Since it’s unrelated to YKW’s Taiji thread I want to continue this discussion here. I like using weapons heavier than normal for my training because by using them I can train many things at the same time. Besides they are much more interesting. So my question is for kungfu’s strength training what can normal weight training give me that heavy weapons can’t.
[QUOTE=xinyidizi;1240804]Since it’s unrelated to YKW’s Taiji thread I want to continue this discussion here. I like using weapons heavier than normal for my training because by using them I can train many things at the same time. Besides they are much more interesting. So my question is for kungfu’s strength training what can normal weight training give me that heavy weapons can’t.[/QUOTE]
It’s common place in weapons system to use heavier "weapons’ in training at times to increase your strength ( and to make the real weapon lighter by comparison).
Pretty much every weapons system has that.
It builds “movement specific strength” that is not always built with general strength training ( especially the specialty stabilizers and such).
It is NOT a replacement for general strength building, just as general strength build is NOT a replacement for specific strength building.
It is important to lose that “either/or” mentality that many people have in the MA because of lack of understanding.
You question here is interesting:
what can normal weight training give me that heavy weapons can’t
Normal, ie" general strength training, strengthens to WHOLE of your body as a unit, which in short HELPS with specific strength training.
In other words, general strength is what helps you push a car, lift a piano, carry 3 cases of beer in one arm and specific is what allows you to kick ass WHILE doing that 
i know for a fact you don’t train heavy weapons
Ask your Sifu.
If more people did that we wouldn’t have half the garbage on this forum that we do. Unfortunately it might also highlight how many of the vocal posters on this forum are not qualified to be Sifu’s and do not have Sifu’s of their own.
Equipment training has a huge role in any functional Chinese martial art that I am aware of. Some do it with weights, some do it with weapons or other equipment, some do it with both.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1240806]
It is NOT a replacement for general strength building, just as general strength build is NOT a replacement for specific strength building.
[/QUOTE]
in kung fu heavy weapons and weight vest is enough for meat shield, but elite level soldiers all lift weights
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1240806]It’s common place in weapons system to use heavier "weapons’ in training at times to increase your strength ( and to make the real weapon lighter by comparison).
Pretty much every weapons system has that.
It builds “movement specific strength” that is not always built with general strength training ( especially the specialty stabilizers and such).
It is NOT a replacement for general strength building, just as general strength build is NOT a replacement for specific strength building.
It is important to lose that “either/or” mentality that many people have in the MA because of lack of understanding.
You question here is interesting:
Normal, ie" general strength training, strengthens to WHOLE of your body as a unit, which in short HELPS with specific strength training.
In other words, general strength is what helps you push a car, lift a piano, carry 3 cases of beer in one arm and specific is what allows you to kick ass WHILE doing that ;P[/QUOTE]
he fails to mention that with heavy weapon training you also have to wear 80 pound weight vest.
there is no “easy” kung fu exercise
lol @ poosies who look for ways to escape hard work
[QUOTE=xinyidizi;1240804]what can normal weight training give me that heavy weapons can’t.[/QUOTE]
The
- “normal weight training” can only give you strength.
- “heavy weapons training” can give you strength + combat skill.
For example, you can work on weight. You can also work on a throwing dummy. By working on a throwing dummy, you can “kill 2 birds with 1 stone”.
If you are truly serious in CMA training, and if your training time is limited, it’s not hard to decide which method is better for you.
There’s nothing wrong with training with heavy weapons, but you can’t substitute that for a strength training program with weights. It’s wrong in thinking that they are equivalent.
Weight lifting for strength will increase you maximum strength, which is the core of any physical activity. Even if maximum strength isn’t an immediate goal, increasing maximum strength will make other attributes (power, endurance, coordination, etc) easier to train. In essence, a basic weightlifting program, which requires 2 or 3 one hour sessions a week on your part, will enhance your heavy weapons practice.
Weight lifting using the basic lifts like squat, bench press, and dead lift is a sure and safe way to efficiently increase your maximum strength. Other activities just don’t compare in terms of efficiency.
[QUOTE=pazman;1240813]There’s nothing wrong with training with heavy weapons, but you can’t substitute that for a strength training program with weights. It’s wrong in thinking that they are equivalent.[/QUOTE]
I assume when xinyidizi mentioned “using heavy weapons”. He wanted to use heavy weapon to develop some “combat” skill, and not just to use heavy weapon to build strength. So the word “combat” is important here.
The following statement can also be written in the other way.
There’s nothing wrong with “weight training”, but you can’t substitute that for a “heavy weapon training”. It’s wrong in thinking that they are equivalent.
If by using your sword to chop your opponent’s head off is your highest priority, the more time that you can hold on your sword, the more chance that you can achieve your goal. Bench press just doesn’t have any “dirrect” connection to “cut someone’s head off”.
A baseball player would swing 4 baseball bats before his 1st swing. Should he do bench press before his 1st swing instead?
If we expand the heavy weapon training a bit more, by using “hip throw” to throw your opponent 1,000 times, you can develop your “hip throw” (his body weight will be your weight training). By lifting your weight 1,000 times cannot help you to develop your “hip throw”.
Thanks for the answers.
Ask your Sifu.
If more people did that we wouldn’t have half the garbage on this forum that we do.
My Shifu had me train with heavy weapons and he told me that this was a more efficient way of using my time.
I assume when xinyidizi mentioned “using heavy weapons”. He wanted to use heavy weapon to develop some “combat” skill, and not just to use heavy weapon to build strength. So the word “combat” is important here.
Exactly. I think time and energy are both limited and it’s better to train strength exactly the way I am going to use it and even for the empty hand combat , weapon movements are still much closer.
Baseball players train with heavy weight baseball bat too.
If he is going for combat skill, then I assume he already trains with heavy weapons and a weight vest and does all two man drills with wooden trainer weapons. Xinzidizi, is this true?
However, to call it “strength” training is a misnomer. If you train for a long period of time it would be “endurance” training. If you use big, powerful moves it would “power” training. But that kind of training is not an efficient way to develop maximum strength.
Bench press may not be directly related to swinging a bat, but dead lift and squats are. Baseball players do all of them, as do any professional athlete.
[QUOTE=pazman;1240823]
Bench press may not be directly related to swinging a bat, but dead lift and squats are. Baseball players do all of them, as do any professional athlete.[/QUOTE]
a lot of times the “ancient wise lineage” come from ragtag government irregulars/meat shields
elite level Chinese martial artists ALL lifted weights. this is why weight lifting is so emphasized in shaolin kung fu, they are elite level.
if a generals standard is high, even the meat shields lift weights. for example, in he family army every typical conscript lifted around 300 pounds.
heavy weapons are for endurance training, they cant increase your strength. you have to hit a wooden post with a stick to develop power.
The main argument is, a swordman may not care about “maximum strength”. In “combat”, whether you can cut your opponent’s head off with a swing of 500 lb or just a swing of 100 lb, it won’t make much difference for that “flying head”. 
This guy looks strong in the movie.
This guy doesn’t look as strong but he is a better swordman in that movie.
In weapon combat, speed is much more important than strength.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1240826]The main argument is, a swordman may not care about “maximum strength”. In “combat”, whether you can cut your opponent’s head off with a swing of 500 lb or just a swing of 100 lb, it won’t make much difference for that “flying head”. :D[/QUOTE]
long range is about endurance. short range is about flanking and first strike. maximum strength matters.
in ancient formation battle japanese can cut off both the arm and spear shaft in one strike. guan dao can cut through 5 or more people in one pass.
a famous story about guan dao is “one strike three heads”. the head of the horse, breaking the sword blocking, and the head of the rider, in single strike.
It is quite correct t state that IF you can do both ( strength AND skill) then you will get the most out of your time.
It works in theory though and not as much in practice and this is why modern athletes do both ( their priorities being dictated by what stage they are in their development or coming into a match).
Here is the thing and using the sword as an example:
Your ability to fight with a sword is based on how much an dhow well you fight with THAT sword ( curved vs straight for example).
Using a heavier or longer ( or both) may work your strength more BUT your technique in using the actual sword will “suffer” ( not the quotations).
You must balance the actual training and fighting with the actual weapon ( majority of the time) with the specialized training with a heavier weapon ( minority of the time).
An ideal approach includes, in terms of strength building, BOTH general and task specific.
[QUOTE=xinyidizi;1240804]Since it’s unrelated to YKW’s Taiji thread I want to continue this discussion here. I like using weapons heavier than normal for my training because by using them I can train many things at the same time. Besides they are much more interesting. So my question is for kungfu’s strength training what can normal weight training give me that heavy weapons can’t.[/QUOTE]
well, it’s a totally different focus, so there’s a lot that lifting will do for you that weapons play cannot.
Kung Fu strength training never didn’t include weight training in the form of weights, locks, balls, devices, etc.
I like using heavy training weapons because when you get the actual there are no weapon retention issues and you are able to hold that thing up and use it longer and stronger than if you had trained with the actual alone.
General strength training improves all aspects of gongfu training.
Heavy weapon training improves only one.
How’s that for efficient use of your time?
[QUOTE=pazman;1240842]General strength training improves all aspects of gongfu training.
Heavy weapon training improves only one.
How’s that for efficient use of your time?[/QUOTE]
It is important to understand HOW specific ST is done in TCMA:
EX: Heavy sword -
The swinging and cutting and stabbing and footwork done works ALL of the body, especially the core and the stabalizers.
It is a whole body workout and while it does NOT work the whole body as well as doing a whole body compound workout does, it does improve all aspects of ones chosen TCMA.
[QUOTE=pazman;1240842]General strength training improves all aspects of gongfu training.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1240847]It is important to understand HOW specific ST is done in TCMA:[/QUOTE]
Agree with sanjuro_ronin on this. I think this is the most mis-understanding part. Here is one example.
In order to appy the leg twisting technique,
http://imageshack.us/a/img846/4981/legtwisting.jpg
http://www.vxv.com/video/VeWBIhACx6iN/shuai-jiao-grip-fighting-leg-twisting.html
You can use your “single head” to “enhance” your leg twisting power.
http://imageshack.us/a/img508/7338/singleheadlegtwist.jpg
General strength can help you to use your leg to lift your opponent’s leg up.
http://imageshack.us/a/img560/7456/qdfn.jpg
But it won’t be able to help you to “twist” on your opponent’s leg and crash your opponent’s body structure “before you lift his leg up”.
The only way to develop your “leg twisting” power is to use your leg to “twist” on some solid object, not lift, not push, and not pull.