gap and creating a bridge is not the be all end all or even the only effective combat strategy. If the other guy is better at closing the gap and creating a bridge, you might be better to have alternatives.

If you’re on the ground at close range, h3ll no.

Perhaps, but if you regard WC as a fighting system with strengths and weaknesses, and you live in a world where there are many effective approaches on offer why would you restrict yourself unnecessarily?[/QUOTE]

Good points! Time is what restricts me. A wife and newborn as well.

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[QUOTE=kungfublow;960584]…

When it comes to long range and short range punching it’s not that I don’t want to make the distinction it’s that I really don’t understand the difference. What makes a punch long range?[/QUOTE]

How about if I use boxing as an example as it has both long and short range striking.

A jab or cross is a long range punch, the structure used to deliver that punch requires a certain amount of room for the punch to be effective. To0 far and you can’t reach your opponent, too close and you lose power.

An uppercut or hood is a short range punch the structure used to deliver it is different than that of a jab or cross. Too far and the punch is ineffective, telegraphed and leaves you open for counters, too close and the punch is smothered and weak.

Hope this helps.

71

[QUOTE=m1k3;960587]How about if I use boxing as an example as it has both long and short range striking.

A jab or cross is a long range punch, the structure used to deliver that punch requires a certain amount of room for the punch to be effective. To0 far and you can’t reach your opponent, too close and you lose power.

An uppercut or hood is a short range punch the structure used to deliver it is different than that of a jab or cross. Too far and the punch is ineffective, telegraphed and leaves you open for counters, too close and the punch is smothered and weak.

Hope this helps.[/QUOTE]

Wow that does help thanks!

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[QUOTE=kungfublow;960584]I don’t think that Wing Chun does it all in terms of striking. I would think it would be pretty closed minded to think that this one system has all the answers. I just think that it has enough of the answers to allow me to effectively defend myself. I think you are right the more tools you have the better fighter you will be. I don’t think that makes you less of an artist rather I think it makes you a more well rounded artist.
[/QUOTE]

You said before that you didn’t understand the need to fill in the gaps.
Well you just answered your own question.

When it comes to long range and short range punching it’s not that I don’t want to make the distinction it’s that I really don’t understand the difference. What makes a punch long range?

The length obviously.

It’s relative to your reach.

If it’s near the end of your reach = long.
Well within your reach = short.

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Here’s an interesting take…

…on how to mix some longer range boxing with some shorter range wing chun. This guy has some pretty good moves, and a pretty good awareness of distance/range issues. Pick up the action at 0:50 - 3:20 into the vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IQWr_qA7o4&feature=rec-HM-fresh+div

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My take on the range thing from a more WC centric POV is that most of WC operates best at a range where you can use both hands simultaneously, e.g redirecting with one while striking with the other, chi sao sort of range. This OMHO requires you to be closer than the range of a boxing jab, or at the extreme, a mid-level sidekick.

Most WC lineages, mine included, have techs to operate at this range, but they are not the bread and butter stuff that most WC students practice most. Other arts IMO have have richer options at longer and closer ranges than WC’s primary range.

I agree with m1k3, also.

75

you mention re-directing with one while striking with the other…basic level VT training is to make each strike do the job of 2 hands=

1 strike doing both the deflecting and hitting …tan sao doesnt leave the line only teaches elbow positions pre-striking …jum sao is the same…

both in the fist sections of SLT’s …tan ~ huen ~ jum ~ vu repeat etc…many dont do jum sao ..simply go into vu sao …

it is at chi-sao/striking range…we have to extend from a bent arm that is close enought to reach and also use the angles we train in the SLT to function across arms/under etc…in unison doing, as you mentioned one redirecting & one striking as well as the basic striking with 2 free striking hands…that EACH have the capacity to act as 2 of your hands in any strike.

the systematic stages of dan chisao …chi-sao…gor sao …sparring develops these strikes/tactics…

maintaining the assault at our range with relentless strikes that always allow us to attack…kicking, pushing back to striking range, striking again…:smiley:

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“…maintaining the assault at our range with relentless strikes that always allow us to attack…kicking, pushing back to striking range, striking again…”:smiley: (k gledhill)
…

***AGREED, this is indeed the wing chun way - ONCE YOU GET TO OUR RANGE.

It’s getting there that will often require Longer Range Weapons And Strategies than those normally (and usually) found within most wing chun circles, imo. And the more skilled the fighter you’re up against, the more you’ll need the LRWAS.

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[QUOTE=Pacman;960575]i think sanjuro brought up a great point and it is the answer to a lot of the statements by knifefighter and niehoff who say “this is how WC will look when in a real situation” when referring to youtube videos of WCers who look like unskilled brawlers.

WC posture is unnatural. its difficult to maintain. it can take lots of leg strength and you have to develop muscles that normally arent very strong. its not natural to put your elbows in, to tuck in your pelvis, etc etc. the “kickboxing” posture is more natural.

if you have not trained sufficiently, under a pressure situation all your training goes out the window. you lose all form and maybe even kick in with your natural defense response–tense up, swing wildly, get agressive and try to knock your opponents head off without strategy or skill.

this is the reason that WCers sparring on youtube dont look much like WC. its not because WC cannot be used in a live situation[/QUOTE]

I totally agree…Great observation wow…you hit the hammer on the nail!

78

As my Sifu said,“when you deal with the criminal and the insane martial arts go down the drain.”

A lot of wing chun is developmental drills which are good don’t get me wrong but fighting isn’t pretty. Look at felon fights etc. Especially when it’s different styles fighting. Wing Chun vs wing chun or Jiu Jitsu vs jiujitsu etc. look beautiful but differnt styles clash and don’t look pretty.

It is what it is…

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[QUOTE=mjw;960834]As my Sifu said,“when you deal with the criminal and the insane martial arts go down the drain.”

A lot of wing chun is developmental drills which are good don’t get me wrong but fighting isn’t pretty. Look at felon fights etc. Especially when it’s different styles fighting. Wing Chun vs wing chun or Jiu Jitsu vs jiujitsu etc. look beautiful but differnt styles clash and don’t look pretty.

It is what it is…[/QUOTE]

i think what Pacman was stating is how on most of those videos they don’t show any WC techniques besides front step, front kick and chain punches.

In other words Its basically who can punch the fastest wins the fight. Instead of the person being able to intercept and control their opponent. Their are not controlling techniques being down. No flanking, No redirecting energy or force or the opponents center line.

There is merely a bunch a knock em sockem robots.

WC has a great offensive techniques if use with the entry techniques and centerline controlling techniques. But basically if you just go in firing away trying to lay enough blows to hurt your opponent you may not be successful. But if you redirect your opponents center line or trap his arms while hitting him. You have a better chance of coming out unscathed.

I think thats what he is looking for. Basic self defense techniques use against a kick or a hook or jab. When most of the time we only see them just running forward with Chainpunches ablazing before they are even in striking range???

Curious do you guys apply controlling and trapping techniques along with centerline redirection when you spar???

Yes or NO?

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Look at felon fights etc. Especially when it’s different styles fighting. Wing Chun vs wing chun or Jiu Jitsu vs jiujitsu etc. look beautiful but differnt styles clash and don’t look pretty.

i never seen felon fights but i assume you mention them because they look like unskilled brawls. well thats probably because they arent trained fighters and thus they just brawl.

a reason different styles fighting may not look pretty is for the same reason i stated above. people are taken out of their element and comfort zone. thus their technique goes out the window as they might start to panic etc. its not that what they learned could not work, they just havent learned to make it work. its the same as if you train with the same people and then spar with someone who is a lot taller than you are used to.

[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;960849]
…When most of the time we only see them just running forward with Chainpunches ablazing before they are even in striking range???

[/QUOTE]

yes exactly. there is no need to mix up WC with other arts to fight in the long range. long or short range, WC can be useless or useful. its up to the individual to learn how to make things work.

those videos on youtube are the fault of the teacher who never discouraged or maybe even promoted students starting a chung choi from 10 feet away, and then continuing the chung choi even as the student was getting hit in the face for every time he was hitting the other person.

also the teachers fault for not telling the other student to try a different technique against a charging opponent than a chung choi.

rock em sock em robots is the best description