Alpha dogsez-Sounds like fun, but never on the first date!
Never say never.
just close your eyes and imagine an entire WC thread that is serious discussion…it can happen, I have faith 
Yuanfen
Saying and doing…
red5angel
saying and doing…
Originally posted by red5angel
I dont think that the ground desrves any more attention then any other range but right now it gets almost nil from us WC people.
Red, I am very curious… On exactly WHOM’S behalf are you speaking? The Wing Chun world is a very big place!
Originally posted by Sabu
Red, I am very curious… On exactly WHOM’S behalf are you speaking? The Wing Chun world is a very big place!
Hi Sabu,
I think it is a fair statement that the majority of Wing Chun is not known for its groundfighting ability. If fighting on the ground was a well known aspect of Wing Chun it would be recognized as a part of the system. While there are examples of those who do use groundfighting techniques they more often than not have incorporated things from outside to round out that approach. Whenever anyone is asked to explain “Specific Wing Chun groundfighting” one often gets some vague references which really could be used either way.
I think that if one does have groundfighting within their system of Wing Chun, not the result of outside exploration, then it is a disservice to the art not to come forward with this information. It is far easier to say one has it but often harder to prove it in application. To say that those who explore other arts do not understand WC is hardly fair. But then again does one want to win or is it better to lose yet stick to “tradtion”?
Peace,
Dave
Ok, so who here…from their own personal experience have gone to the ground in a fight?..and in all the fights your’ve been in, what percentage would you say have gone to the ground?
I know in the few fights ive been in NONE went to the ground. In my experience knowledge of standup has been much more applicable/valuable than ground work.
Well, a few
I’ve been in a handful of fights over the last couple of years. If I’m honest, it’s not a huge number.
One went to the floor, and my face remained whole because a friend pulled the guy off me before it turned really nasty 
But a further 2 fights went to a clinch position but didn’t make it to the floor. The time it takes to go from madly swun, fast opening punch to clinch to rough joe-public headlock etc, is a split second.
For those of you wondering about the validity of grappling/very close quarter work, get a book by Geoff Thompson. Not only does he regard WC as an extremely effective martial art for the street, he also stress floorwork, drilling floorwork, milling etc, as VITAL.
This comes from a man whose had more fights than this forum’s combined hot dinners.
Sabu - no disrespect but right now I am speaking for most of the people on this forum, and most of the wc people I have met, a small cross section to be sure. As Sihing points out, anytime it is mentioned here, Yuanfen is the only one who seems capable or willing to talk about his ground training, and he avoids getting into details. This shows me that the experience, atleast on this forum is thin to say the least. If I am wrong lets talk about it, tell me how you train, what you do to counteract being taken to the ground? I have yet, after so much talking on this forum, seen anyone but Yuanfen make any solid substancial claims to this type of training… I have yet to see it being trained at a wing chun kwoon. And I have already gone over how many kwoons etc I have visited, still another small cross section but enough to know the wing chun world is weak on the ground. Look at ANY source to prove me wrong, tourney fighting, class room training, websites, interviews with teachers, etc… no one talks about it.
I am sorry guys I respect wing chun, I believe it has what it takes but I have yet to see any proof WC people are really giving all ranges the attention they deserve.
B&B - as stated in another thread, I have been in say, well lets call it 16 identifiable fights, and none of them have gone to the ground…not to say it couldnt happen though, and not to say I wont train to be prepared.
I’m coming into this thread late and it seems to grow faster than I can keep pace!
I trained with MMA several years ago. The small group included a Goju Ryu/BJJ/Judo, a Kyushinkai/BJJ/Greco, a TKD, a TKD/BJJ, and myself practicing WCK. Before meeting them, I had exactly 8 weeks of introductory BJJ. The class covered the mount, the guard, the rear naked choke, and the cross body arm bar. That was the extent of my ground training.
We did a lot of sparring and did not stop or break once we went to the ground. I practiced against double leg, single leg, ankle picks, leg reaps, etc. I was succesful at defending against the shoot about 50-60 percent of the time. I’d say my odds are much better today than they were back then due to my current training.
I was never choked, only arm barred once (that I can recall), and ankle/knee/leg locked only a handful of times. The majority of the time, I was able to get back to my feet after ‘hitting’ them and keeping them at bay. My chi sao training prevented the grapplers from getting good, tight position on me. Pak sao, biu sao, lop sao, and bong sao worked particularly well at preventing them from getting close. I didn’t have any trouble controlling the space and hitting them while they were trying for better position or a lock. I used YJKYM to keep them away rather than use the closed guard. I was basically using an open guard, which I was not aware of at the time. By keeping them at my knees in YJKYM, I was able to wedge my feet against their hips, kick them away, and scramble to my feet.
I noticed that if I kept good elbow position on the ground, then it was difficult for them to lock up my elbow or shoulder. Similarly, when they went for a leg lock, I was able to sit up and create slack in the lock. While they had both hands occupied with my legs I could still hit their face,chest, and throat. When faced with something new, it usually only took me a couple of tries to negate their efforts with my WC.
I haven’t trained any BJJ since that original 8 week class. I don’t know if you would classify that as cross training or not. The skills that helped me on the ground are the ones that helped me standing up: sensitivity, structure, positioning, timing, facing the centerline, good elbow position, staying relaxed, etc.
I think a distinction should be made between fighting on the ground versus grappling on the ground.
Dzu
I think a distinction should be made between fighting on the ground versus grappling on the ground - Dzu
A very good point. If you are a WC man, you shouldnt worry about grappling a grappler. Just like you train most of your time to strike and kick, etc…they are training to grapple. I believe in trying to make the other guy fight on your turf.
the other thing is, the chances of you actually fighting a grappler outside, on the street, is slim. chances are better that the person you are fighting is just your average joe, or not so average joe, who just wants to fight.
Originally posted by dzu
[B]I was never choked, only arm barred once (that I can recall), and ankle/knee/leg locked only a handful of times. The majority of the time, I was able to get back to my feet after ‘hitting’ them and keeping them at bay. My chi sao training prevented the grapplers from getting good, tight position on me. Pak sao, biu sao, lop sao, and bong sao worked particularly well at preventing them from getting close. I didn’t have any trouble controlling the space and hitting them while they were trying for better position or a lock. I used YJKYM to keep them away rather than use the closed guard. I was basically using an open guard, which I was not aware of at the time. By keeping them at my knees in YJKYM, I was able to wedge my feet against their hips, kick them away, and scramble to my feet.
I noticed that if I kept good elbow position on the ground, then it was difficult for them to lock up my elbow or shoulder. Similarly, when they went for a leg lock, I was able to sit up and create slack in the lock. While they had both hands occupied with my legs I could still hit their face,chest, and throat. When faced with something new, it usually only took me a couple of tries to negate their efforts with my WC.
[/B]
This is exactly the sort of post that I’ve been trying to ask for on this topic; ways in which someone has used Wing Chun to deal with a ground fighting situation. Thanks a lot, dzu.
Anyone else who’s had experience with using WC on the ground want to talk about it in detail?
Fatherdog, you are not alone…
I attended a BJJ seminar last year that was hosted by a good friend of mine. It was a great experience, and I had lots of fun. Training strictly on the ground certainly has it’s merits. I learned alot that day. Every so often I end up at my friends dojo and mix it with some of his students for the experience. It’s just one more range to cover. No one wants to end up on the floor, but if you’re caught by surprise - the more you know, the better off you are. IMO - you should at least familiarize yourself with some of the approaches and strategies of grapplers in case you end up fighting with one. You never know.
In our school, we train against the shoot every so often, just like we train against the fast jab, choy lay fut punches, and heavy roundhouse kicks. There are plenty of things (WC) to prevent the shoot, (some can be fatal) and there are definitely WC principles that can be applied on the ground, but it’s not our style to train fighting laying on our backs doing chi sau. Being a purist - I don’t believe in adding extensive ground fighting to Wing Chun.
I met a Jiu Jitsu guy yesterday in my store, who knew nothing about Wing Chun at all. He showed me some great joint locks, but had a real hard time handling a hard punch (and then two).
I peaked his interest in WC after explaining some principals, and then demonstrating a few things. He now wants to learn WC and that great. I’m pretty sure that if he does learn some - he’s not going to say it’s a part of Jitsu - but Wing Chun.
Rogue - I remember Watchman’s post on grappling. Many moons ago. Whatever happened to Watchman?
LMAOWYATST