Recently I have been trying to get back into shape and doing a lot of Pull ups / Push Ups and strength building exercises. I was just wondering in this modern world we have a lot more technical information about muscle / strength building and better ways to get stronger that people did years ago. We have more information about diet and building bigger and stronger muscle thru proper eating etc etc.
Have we traded skill for strength? What I mean is: Instead of sparring / drilling 5 or 6 days a week maybe we have cut that down to 2 or 3 and the others days strength building. When I was in high school wrestling I remember hearing one of the coaches say: “If you wanna be good at Running… then Run, If you wanna be good at Lifting… then Lift, If you wanna be good at wrestling… then wrestle.”
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1117932]As Gene and I discussed, 30 years ago kung fu was still at least about fighting[/QUOTE]
I remember Kung Fu class was always about fighting and some Lin Gung (strength training) but we always fought more.
Have we started on a path of "If I am bigger and stronger than him I can just pound him more instead of becoming more skillful than he is?
Did your coach also tell you that all other things being equal, the guy who put in more time on the road and on the weights - in addition to time on the mat - was likely to come out ahead?
lien kuen without lien gung is just an empty shell.
I know practitioners who did a lot of lien gung-developmental training before learning technique. Their skill is unmatched.
[QUOTE=Kansuke;1117948]Did your coach also tell you that all other things being equal, the guy who put in more time on the road and on the weights - in addition to time on the mat - was likely to come out ahead?[/QUOTE]
I always have cross trained but more on the lines of 70% Fighting and Fighting drills and the other 30% split between Strength building / Running / Stretching etc etc.
Have we changed the 70% rule to:
30% Fighting and Fighting drills
70% Strength / Conditioning
All the skill in the world can’t help you if you can’t apply that skill and application comes from you body being ABLE to do your skillset.
Strength is crucial for EVERYTHING we do, even everyday activities, it make sense that it would be crucial for MA.
HOW crucial is another matter.
You need a balance of 1/3 skill, 1/3 strength and 1/3 speed, all together that egual correct conditoning for your chosen activity.
Calculating percentages and such will just lead to hair-splitting and pointless speculation, but it is particularly the case in wrestling that the importance of conditioning cannot be overstated. Money in the bank.
there was an expression in Fukien Bak Hok, later used in Okinawan Goju;
“Three years saamjien (sanchin)”
These guys did nothing but Sanchin, Hojo Undo (jars, rings, weights, stones, makiwara, etc) for the first three years of training before learning other techniques.
And they were beasts.
I have a book of boxing workouts of top fighters. I would say at least 70% was conditioning.
That being said, do people compensate for lack of technique with strength? Beginners certainly do.
That is why the expression, “Beginners should not use strength” exists.
Funny-half the people overcompensate with strength, the other half doesn’t want to put in the time for developmental training and just want to hit.
[QUOTE=Kansuke;1117966]Calculating percentages and such will just lead to hair-splitting and pointless speculation, but it is particularly the case in wrestling that the importance of conditioning cannot be overstated. Money in the bank.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1117968]there was an expression in Fukien Bak Hok, later used in Okinawan Goju;
“Three years saamjien (sanchin)”
These guys did nothing but Sanchin, Hojo Undo (jars, rings, weights, stones, makiwara, etc) for the first three years of training before learning other techniques.
And they were beasts.
I have a book of boxing workouts of top fighters. I would say at least 70% was conditioning.
That being said, do people compensate for lack of technique with strength? Beginners certainly do.
That is why the expression, “Beginners should not use strength” exists.
Funny-half the people overcompensate with strength, the other half doesn’t want to put in the time for developmental training and just want to hit.[/QUOTE]
You always tend to compensate with strength, its only natural.
Thing is that, at times, it may FEEL that way to the other person but isn’t always the case.
EX:
When I started adding ST to mu judo, I got stronger and my partners woudl say that I was “muscling” the moves, I didn’t see it that way, why?
Because I felt I was using even LESS strength than I used to!
Why? Because it was stronger it felt that way to ME and my partners were also correct in what they felt too.
Have we traded skill for strength? What I mean is: Instead of sparring / drilling 5 or 6 days a week maybe we have cut that down to 2 or 3 and the others days strength building. When I was in high school wrestling I remember hearing one of the coaches say: “If you wanna be good at Running… then Run, If you wanna be good at Lifting… then Lift, If you wanna be good at wrestling… then wrestle.”
[/QUOTE]
There are a lot of guys who certainly do that.
I’m just as guilty as anyone. When I was younger I saw really fast improvements in strength and conditioning so I started focusing on barbell and kettlebell training. My martial arts training started taking a backseat.
It wasn’t until I noticed I was having a harder and harder time dealing with the lower ranks (during hard sparring sessions) at our dojo that I realized I needed to re-focus and start really working my primary martial arts skill set again.
So, I don’t think it is ever a good idea to trade skill work for strength training or conditioning.
Skill work (shadowboxing, heavybag, sparring) should be done as often as possible - daily would be ideal.
Strength training and conditioning are for when you have time - they are supplements.
But anyone can add on 5-10 min. on the end of a regular skill session for some conditioning drills (like burpees) and see some real improvement.
It may be harder to fit in a proper strength training session or two during the week for most people, though. But it isn’t impossible especially if you take a minimalist approach.
I go to a gym where they have a pretty big group of powerlifters. I do a moderate to heavy lifting regement myself, but I also have a lot of cardio and conditioning mixed in with my routines. I’m a pretty big guy, I flux. between 215 and 225. But standing next to some of these guys is like standing next to a bull.
Anyways, they know me from my bag work I do with my routine. One of the guys is a dedicated powerlifter and puts up ridiculous amounts of weight. One day he stopped and talked to me about doing the state police test and was telling me that he was pretty confident that he could do well. I asked if he did any cardio and he said not much. I said well, I know for certain they make you run a mile and 1/2 in a timed format and that he should probably get some running in. He kinda laughed and said that he didn’t think he needed it.
Well I talked with him a couple weeks later and he said he didn’t pass. I asked what part he failed on and he really didn’t say. I later learned that it was the run and that he didn’t even finish because he was sucking to much wind.
being big has it’s advantages but if you don’t have the gas tank to make it go then your sh!t outta luck.
I think that most everyone here is jumping to the conclusion that I am somehow removing strength training for skill training. Strength training is a key component in any MA.
What I am trying to say is: Have we (the modern CMA) lessened the amount Sparring / Fighting Drills etc in favor of getting bigger and stronger to compensate for our lack skill in fighting?
Some of us still use old school Lin Gung regimes, some use modern weights and stuff. I don’t think there any difference which way you do it.
I run a commercial CMA school and the modern person comes in 2 maybe 3 times a week. They do not spend any extra time on strength training or cardio or form work or anything. This may be why I think like I do because: No one wants to put the time in or schedule wise they can’t put the time in. My school we focus on some Lin Gung and some Cardio but mostly fighting / drills and self defense. There is just not enough time to put more Strength training in anywhere in thier schedule.
For me personally I do some type of Strength training / Fighting / Sparring / Form work everyday. Are there any schools out there that have good students who put the time and effort into training 5-6 days a week?
