Thanks for your comments, and thanks for the invitation, but I have no interest whatsoever in sport/competition application of Bruce Lee’s methods! There might be a few JKD guys out there who fight in various events, but those are probably JKD “concept” practitioners. Most of the Jun Fan/JKD guys that I know are interested strictly in self defense application of the art! I have a big guy training with me right now who is into the NHB stuff, and he competes, but he respects me for my self defense knowledge and ability, plus he appreciates the attributes developed in JF/JKD training. We have a simple understanding. When he comes to me, he is here for JF/JKD! He leaves the other stuff at the door when he enters!
“Facing is definitively an important part of the system.It does not means to be stupidly rigid but to have a structure that allows the delivery of techniques offensives and defensives. If we dont care about it,why not take up TKD or something !”
May I take it that in TKD we don’t care about the subject? :mad: :eek:
OK so we really don’t, we’re more concerned about being able to do damage to an opponent no matter where he is in relation to where we’re facing. At least that’s the theory.
What I really meaned in that post was : If someone in wing chun does not understand or like the way things should be done (in wing chun,you paranoïd!)…He should be looking in some art who is different (like TKD,my paranoïd friend!)I’ was not passing a jugement on TKD…(Are all TKD guys so paranoïd?)…I was only pointing a difference in stance and body structure philosophy between two different ways of “facing” an opponent.
I hope it clears things up between us my dear and paranoïd friend!
–b sure 2 mention the fact that jun fan took his fencing attributes from a european model … that model was destroyed by the spanish fencers who used non-linear footwork 4 entering …
set the record clear on jun fan’s philosophy while u r at it … plagiarized in whole from j. krisnmurti … beside a shi*tty & confused attitude just ? do u jkd people claim 2 b urs alone?
I’ve wondered why Lee used sport fencing and not the Spanish school style where the non-live hand was used to handle a cloak, parrying-dagger, another sword or even to grab the opponents wrist or blade. Of course this would mean being more square to the opponent so that both weapons could be deployed.
PS OJ. Aplology accepted, and I am NOT PARANOID. I have to go, I think they’re watching me.
i thought the fencing connection was sort of an association of opportunity. he did wing chun. his brother fenced. he noticed some parallels. badda bing…
I can appreciate what you’re trying to do, SifuLMDII, but as for myself, I would be very disappointed if I went to a website calling itself “Hardcore KungFu” and found only JKD there. The term implies a broad cross-section of Chinese Martial Arts, and to only have JKD implies very strongly that JKD is the only hardcore CMA, or ‘kungfu’ as we like to say in the west.
In other words, without meaning to, you’re putting down everything that is not JKD. The ommissions say “this is not hardcore, only JKD is hardcore”.
Just an observation from someone who does not practice JKD, but does practice hardcore kung-fu.
i thought the fencing connection was sort of an association of opportunity. he did wing chun. his brother fenced. he noticed some parallels. badda bing…
–jun fan took his lunge step entry footwork directly from foil fencing. his rule 4 front foot plant & strike is a good ex. he was wrong about most training needs … constantly over trained … his weight work out was a joke … movie myths live on
Well Prana sometimes I just slip up. Sadly for me, my well of smarts just ran dry, sadly for everyone else I found a whole web page dedicated to the saying of my favorite cartoon, Pinky and the Brain.
Brain: Pinky, Are you pondering what I’m pondering?
Pinky: I think so, Brain, but this time, you put the trousers on the chimp.
AND
Brain: Pinky, Are you pondering what I’m pondering?
P: I think so, but what if the chicken won’t wear the nylons?
makes sense. and i assume that the ‘connection’ he saw between fencing and wing chun had a lot to do with the centerline theory prevalent in both. while i’ve fenced a bit, i don’t know that much about it. but my impression is that competitive fencing is more focused on the centerline than some of the older schools of fencing might be. so drawing from foil might have made more sense to bruce lee than drawing from an older school.
as to bruce lee’s worth on the whole, i try to be realistic about it. i do believe that he made an undeniable impact. but i also agree wholeheartedly with you that his ideas were not new. you mentioned Krishnamurti in another post. certainly, bruce’s ideas were strongly shaped by that man. and by daoism. and various other sources. i think he was fairly open about this, but the nature of celebrity is that we gloss over things like that.
i don’t know. he was a man. in some ways, exceptional. in others, just as daft as the rest of us.
stuart b.
p.s. no disrespect to lamar or his style, but i’ve always been very impressed with dan inosanto myself.
i assume that the ‘connection’ he saw between fencing and wing chun had a lot to do with the centerline theory prevalent in both.
–sectioning the body into quadrants is old as dirt … found almost everywhere
while i’ve fenced a bit, i don’t know that much about it. but my impression is that competitive fencing is more focused on the centerline than some of the older schools of fencing might be.
–u could be right … jl tl is complete as is … no need to look around
so drawing from foil might have made more sense to bruce lee than drawing from an older school.
–only his ghost knows 4 sure
as to bruce lee’s worth on the whole, i try to be realistic about it. i do believe that he made an undeniable impact.
–no doubt
but i also agree wholeheartedly with you that his ideas were not new.
–it’s not the lack of novelty … most of his training stuff was wrong
Well SifuLMDII, it looke like you have a good attitude towards JKD, thats good. I am a WC paractitioner myself but have no problem acknowledging JKD as a martial art that is effective, and like all arts it is only as effective as the person who is using it. Some would say that JKD is not a real style because it has many concepts from many other arts, or a few anyway, but most arts do, and that is how most arts get started. Someone becomes disenchanted or sees something that can be improved upon, in thier opinion, and makes some changes. Some do it for greed, or jealousy or what have you.
I believe that Bruce Lees intentions were pure, he was looking for a “better” way to fight, and for him, he may have found that. I would however like to point out two things that many people skim over, the fact that Bruce Lee did have some intensive martial arts training with some pretty good instructors! He also spent most of his life studying and trying to understand the martial arts and fighting, and I dont mean going to every practice, doing some stuff on the weekends and reading on his lunch hour, I mean it became his life. When he decided to design his own way of fighting, or a better word would be adapt, he had a pretty good understanding and a pretty good background in it already, and was increasing that knowledge daily. I admire him for his drive and his passion. I stick with WC because I see no holes, but can see JKD has its own merits and its own weaknesses.
The other thing many people sort of forget about styles of martial arts are that most martial arts are supposed to evolve and be adapted by each and every user. My sifu said to me when I asked him about proper WC stance, that all of our stances,a lthough we drive towards the same goals, will look different, because we are built differently, we have different things that afect the way we do our stance. This is the essence of any style. You take what you learn and you adapt it to your body. If I am not so fast, I should learn to stick to shorter range strikes, If I have fast legs, why not use them?
I believe that part of what Mr Lee was trying to get at with JKD was this ideal, that whatever style you practice, you need to at some point make it your own. This is what I believe gives rise to rivalry, especially within styles. Big and tall learns that if he uses his reach a certain way, it works really well for him so he adapts. When he starts to teach, he teaches it the way it works for him, doing things a tad differently than all the other guys, some people see this as a problem. I see classical instruction as the way to a foundation, sort of like, all houses are built the same way, with similar materials, but then you decorate it and fill it the way you want it to look. In a way that is much more comfortable for you.
eskrima doesn’t focus on the centerline that way though, for example. i think there is a strong similarity in wing chun and fencing thought. and perhaps, as you suggest, the thoughts of a lot of other schools.
that’s one way in which i do believe bruce should be acknowledged. there were common themes running through a lot of arts. and he was instrumental in making us look at that idea (not for the first time, mind you) at a time when many westerners may have been concentrating more on the differences between styles. getting wrapped up in the pomp and circumstance rather than the underlying truth.
not the first to think of it. certainly not the last. but instrumental, all the same. and who’s to say to what degree many of us would have done so had he not come along. good chance we would have. good chance we wouldn’t. depends on the people involved, i suppose.
as for his practice being flat out wrong, i’m not touching that. i don’t believe it. but since i wasn’t there, i’m not going to speculate. enough to say that, for the most part, i agree with you. just not on that particular count.
The name of the web site is Hardcore Jeet Kune Do, not “Hardcore Kung Fu”! If you were lead to believe otherwise, I’m sorry! I have trained in martial arts for thirty-four years of my life, and believe me, I certainly know that there is “hardcore” training in every martial art! It’s just that this site will be entirely dedicated to Bruce Lee’s teaching, training and fighting methods, therefore Hardcore Jeet Kune Do! OK?
