Wing Chun Curl or sunken chest?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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1

Some Wing Chun doesn’t have the sunken chest and raise back. The curl is what my sifu calls it…

In wing chun the correct body structure is as follows the kuit kuen

Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma

1.Pull in the chest, push out the upper back, and bring in the tail bone.

2.Fill the Tan Tien with chi and distribute the strength to all parts of the body.

3.Point the knees and toes inward.

4.Form a pyramid with the center of gravity in the center.

5.Fists are placed by the side of the ribs but not touching the body.

6.Sink the elbows, the shoulders, and the waist.

7.Hold the head and neck straight and keep the spirit alert.

8.Eyes are level, looking straight ahead, and watching all directions

This is similiar to Tai Chi Chaun

There should be a slight drawing in of the chest which allows the chi to sink to the “Dan Tian”. Avoid protruding the chest as this will cause the chi to rise which will lead to top heaviness, and the soles of the feet to float. Raising the back means that the chi adheres to the back. If you can sink your chest, your back will naturally rise. If you can raise your back, your power will come from your spine enabling you to overcome any opponent. Thus the Chi can sink to the Dan-Tien, and also raise in the back. If this principle is not understood correct, it will not be possible to obtain Geng (rootedness) in the feet, and the whole body will be unstable. Sink the chest and raise the back are similar to when a cat is in readiness to launch an attack on its prey.

http://www.powerattunements.com/taichitheory.html

http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.KuenKuit#Yee

PICTURES OF SUNKEN CHEST RAISED BACKS!!!

RELAXING YOUR CHEST, SHOULDERS AND WAIST WILL CAUSE YOUR CHEST TO SINK ESPECIALLY IF YOU TUCK IN YOUR PELVIC!

http://www.mainewingchunkungfu.com/article15.htm

http://wingchunipman.com/Tradition_KuenKuitOfFormsStance.htm

2

IMHO the concave chest and rounded back position is often exaggerated. The head should be held erect, looking forward as though suspended from a string in a direct line above the center of the feet. The body should be upright not leaning and the back should not be hunched.

This posture is most clearly visible in the upper right-hand picture of Grandmaster Ip doing chi-sau with Bruce Lee. Some of the other pictures are not such good examples, either because of the position of the practitioners or due to the camera angle. For example, the gentleman on the left in the bottom picture appears to have an overly hunched back, possibly because the photo has caught him with his head forward as he is looking down at his hands. That’s the trouble with still photos. They can be misleading.

3

I agree with geezer on all points. There should be no hunch of the back and the chest should not be sunken in. You tend to lose connection to the rest of the body and it’s much more difficult to have any fwd energy from your root, thru the hip and elbows and thru your contact points.

Also, most of these pictures don’t really even show what Yoshi is describing. Some of the examples shows a straight and upright back. That last picture could be because the guy is looking down, or because he really trains that way. That is why I’m in agreement that still photos don’t really show the whole story. link to clips would go a lot further.

4

[QUOTE=Grumblegeezer;1152126]IMHO the concave chest and rounded back position is often exaggerated. The head should be held erect, looking forward as though suspended from a string in a direct line above the center of the feet. The body should be upright not leaning and the back should not be hunched.

This posture is most clearly visible in the upper right-hand picture of Grandmaster Ip doing chi-sau with Bruce Lee. Some of the other pictures are not such good examples, either because of the position of the practitioners or due to the camera angle. For example, the gentleman on the left in the bottom picture appears to have an overly hunched back, possibly because the photo has caught him with his head forward as he is looking down at his hands. That’s the trouble with still photos. They can be misleading.[/QUOTE]
Agreed, Bak Mei and Dragon do the How Hung, I think it’s called. And the older Sifus that I know have back problems now. Your spine should be erect. Ask any Orthopedic Doctor.

5

Put your elbows as far as you can to the center line , your back shape depends on your physical limitations to achieve this. Some guys can easily reach center with elbows with a straight back others struggle.

6

The Chi Gung methods that were added into the system correct the problem of back issues in the future…kidney breathing brings chi back to source…All the techniques affect the back in someway…

a long with that the sunken chest should be natural not force…when you allow your chest to sink than the chi sinks to the dan tien!

[QUOTE=Grumblegeezer;1152126]IMHO the concave chest and rounded back position is often exaggerated. The head should be held erect, looking forward as though suspended from a string in a direct line above the center of the feet. The body should be upright not leaning and the back should not be hunched.

This posture is most clearly visible in the upper right-hand picture of Grandmaster Ip doing chi-sau with Bruce Lee. Some of the other pictures are not such good examples, either because of the position of the practitioners or due to the camera angle. For example, the gentleman on the left in the bottom picture appears to have an overly hunched back, possibly because the photo has caught him with his head forward as he is looking down at his hands. That’s the trouble with still photos. They can be misleading.[/QUOTE]

7

Oh good lord, I’m not even going to touch that one!
(grabs some popcorn to watch the soon to come trainwreck)

8

Unless you do you simply can’t develop a proper stance. I couldn’t bring my elbows in properly because my chest would get in my way.

9

That picture of Ip Man with the rings on his arm is photoshopped…

10

[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1152189] …I couldn’t bring my elbows in properly because my chest would get in my way.[/QUOTE]

The same thing happened with a girlfriend of mine. I never thought of it as a problem.

11

[QUOTE=WC1277;1152194]That picture of Ip Man with the rings on his arm is photoshopped…[/QUOTE]

I thought so. Thanks for clarifying that, WC.

12

i wonder why western wing chun by westerners dont have the sunken chest but mainland WC does?

13

A theory based on history and others’ speculation:
Some might say that a lot of the good, skilled/knowledgable WCK practitioners (and TCMA in general) left China years ago to live in other countries because of the continued rise of communism. So, a lot of the good WCK left china. This could be why you see some missing information and bad form in the TCMAs/WCK in China today.

Well that, and maybe because people just don’t have good teachers, regardless where they live. Example: You advocate the sunken chest thing, and most good skillful WCK practitioners know this has more downsides then benefits. Funny, you mention having to add some extra chi gung to make up for the issues caused by using the sunken chest BS. Did it ever occur to you or one of your teachers that instead of adding more stuff and using a chi gung bandaid, maybe you could just address the problem and stand up straight? :wink:

Speaking of Dan Tiens, you realize we have more than one? Sinking the chest won’t allow you to align the 3 Dan Tiens together - maybe that’s also an issue you’re not taking into account..

14

[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;1152103]Some Wing Chun doesn’t have the sunken chest and raise back. [/QUOTE]

Is there a search button in this forum? If so this question has already been beaten to death before. As a matter of fact, I think it was you who asked the same question before.

15

All a question of emphasis

The sunken chest is IMO is momentary, not a fixed position - it’s a way of transmitting force from the hips in concert with the intercostals, oblique abdominals and other muscles to the elbow.

A neutral position should be natural and upright.

As such the shape is from the shoulder going forwards rather than “sinking” the chest, see the relative position of YM’s shoulders in the above photos.

You learn to do this independently on each side in SLT as part of developing agility in the entire shoulder girdle.

If you are relatively large across the shoulders the effect will be more visually distinct.

Dave

16

To integrate power, one needs to relaxed the chest and expand the shoulder blades (like a bird flapping its wings). This gives the illusion the chest is sunken, but really it is not!

17

good…relax the shoulders, relax the chest. tilt in the pelvic…all in up making your chest naturally sink!!!

[QUOTE=Ozzy Dave;1152257]The sunken chest is IMO is momentary, not a fixed position - it’s a way of transmitting force from the hips in concert with the intercostals, oblique abdominals and other muscles to the elbow.

A neutral position should be natural and upright.

As such the shape is from the shoulder going forwards rather than “sinking” the chest, see the relative position of YM’s shoulders in the above photos.

You learn to do this independently on each side in SLT as part of developing agility in the entire shoulder girdle.

If you are relatively large across the shoulders the effect will be more visually distinct.

Dave[/QUOTE]

18

[QUOTE=imperialtaichi;1152264]To integrate power, one needs to relaxed the chest and expand the shoulder blades (like a bird flapping its wings). This gives the illusion the chest is sunken, but really it is not![/QUOTE]

Agreed, however to me that sounds like the correct position for receiving force e.g. wu sao though I may be misunderstanding your point.

The shoulders also have to move forward and “close” to express force fully in a forwards direction.

In essence a dynamic position is maintained between the two, if any one position is held all the time it hampers the ability to manage force IMO and particularly if an overly forwards position is held for extensive periods of time, particularly in the absence of a counterforce, it risks developing kyphosis of the thoracic vertebrae.

That’s what I tend to think of when people talk about tucking the pelvis, sinking the chest.

Dave

19

Why does WC say tilt the Pelvic in? Why do you think one should tilt their pelvic in?

[QUOTE=Ozzy Dave;1152283]Agreed, however to me that sounds like the correct position for receiving force e.g. wu sao though I may be misunderstanding your point.

The shoulders also have to move forward and “close” to express force fully in a forwards direction.

In essence a dynamic position is maintained between the two, if any one position is held all the time it hampers the ability to manage force IMO and particularly if an overly forwards position is held for extensive periods of time, particularly in the absence of a counterforce, it risks developing kyphosis of the thoracic vertebrae.

That’s what I tend to think of when people talk about tucking the pelvis, sinking the chest.

Dave[/QUOTE]

20

Sign posts not dogma

[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;1152363]Why does WC say tilt the Pelvic in? Why do you think one should tilt their pelvic in?[/QUOTE]

For example, when you stand in yee jee kim yeung ma there are both internally and externally rotating forces generated mainly by muscles of the legs, hips, and backside (glutes), it’s the tension, not rigidity, between the two that gives the ma its characteristic forwards pressure and overall structure and “tilts” the pelvis or more accurately, flexes the pelvis.

You can also merely “tilt” the pelvis using the localised musculature of the lower abdomen, glutes and lower back – that’s a different thing entirely and doesn’t flex the pelvis.

So I don’t think you should tilt the pelvis but flex it.

Why flex the pelvis?

Understand that you understand why WC uses its ma the way it does IMO.

Dave