[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1270942]Here is an example by using “double downward haymakers” to “protect your center from outside in”. Is this principle used in the WC system?
//youtu.be/PSpFrnAkBPg
[/QUOTE]
John ,
IMHO, you are slapping hand defensible instead of Wck attack the center line offensively. This is chasing hands
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1270949]John ,
IMHO, you are slapping hand has no action toward center line.[/QUOTE]
Your opponent use straight punches such as jab and cross to hit your face, you use double downward haymakers to deflect both punches. Is that to “protect your center”?
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1270950]Your opponent use straight punches such as jab and cross to hit your face, you use double downward haymakers to deflect both punches. Is that to “protect your center”?[/QUOTE]
IMHO, you are slapping hand defensively instead of Wck attack the center line offensively target the structure. Your technic is chasing hands
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1270951]IMHO, you are slapping hand defensively instead of Wck attack the center line offensively target the structure. Your technic is chasing hands[/QUOTE]
In that clip, it was used 100% for defense. Because the offense after that was cut off from that clip on purpose. You can use WC Tan Shou to set up something. You can also use downward haymaker to set up something.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1270954]In that clip, it was used 100% for defense. Because the offense after that was cut off from that clip on purpose. You can use WC Tan Shou to set up something. You can also use downward haymaker to set up something.[/QUOTE]
IMHO,
This is one step late and putting one is defensive position. There is no significant effect on the opponent. He is free to do his next attack, while you will be busy trying to defense it . He is in control of the situation.
[QUOTE=Faux Newbie;1270940]When I looked up wing chun pole punch on you tube, a number of videos came up like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pVE4_WUhAA
Most say it’s prepatory for long pole, so I wasn’t sure this was the same thing.[/QUOTE]
One is preparatory, the other is applied. That’s all. I have done the exercise in the video you posted (though slightly different) and it is basically a power and conditioning exercise one can do before learning pole. The application of the pole punch is quite different. Thx.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1270942]Is this principle used in the WC system?[/QUOTE]
Yes, though I’m sure it most likely lineage specific.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1270957]IMHO,
This is one step late and putting one is defensive position. There is no significant effect on the opponent. He is free to do his next attack, while you will be busy trying to defense it . He is in control of the situation.[/QUOTE]
You started with your arms away from your center. When your opponent punches at you, you then use double haymakers (Chinese spear technique) that not only deflect (press down) your opponent’s punches, it also moves your arms between your opponent’s arms (this is the main goal). This way, you can enter his “front door”. The effect is shown a bit later.
You may argue, “Why don’t you keep your arms in your center to start with?” Sometime you may like to
Since your arms are outside and your opponent’s arms are inside. By using this strategy, you will have your arms to be inside of your opponent’s arms. This is why I call it to “protect your center from outside in”.
This is the rest of that clip (still not the whole thing - the rest of the move has nothing to do with this discussion). This is a good example that you use “spiral” to deal with “straight line”.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1270951]IMHO, you are slapping hand defensively instead of Wck attack the center line offensively target the structure. Your technic is chasing hands[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1270957]This is one step late and putting one is defensive position. There is no significant effect on the opponent. He is free to do his next attack, while you will be busy trying to defense it . He is in control of the situation.[/QUOTE]
Never thought I’d say this, but I actually agree with carzy ol hendrik on this. I think it’s great that John posts clips to give a better visual of what he’s talking about, IMO the video posted, while a totally acceptable defense application, is more out-to-out, chasing hands and pure defensive in nature from a WC perspective.
WC is about simultaneous offense/defense. I didn’t see this in the clip as there is no fwd pressure toward center, no fwd connection to your opponent and no 2 hands working as one. ‘Protecting center’ and ‘occupying center with fwd intent’ are 2 different things. For it to fit with my understanding of WC’s ‘out-to-in’, you should be going from a place where you have no structure on the A-to-B center to a place where you do occupy A-to-B centerline with structure and fwd intend (simply put). While you are very well going to find instances where you will have to engage with your hands starting at your sides (out) and cannot set up and initial bai jong position (whether you were caught off guard ot chose not to for tactical/strategic reasons) , you should cover the centerline when engaging (in) for it to be WC’s out-to-in IMO.
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1270963]I didn’t see this in the clip as there is no fwd pressure toward center, no fwd connection to your opponent and no 2 hands working as one. [/QUOTE]
That’s not a fair statement. In the following full clip you can see that:
At the end, he takes over his opponent’s position. He “forces” his opponent to have his original position. If that’s not “forward pressure” then I don’t know what “forward pressure” is.
From that position, he can also do this.
John,
Thanks for the details explaination.
IMHO, what you present is an outer gate play.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1270961]You started with your arms away from your center. When your opponent punches at you, you then use double haymakers (Chinese spear technique) that not only deflect (press down) your opponent’s punches, it also moves your arms between your opponent’s arms (this is the main goal). This way, you can enter his “front door”. The effect is shown a bit later.
You may argue, “Why don’t you keep your arms in your center to start with?” Sometime you may like to
Since your arms are outside and your opponent’s arms are inside. By using this strategy, you will have your arms to be inside of your opponent’s arms. This is why I call it to “protect your center from outside in”.
This is the rest of that clip (still not the whole thing - the rest of the move has nothing to do with this discussion). This is a good example that you use “spiral” to deal with “straight line”.
//youtu.be/6i-y6DJsLRU
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1270965]That’s not a fair statement. In the following full clip you can see that:
I don’t know, I thought it was fair - you posted a clip and asked opinions of whether people thought it represented a a specific WC principle. I gave mine that I didn’t think it did and even backed it up with wing chun principle and examples, what’s not fair about that? If you think it does, that’s fine, not everyone sees WC the same way and everyone is free to have their opinion 
to address your points:
no, I didn’t see what I would call fwd pressure toward/on center, more of a circling and downward motion. You even admitted the haymaker defense techniques were being thrown downward, not fwd. To me, if ignoring not going to center which isn’t always mandatory, it looked like only the first part of loi lau hoi sung - just the loi lau. Without going to center and no hoi sung, then it could be viewed as chasing hands.
No I didn’t see it in those first 2 motions, which was all that were shown in the first clip where you asked the question) I was only referring to the 2 hooking defense technique used against the 2 punches. The rest was not in that clip.
again, wasn’t in the original clip you asked the question of. But even looking at the longer clip where he enters in on his opponent, from a wing chun perspective I still don’t see the things I mentioned in my earlier post.
Again, I think it’s cool you are willing to post clips to give a visual of what you’re talking about, and it was a nice clip showing a good defensive to offensive application. It just doesn’t fit with my understanding of wing chun principle or application.
John, to give a bit more of my perspective, we do something a little similar to what you are doing with our noi gwa sau, which is part of out Cheurn Kiu Sau/long range bridging engagement tools. The difference here is, instead of standing in directly in front of our opponent and engaging both hands, we would employ our 6-Gate Heaven/Human/Earth footwork while engaging the initial punch/jab with our engaging kiu covering from shoulder-line (out) to center (in) in somewhat similar fashion to what you are doing, only feeding it offline and then covering the A-to-B center with fwd energy in one motion via loi lau hoi sung, so as to take out some of the timing off the second punch coming in.
Of course in application things don’t always work out like you’d like But the point of covering center after ‘receiving’ the energy form the first punch (loi lau hoi sung) is to take the sails out of the first punch and set up a strong angle & position so as the second punch comes in, you are in a better spot to deal with it.
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1270969]You even admitted the haymaker defense techniques were being thrown downward, not fwd. [/QUOTE]
I think we are clear on all the other comments. I didn’t say this clip is using the WC principle. I just ask people’s opinion on whether WC guys will use “Chinese spear” strategy. By using the Chinese spear, you will move your spear in circle to press down your opponent’s attacking spear. you then stab (this the fwd that you are talking about). The downward is the 1st part, the forward is the 2nd part. Together it creates a 3D “spiral”.
Sorry that I didn’t start with the complete clip. I thought by using partial clip, we can concentrate our discussion on “Chinese spear” strategy. By showing the whole clip, other people may think that I try to discuss non-WC subject in a WC thread (may be that’s exactly what I’m doing :D).
No problem John! Maybe I missed the spearing question, the question you asked that I was answering was “Here is an example by using “double downward haymakers” to “protect your center from outside in”. Is this principle used in the WC system?”.
What you are describing in your last post about the spiral is somewhat along the line what I am talking about, only I don’t think I focus on the downward as you may, and the ‘spiral’ comes form the outside and spirals off line and then back to center. The main difference being, the application in the video does not represent what I’m talking about and I wouldn’t call what you are doing the same as what I define as Noi Gwa Sau, which is more of a crane wing arm signature and plays more horizontally vs down and then fwd. But I do understand and appreciate your analogy as well!
While I agree what you are saying with the spear analogy and it is a viable application of actual spear fighting, Biu (‘Chinese spearing’) techniques as I understand them from my lineage’s perspective are typically for bridging on center, to the the inside of the opponent’s lead arm and moving in a more up and forward motion on center for the most part, not down and in as in your video. Again, just different understanding of the terms and applications?
So while we do use use Biu/Spearing hand to engage, it is more a flip side of the coin of out-to-in. Instead of using Noi Gwa Sau to cover out-to-in in our long range Churn Kiu Sau, we use Loi Lap Sau to cover in-to-out for long range engagement. The initial engagement shape is very much a spearing motion that we call Biu Jong Sau/spearing structure hand. But, it is spearing fwd from and on center/‘in’ and making contact on the kiu/arm (outside of my forearm with the inside of his forearm) before we go ‘out’ to open up our opponent for striking. Loi Lap Sau is the complete action for the full loi lau hoi sung cycle, where the biu/spear is the first part of engagement and centerline domination. But, as I described in my earlier post about noi gwa sau, we use 6-gate H/H/E footwork when engaging with loi lap sau as well vs dealing with both opponent’s hands head on as in your clip. For that, we use something else entirely 
(lol, hope all of this makes sense)
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1270942]Here is an example by using “double downward haymakers” to “protect your center from outside in”. Is this principle used in the WC system?
[/QUOTE]
Kinda sort of. I learned to protect from “outside in” by using a "cutting’ or “excluding” punch that is similar to your video but with the elbow down and not a “haymaker.” It cuts into the center to deflect or “exclude” the opponent’s punch with the forearm as you are punching. The deflecting is downward while moving forward, while at the same time the punch is forward while moving downward with a slight up-turn at the end, so something of a “spiral” as you mention.
[QUOTE=KPM;1270986] with the elbow down and not a “haymaker.” It cuts into the center to deflect or “exclude” the opponent’s punch with the forearm as you are punching. The deflecting is downward while moving forward, while at the same time the punch is forward while moving downward with a slight up-turn at the end, so something of a “spiral” as you mention.[/QUOTE]
I understand exactly what you are talking about. Your “spiral” starts while your elbow is still (or almost) in your center line. You then apply Bong Shou (without raising your elbow that much), deflect your opponent’s punching arm, and enter. This move is also commonly used in the long fist system.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1270989]I understand exactly what you are talking about. Your “spiral” starts while your elbow is still (or almost) in your center line. You then apply Bong Shou (without raising your elbow that much), deflect your opponent’s punching arm, and enter. This move is also commonly used in the long fist system.[/QUOTE]
Not exactly what I am thinking of John. No Bong Sau motion. Its actually a Chum Sau motion into a straight punch.
John, would it be fair to say that, in that video, unlike what others are describing as the wing chun approach, which, if I’m understanding correctly, here is oriented around shutting down the opponent’s limb and taking the center, in what you do, since throws and take downs are your goal, you want to continue (instead of shut down) their momentum to use in a throw, thus affecting their center (versus taking it)?