Wing Chun and Boxing

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
41

THat’s your opinion, not fact. The mechanics are almost identical, as you could find out from the surprisingly highbrow discussion in the Dempsey book you seem determined to avoid at all costs for no good reason.

Why is a circular elbow good WC, but the similar hook such a huge anathema to you? you HAVE to be speaking out of emotion.

first, i am not avoiding dempseys book. someone brought up the fact that dempsey had good things to say about the straight punch. then he started to debate about that. i said it was irrelevant. i dont know why that was brought up because this whole discussion started when i said WC has no hooks. i didnt say hooks were bad or good or inferior. all i said is that WC has no hooks.

now if some branch of wing chun has boxing style hooks then i over generalized and thats all there is to say about that.

but then you slipped up and you said elbows are hooks. you keep trying to defend that statement and honestly its a bit pathetic. its a very simple fact that an elbow is not a hook punch–even if they are similar. thats why we have two different terms.

next time watch a boxing match with your friends and say to them “wow that guy threw a crazy elbow” and see what they say.

Performance overrides precision. - Scott Sonnon
Efficiency is anything that scores - Bruce Lee

these quotes dont even apply to what we are talking about. even if it did, lee is not the ultimate authority on anything.

42

[QUOTE=clam61;896828]hi phil. sorry if i sounded condescending about the cantonese. props to you for learning any foreign language!

i agree with what you say. when u spar you probably wont be as precise with your movements, as you are during a drill. totally agree with that. but what i am saying is that practice doesnt make perfect. perfect practice makes perfect. when we drill we aim to do moves a certain way because there is a REASON for the move to be done in that manner (which im sure you can attest to, is sometimes very unnatural). if there were no reasons for the form, then this would be a non issue

so although you can look at someone sparring and understand why they are a bit sloppy in the heat of the moment, you can still look at it and say what they need to change and WHY its important for them to make that change.

like i said before, otherwise i can just start throwin haymakers in a fight and say “it worked, its fluid, its a fluid art, its WC, whatever works. whatever works is WC”[/QUOTE]
No problem. Some times it’s hard to interpret one’s true meaning or intent on a written forum. Language is one of my hobbies. I speak a few and I’m learning Mandarin now. And no, we don’t want to throw wild haymakers. :slight_smile:

43

[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;896994] And no, we don’t want to throw wild haymakers. :)[/QUOTE]

I really believe you when you say that your wing chun doesn’t turn out the way that you trained it to be, and to say that especially around those that can apply their structure without deviation could only mean one thing, something is wrong…

The first thing and the main thing is ones stance, and how well can that stance supplement the ideal of offensive and defensive lines or bridge contact, and how well can your bridge control someone’s center of gravity, while all along fighting and defending with structure…

Using structure will take the stress and the muscles mass or tension out of the fight (wildness), while focusing on calmness, positioning and timing… But if one studies the ideal of structure and body unity and how the structure should work as clean as a watch (gear for gear), then ones wing chun would turn out the way they trained it to be…

It’s obvious something is wrong with the ideal of engagement… But to say that your wing chun doesn’t look like the way you trained it to be (wildness) is one thing, and to say that one does not throw wild punches is another…

And here’s something that you consider as good wing chun in action, and something that you should be very proud of; after all, it won you a championship… In some fashion this is how your wing chun may or could turn out in live action,

http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/movie_viewer.asp?obj_width=320&obj_height=240&filename=images/movs/misc/lei_tai07_teaser.flv&filesize=55.6MB

That clip along with this statement almost holds a double edge sword,

[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;896994] All I’m saying is that when in a real fight your form will not look like a choreographed WC drill.[/QUOTE]

Meaning; if it would have turned out good with focus, calmness, structure, positioning and timing, then it would have been all good and should have been that way all along, but fighting that way will never give you a chance to fight multiple opponents… But when it doesn’t look clear, then everyone’s wing chun should look that way when under pressure, NOT…

But to say that wing chun shouldn’t turn out the way that you trained it to be, gives credibility to that clip… But it’s a lot people just like the color commentator on cable that will say; “Man that was wild”…

But when one runs training session based on; if he throws this or that, I’ll do that or this, or work on technique 1, 2 through 50, only confuses the student when under pressure… These are the things that one should be working on if they want to bring their structure to life: calmness, positioning, timing and body unity, and there’s drills that can bring out everyone of those attributes that I just mention…

Ali Rahim.

44

perhaps elbows aren’t hooks (I beg to differ)
but if anyone has seen Tyson fight,
hooks can definately be elbows!:slight_smile:

45

[QUOTE=TenTigers;897139]perhaps elbows aren’t hooks (I beg to differ)
but if anyone has seen Tyson fight,
hooks can definately be elbows!:)[/QUOTE]

Ten Tiger, I understand wherere your coming from, because I was taught to throw my hook (in boxing) and I do teach one to throw the hook leveled, as if one is throwing an elbow

Any good trainer would know that the hook has elbow tendencies and if the elbow lands thats good, as long as it doesnt seems intentional… That has always been apart of the game :wink:

Ali Rahim.

46

WWW,

thanks for the Dempsey links - good stuff!

47

Anerlich,

No worries. I’m glad someone picked up on the links. I was impressed by the portrayal of Gene Tunney as the well read/educated, scientific tactician, going up against Dempsey the Brawler. Despite the fixers, there seems to be something special about boxing, almost an ethereal beauty that MMA lacks.

FWIW, the recent Calzaghe fight against Roy Jones Jnr. is well worth watching.

More significantly, a few weeks ago a documentary aired on British TV, which charts the trilogy between Frazier and Ali, predominantly from Frazier’s perspective. If you can get your hands on it, the documentary was beautiful, storytelling at its best.

Suki

48

[QUOTE=TenTigers;896383]
Oh, and btw-clam…I agree that a large, swinging punch is slower in comparrison to short strikes, which is why a well-trained fighter sets up his strikes, and uses proper angles and range.[/QUOTE]
A correctly thrown hook punch is faster and generally travels a shorter distance than a straight punch.

49

[QUOTE=sihing;896551]Like Sifu Lam once told me, WC is a lazy man’s Martial Art, this saying has nothing to do with the effort one is putting into his training, but rather how one uses his training when in combat.[/QUOTE]

Anyone who has actually fought pretty much knows there is no such thing as being lazy during an altercation. Anyone who tells you that has either never fought or is lying and anyone who believes that has never fought.

50

it’s a figure of speech, used to illustrate the fact that WC tries to use the least (wasted) motion, and most direct techniques. Such as,“Others walk the bow, Wing Chun walks the string”

51

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;897156]A correctly thrown hook punch is faster and generally travels a shorter distance than a straight punch.[/QUOTE]

i cant generalize on whether a hook is faster or slower, because it really depends on the person who is throwing the punches to be compared.

however, a hook travels in an arc, and a straight punch travels in a straight line. and the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. thats not my opinion. thats geometry

52

I agree with the geometry. Straight punch is faster than the hook.
But, Tactics change things up a bit, and I think this was what Knifefighter was getting at.
Many fighters throw the hook more from a nose to nose distance, which is too close to generate straight power.
Toe to Toe, Knee to knee, I can generate straight power. Closer, I feel stronger with hooks, uppercuts, forearms, hammerfists and elbows.
I would be interested in other people’s experience.

53

try this experiment at home, Boys and Girls!
put on some good headgear and gloves.
Stand nose to nose.
Throw a straight punch to his head.
Then
Have your friend throw a hook into your head.
When you wake up, compare the results.:smiley:

“oh yeah, TenTigers?
why don’t you try it!”

“He11 no.
My mom didn’t raise any stupid children!”

54

[QUOTE=TenTigers;897254]I agree with the geometry. Straight punch is faster than the hook.
But, Tactics change things up a bit, and I think this was what Knifefighter was getting at.
Many fighters throw the hook more from a nose to nose distance, which is too close to generate straight power.
Toe to Toe, Knee to knee, I can generate straight power. Closer, I feel stronger with hooks, uppercuts, forearms, hammerfists and elbows.
I would be interested in other people’s experience.[/QUOTE]

Yup. Positioning has a lot to do with what you’re going to pull off. While it’s true that wild John Wayne haymakers are still thrown to this day, most hook punches are tight and very snappy and quick. Oh, and very dangerous.

So, yes…in geometry land a straight beats a ‘round’ punch, but I would go out on a limb and say that even in geometry land, a straight wouldn’t beat a nice, tight hook. :slight_smile:

WWW - I agree with you on the boxing thing. In my mind and how my mind’s eye interprets boxing - it really seems like the Sweet Science of fighting. I’ve promised myself that in my next lifetime I would dedicate it to the boxing lifestyle. :slight_smile:

55

There are a variety of hooks in boxing. A properly thrown inside hook does not travel in an arc… the fist travels in a straight line. If your inside hook is being thrown in an arc, you don’t know what you are doing.

As far as Dempsey’s drop punch, that was more about setting him up to fight out of a crouched stance rather than about generating maximum power. Most of Dempsey’s damaging punches came from hooks and uppercuts, where his power generation was actually the opposite of dropping the level.

56

good points, kf.

57

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;897262]There are a variety of hooks in boxing. A properly thrown inside hook does not travel in an arc… the fist travels in a straight line. If your inside hook is being thrown in an arc, you don’t know what you are doing.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, this is correct. It is fairly common for boxers to use hooks to beat straight punches (very common with unmatched stances). The problem is that many people talk boxing but have never gotten good instruction and put in the ring time so they don’t really know what they are talking about. What they call “the hook” is more like a “swing”.

As far as Dempsey’s drop punch, that was more about setting him up to fight out of a crouched stance rather than about generating maximum power. Most of Dempsey’s damaging punches came from hooks and uppercuts, where his power generation was actually the opposite of dropping the level.

IMO Dempsey’s book is mainly nonsense and only nonboxers give it hype – mainly because of Bruce’s “recommendation”. If you compare what Dempsey talks about in his book and contrast that to standard, good boxing instruction (as it exists today), you’ll see very little in common. And, if you look at some of Dempsey’s fights you’ll see that even he does very little (in terms of movement) of what he talks about in his book.

58

I was shown how one of Wing Chun’s hook punches can be extrapolated from the double Lan Sao turning within Chum Kiu. Say you’re turning to the left, then your right Lan sao, instead of having an open palm facing down, has a horizontal fist. Voila, a short, sharp, structured hook punch. I’ve found it to work quite well.

59

[QUOTE=Xiao3 Meng4;897271]I was shown how one of Wing Chun’s hook punches can be extrapolated from the double Lan Sao turning within Chum Kiu. Say you’re turning to the left, then your right Lan sao, instead of having an open palm facing down, has a horizontal fist. Voila, a short, sharp, structured hook punch. I’ve found it to work quite well.[/QUOTE]

Extrapolating(!!!??? Why not just go and learn an effective technique from someone who actually knows how to do it instead of extrapolating and probably getting it wrong?

60

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;897282]Extrapolating(!!!??? Why not just go and learn an effective technique from someone who actually knows how to do it instead of extrapolating and probably getting it wrong?[/QUOTE]

Because some of us look to the SYSTEM/CONCEPTS for answers. Not ‘outside.’