[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1186528]I had the previlage to do some old school Judo, pre WW2 Stuff, Kosen Judo-like stuff and there was pretty much NOTHING you COULDN’T do, LOL !
The set routnies of Judo, the Kata, were suppose tohave these moves, moves to dangerous from randori BUT moves that were very effective when COUPLED with the skills developed in randori.
The problem is that those kata were disregarded and fell by the wayside and never improved and evolved.[/QUOTE]
I use ashi garami a lot in BJJ and it’s still taught as required knowledge in most Judo schools, you just can’t use it in Judo.
One of the coolest things for any grappler is to pick up a copy of Mifune’s Canon of Judo. It’s incredibly eye opening because you’ll see BJJ’s daddy. I’m not going to take anything away from the Gracies because they took it to a new level, but you really do see why old school Judoka say they don’t need BJJ 'cause it’s just Judo.
The Katas evolved in a bad way IMO… especially Goshin Jutsu. I have a coach that learned the old way and it’s better than what’s taught now.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1186529]I use ashi garami a lot in BJJ and it’s still taught as required knowledge in most Judo schools, you just can’t use it in Judo.
One of the coolest things for any grappler is to pick up a copy of Mifune’s Canon of Judo. It’s incredibly eye opening because you’ll see BJJ’s daddy. I’m not going to take anything away from the Gracies because they took it to a new level, but you really do see why old school Judoka say they don’t need BJJ 'cause it’s just Judo.
The Katas evolved in a bad way IMO… especially Goshin Jutsu. I have a coach that learned the old way and it’s better than what’s taught now.[/QUOTE]
If you can get your hands on these, do so:
Kawaishi judo method
THe dynamic Judo series by Kudo ( throwing and grappling).
For what it’s worth, I utilise an array of cardio and strength exercises to augment my training and, during training, I use a lot of pad and bag work in addition to the usual forms, drills and partner work. The attitude I’ve seen in some of the clubs I’ve trained in is that they expect the students to do all of the cardio and strength training during their own times so as not to waste precious club time doing circuit training. I have never been told to NOT train strength or cardio for fear of being slow..
Silly MAists, as soon as someone mentions weight lifting they’re like “BUT YOU NEED TECHNIQUE!!!”
Of course you need good technique!
But strength and size are certainly not the enemy, nor are they counter productive.
A guy with good technique who can also bench 2x bodyweight and squat and/or DL 2 or 3x bodyweight, do a punch of pullups, etc., will have strong strikes.
Who do you think can hit harder? Who is in a better position when wrestling with a heavier opponent? The guy with 5 years of MA experience who is also a powerlifter, or the guy with 5 years of MA experience and the same level of technique as the first guy, but who has never touched weights because he’s afraid they’ll make him slow and inflexible.
(Assume neither guy has qi blast skills, cuz obviously he would hit hardest).
[QUOTE=IronFist;1186596]I assure you anyone who knows that technique who can squat 300 or 400 pounds can perform that technique without trouble on anyone.[/QUOTE]
Even if you can squat 300 or 400 pounds, you still don’t have that “twisting” power.
[QUOTE=IronFist;1186598]Whoa, why is everyone talking about technique?[/QUOTE]
Because this is a “Kung Fu training thread”. Everything has to do with “combat”.
[QUOTE=IronFist;1186598]Who do you think can hit harder? [/QUOTE]
TCMA is more than just “striking”. From a “striker” point of view, weight lifting may be enough. From a grappler point of view, general weight lifting is not enough. You will also need “special” weight training. This is why
“One should take strength training advice from TMAists and not from body builders”
I thought we all agreed that weight lifting will not be “required” in pole dancing in another diiscussion. We shouldn’t have to go through that discussion again. For a pole dancer, to spend her training time in weight lifting is not smart.
In order to be able to hold a “human flag” on the pole, one will need to “push” his lower hand, and “pull” on his upper hand at the same time. Both forces will be needed to function at the same time. Of course if you can find a training machine in modern gym that can develop pull and push at the same time, that machine may be helpful.
I found this machine is very helpful to develop “push” and "pull’ at the same time.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1186601]Even if you can squat 300 or 400 pounds, you still don’t have that “twisting” power.[/QUOTE]
I said someone who knows that technique.
If they are proficient in the technique they have all the CNS efficiency required to pull it off successfully. If they can squat 300 or 400 pounds their legs and core are capable of generating sufficient tension to successfully perform the technique on anyone.
To be clear, I said someone who knows the technique.
A noob with no MA experience who can squat 300 or 400 pounds (probably) lacks the CNS efficiency to do the technique correctly because he has never trained it before. It reminds me of my weight lifting friend in college who didn’t know how to punch. Dude was **** strong but had the goofiest punching form. Would it do damage to someone? Of course. But by learning proper technique he could increase its power significantly.
Technique. And strength. And technique. And strength.
Because this is a “Kung Fu training thread” and not a body building thread. Everything has to do with “combat”.
This thread has “strength training” in the title.
Also, no one mentioned bodybuilding until you did just now.
TCMA is more than just “striking”.
That’s why I mentioned wresting with a heavier opponent. Did you even read my post?
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1186438]Oneday BK Frantzis asked my teacher about the Taiji “needle at the bottom of the sea”, when my teacher explained the application to him, Frantzis suddently moved behind my teacher, gave him a bear hug from behind, and said ,“Now what can you do?” If my teacher was not good in this move (this move was my teacher’s trade mark move). My teacher won’t be able to take Frantzis down that easy. The bear hug is a very power skill. The person who uses bear hug on you, he has controlled the center part of your body.[/QUOTE]
Well finish the story, bro. What did your teacher do when put on the spot? How did it end?
[QUOTE=IronFist;1186602]If they can squat 300 or 400 pounds their legs and core are capable of generating sufficient tension to successfully perform the technique on anyone.[/QUOTE]
In my personal experience, this is not possible. I had a lot of big strong weight lifting guys with me. Even if I had taught them this move, they still could not apply it by their strong muscle.
I just use leg twist as an example. There are other skills such as head lock, foot sweep, leg scoop, leg sticky, … also need “special strength training” that one can only learn from a TCMAist.
[QUOTE=Faruq;1186603]Well finish the story, bro. What did your teacher do when put on the spot? How did it end?[/QUOTE]
When BK Frantzis got behind the old man with a bear hug, Frantzis was in a low horse stance with bending legs. This gave the old man a chance to twist his leg on Frantzis’s bending knee joint (the leg twist won’t work well if your opponent’s legs are straight), sat on his upper leg with all the body weight, and crash him all the way down to the ground. After Frantzis got back up from the ground, he asked the old man how did he do it. The old man said, “You go to figure it out by yourself”. The old man didn’t like Frantzis’s “ambush - attack by surprise” approach. That was the last time the old man saw BK Frantzis.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1186610]The old man said, “You go to figure it out by yourself”. The old man didn’t like Frantzis’s “ambush - attack by surprise” approach. That was the last time the old man saw BK Frantzis.[/QUOTE]
Haha. He gave him a free lesson, the old school way. Show one time.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1186524]TCMA used to have LOTS of strength training BUT somewhere along the lines the BS overcame it and crap became the norm.
Fact is a strong body is a good body to have.
Fact is that nothing build strength better than progressive resistance training and fact is that no tool is better, generally, for that then barbells and dumbbells.
In short, if you can deadlift and bench press and overhead press and squat with good heavy weights then you are strong and probably able to do pretty much any activity that you require, MA or otherwise.[/QUOTE]
The only problem with your assessment is that if I gas none of my maximal strength gains matter. Conditioning is probably the most important aspect. Nowadays the UFC seems to be that the better conditioned guy just needs to wait for the other guy to gas and then close in.
Not that the way she’s doing it isn’t hard, but it does have easier leverage (if you can do the splits, I mean).
Human flags require good core and arm strength but are really just a show off move. That’s why I was practicing them. Not gonna lie But it’s a very specific CNS adaptation that doesn’t really have any carryover to anything IRL (outside from possible strength gains you get from it).
[QUOTE=RWilson;1186651]The only problem with your assessment is that if I gas none of my maximal strength gains matter. Conditioning is probably the most important aspect. Nowadays the UFC seems to be that the better conditioned guy just needs to wait for the other guy to gas and then close in.[/QUOTE]
as long as he doesnt get knocked out in the first round by the guy with better power
If all i can clean is say 80kg and squat 150kg and im trying to throw a guy weighing 100kg im going to put a lot more effort in and thus probably gas quicker than if i can clean 150kg and squat 250 simply because i wont be exerting as much effort
Is strength the ONLY thing you need? of course not thats why its called strength and conditioning and is seperate from skill work…
[QUOTE=Frost;1186684]as long as he doesnt get knocked out in the first round by the guy with better power
If all i can clean is say 80kg and squat 150kg and im trying to throw a guy weighing 100kg im going to put a lot more effort in and thus probably gas quicker than if i can clean 150kg and squat 250 simply because i wont be exerting as much effort
Is strength the ONLY thing you need? of course not thats why its called strength and conditioning and is seperate from skill work…[/QUOTE]
I was listening to an interview with PGSP who is one of the best. He said he only lifts weights once a week, twice at the most because there are so many other things to work on as a fighter.
[QUOTE=RWilson;1186702]I was listening to an interview with PGSP who is one of the best. He said he only lifts weights once a week, twice at the most because there are so many other things to work on as a fighter.[/QUOTE]
Martin Rooney, the guy behind most of renzos fighters, and the likes of frankie edger etc used to have his guys work S and C 4 times a week, 2 strength 2 condtioning, now its three times because of all the extra training they have to do, how they break the days up depends onwhat their weaknesses are, so weak guys will lift twice and condtion once.
Joel Jamison (who trains most of Matt Humes guys) also only trains them three times a week, and breaks it into blocks of training, but both use the powerlfits for strength because they offer the biggest bang for your buck when training time is limited
[QUOTE=RWilson;1186651]The only problem with your assessment is that if I gas none of my maximal strength gains matter. Conditioning is probably the most important aspect. Nowadays the UFC seems to be that the better conditioned guy just needs to wait for the other guy to gas and then close in.[/QUOTE]
Its not an either/or case dude, so don’t make it one.
You can be conditoned AND strong so why wouldn’t you be?
But it’s a very specific CNS adaptation that doesn’t really have any carryover to anything IRL (outside from possible strength gains you get from it).