Why not many people use what they have learnt in a fight or in tournments

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Shaolin Kung Fu
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Thank for all those who replied to my question.

I have found two web sites where the practitioners used traditional kung fu in their sparring sessions. Please check out the video clips, questions and answers.

http://www.wongkk.com/index.html

  • Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit explained in great details why people cannot used kung fu in a fight.

http://members.aol.com/martyeisen/mantis/pmwebpage.html

  • Master Gin Foon Mark’s praying mantis kung fu

I too have fought like a human punching bag and kick boxer before I started my martial arts training. This is why I am very surprised that after 2 years of training - 2 hours per day and 7 days a week. I am still behaving like a human punching bag in sparring matchs.

Hitman

22

Second link don’t wprk.

The sad part of your question was brought home a few weeks ago. The majority of you fellow dragons faild rank test. One of my Sifu was very upset by this, because every one he judged did not even attempt to spar properly, but rather attempted to beat thier opponent down. The point of sparring is not to kill the other guy, it is to practice the technique in a practical format. :frowning: I can’t count the number of times I have come up against this…

We were working on rudementry staff sparring last Thursday. No one was interested in learning how to get into the flow of how to spar; they wanted to demonstrate how well they could blow through someone else’s parry or block. Lots of busted knuckles and bad tempers, very little productive training.:frowning:

23

Dear Becca,

            Go to google and type:

Bruce Lee and praying mantis

select

A master Mark’s praying mantis kung fu

You will find the video clips of Master Mark sparring with other martial artist

The answer to your question why people cannot apply their martial arts in a fight:

  1. Some teachers have to water down their training methods inorder to attract enough students to survive. Learning the real stuff are boring and time consuming. Many people do not make the sacrific and devote enough time to learn it.

  2. Most students wanted to do intensive exercises only, but will not like to spend the time to learn it properly. However, they would like to call themselves martial arts experts, even though their standard are poor. This also happen in fencing as well. They live in a world of fast food.

  3. Many teachers were not taught properly, before they started teaching. This is why we got so many bad students around.

4 I have been sparring with my training partner and correcting our mistakes every twenty seconds. We did the same move over and over again, until I am happy that we can defend ourselves and able to hit each other, without getting hit. After 3 months we are no longer sparring like human punching bags. However, this process is time consume, which should be learnt from a school. If I have to figure out on my own why to apply my techniques. This is totally defeated the object of learning from a school.

  1. It is up to the individul what they want from they martial arts training. You cannot force people to train if they do not want in the first place.

Hitman

24

Originally posted by Becca
[B]Second link don’t wprk.

The sad part of your question was brought home a few weeks ago. The majority of you fellow dragons faild rank test. One of my Sifu was very upset by this, because every one he judged did not even attempt to spar properly, but rather attempted to beat thier opponent down. The point of sparring is not to kill the other guy, it is to practice the technique in a practical format. :frowning: I can’t count the number of times I have come up against this…

We were working on rudementry staff sparring last Thursday. No one was interested in learning how to get into the flow of how to spar; they wanted to demonstrate how well they could blow through someone else’s parry or block. Lots of busted knuckles and bad tempers, very little productive training.:frowning: [/B]

Becca when i went to Wong2004. that is all i seemed to see in the sparring macth. it seems the people jsut wanted to pummel each other and not use techniques. i tried using techniques but once i learned my opponent was out to get me, i went out to get him.

25

will beats skill quite often. Innate talent for fighting will often triumph over technically trained.

Many martial artists can’t apply, because many martial artists aren’t in it for the fight.

To fight requires “spirit” and skill. You can’t instill spirit, you can only transmit knowledge which may or may not manifest as skill and internalized knowledge.

there are a great many non-traditional martial artists who are unable to fight as well. Luckily for them, most times they are placed into a contest with an equally unqualified fighter and that’s when you get to see a brawl instead of sweet science.

as for application, I think it behooves any instructor to show at least one application for every single move within a form. After that, the extrapolation process needs to come from the student and more apps will be found for the same move.

Innate abilty is a treasure for a teacher. It means quicker response and understanding more often than not.

Also consider that many people entering into gwoons and dojos go there because they do not know anything about defending themselves or fighting sportively. also, as often, these same people when presented with the reality of the taste of their own blood in their mouths and their bells ringing from a solid hook to the head will deny themselves the moving forward required to get better. this is weakness that was always present in the person and they should perhaps move on to some other activity or persevere and get on with it.

The important lesson about pain that is not mortally or fatally wounding is that it will pass. If you see beyond to the result, you will fare better in the long run.

26

I think that, in regards to applying technique, and or style into your sparring matches, it is partially a responibility of the teacher to make sure each student understands the application for specific movements. However, I also believe, that in large part it is the students responsibility to apply what they have learned to each situation that they are delt. To put to much emphasis on the teaching, would imply a large dependency on your teacher. We are in the martial business, which of course implies fighting. This is exactly what must be done. Fight yourself, fight the desire to flail wildly into combat. Fight the disire to become emotional and most of all, fight your opponents attempts to make you conform to thier way of fighting. It is the responsibility of the practitioner to decide whether they want to use thier form or style, or whether they want to break it down and street fight. I say to each his own. If using your style means you will suffer defeat and encure pain upon yourself, then this is the road you must travel in order to reach your goal. To learn martial arts, is to learn to except pain and humility. Sometimes defeat can be our greatest teacher.

27

I went to the web sites and watched the videos.

I have run across these guys before in these forums.

What they call sparring we call drills with cooperating oponents.

I have been on their boards and they claim that they have instructors that could win at UFC. (Thats my favorite, never fought anyone, but know they posess enough skills to defeat them)

When I first started in the arts padded gloves were not used in tournaments, so there was not a lot of contact. Deadly strikes were believed because you coulnt practice full speed and power.

take those same people and put gloves on them, see if the techniques are as clean.

28

Dear Dark Knight,

I am not interested in a pointless debat with you about those websites.

However, I would be very grateful if you and other readers to consider my comments:

I have read all the corresponds, answer and questions made by the partitioners in that school. None of them have made any claim that they could win a UFC. What Grandmaster Wong did was to point out the weakness in each technique used by the competitors in UFC and other styles. He also pointed out clearly that in order to make his counters work against those techniques, you have to have the skill and the determination to use them first, otherwise his counters are worthless!

After correcting myself, I too fight like those people in the video clips. However, my skill is very poor compared to them. My training partner and me wore only googles to protect our eyes. No other protective clothings, gloves were wore. We sparred at a moderate speed with light contact only. All our attacks and defence are totally un-planned.

We both do finger strikes to the eyes, punches to the throat, body and nose. Elbows to the head, neck. Kicks to the groin and legs. All our attacks are designed to hit the intended targets. When we first started sparring we got hit at least thirty time a day per person. Nowday we only got hit six or seven times a day. What save us from getting serious hurt is our skills and trusting each other to stop the attack at the surface of the skin. There were times when I could not stop my attacks in time. I punched my partner’s throat and he had to take several minutes of rest, in order to recover. I too got my nose and throat punched several times, because I made several mistakes and they hurt! Fortunately, so far we had not recieved any serious injuries.

We do not spar at full speed is because we do not want get hurt or kill each other in our training session.

I can assure you that I can see skills in those practitioners, even if the video clips consist of drills only. You can still learn something from them.

Would you honestly believed that someone can be so stupid and pay Grandmaster Wong $1500 per person for 3 days of seminar, if he do have enough skill to back up his claim. After reading some of his articles and one of his books about martial artist, I believed he is a very knowledgeable teacher.

Hitman

29

people don’t use what they learn when they fight in tournaments because what they learn is ineffective and useless, and would more than likely get them killed or laughed at if they tried using it.

that is all.

30

The bottom line is the tech never looks like the form. Nor should it. The form trains a tech and some physical attibute at the same time. Most people fail to recognize this. That is why when some people fight it doesn’t “look” like kung fu form.

It also goes back to the “most sifu’s, shouldn’t be sifu” theory.

31

Would you honestly believed that someone can be so stupid and pay Grandmaster Wong $1500 per person for 3 days of seminar, if he do have enough skill to back up his claim.

What do you think you can learn in three days. Is it stupid? Thats all subjective.
I have been to seminars with gene Labelle and I can say that in one day you will gain an incredible amount of information that will make your fighting ability jump, and it will cost yuo less than $100.00.
George Dillman teaches pressure point KO’s, when you go to his seminars you leave capable of doing them, less than $100.00

Would I pay $1500? Maybe

I am not interested in a pointless debat with you about those websites.

You posted them as examples, slow drills have value for developing form, runners do them also. But that is not sparring. If you spar like that any of my students with 4 months experience is going to take you down.

If you feel that my comments are pointless, dont post it and ask questions.

None of them have made any claim that they could win a UFC.

Months ago I was on line on their board, They claim that one instructor in the north eastern area (I forget his name and location) could win at UFC.

What Grandmaster Wong did was to point out the weakness in each technique used by the competitors in UFC and other styles. He also pointed out clearly that in order to make his counters work against those techniques, you have to have the skill and the determination to use them first, otherwise his counters are worthless!

If he has the counters and knows the weaknesses he should show up at one. It would be a quick easy couple hundred thousand dollars for stopping off at a tournament on the way home.

I expect the usual answer “We have nothing to prove”

However, my skill is very poor compared to them.

Fight more often and watch out for sweeps.

After reading some of his articles and one of his books about martial artist, I believed he is a very knowledgeable teacher.

I have no dought.

I have met many talented and knowledgable martial artist. When you look at defining fighting there are many levels. The typical street fighter has no training and is just a jerk. It does not take a lot of skill to beat them, mostly the power to make it work and the desire to be the guy standing.

The biggest problem TMA suffer from is it lacks realistic training. Finding someone who is not going to let you work your techniques by resisting you and building up to a level that includes good contact, grabs, takedowns…

Until the 1980’s most styles suffered from this. Once good padding was introduced then training could become more realistic. Before then people belived in strikes that were too deadly to try on each other. I know people today that have schools they go to that tell them they do not spar because what they do is too deadly.

If your instructor tells you this, you need a new instructor.

Its a simple concept…Train as you fight.

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I dont know about anyone else here, but I personally would be thrilled to see, at any competition, an event that requires you to fight in form. This of course would be a somewhat tricky rating system. TKO would naturally win, but there would need to be deductions for slop and so forth. A quick demonstration of what form you will be fighting with for each fighter. Then the bout. It would not be to find out who would win in a street style fight, it would however determine who, out of the two fighters has a better developed knowledge of their style. But of course this is just one mans opinion.

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Would you honestly believed that someone can be so stupid and pay Grandmaster Wong $1500 per person for 3 days of seminar, if he do have enough skill to back up his claim.

Wouldn’t be the first time, and won’t be the last time. People waste massive amounts of money on phoney baloney teachers all the time. Ever heard of Temple Kungfu, Chung Moo Do, or Yellow Bamboo? A local guy used to make big bucks off of people with super expensive seminars and private lessons.

I dont know about anyone else here, but I personally would be thrilled to see, at any competition, an event that requires you to fight in form. This of course would be a somewhat tricky rating system. TKO would naturally win, but there would need to be deductions for slop and so forth. A quick demonstration of what form you will be fighting with for each fighter. Then the bout. It would not be to find out who would win in a street style fight, it would however determine who, out of the two fighters has a better developed knowledge of their style. But of course this is just one mans opinion.

I think something like that could only work in a competition among people from a single style. Blacktaoist and Maoshan have been running an anual Bagua competition that has sparring kindof like that. A mixed style competition would be too much of a pain to get quality judging in that format, and would handicap a lot of people.

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Originally posted by Shaolinlueb
Becca when i went to Wong2004. that is all i seemed to see in the sparring macth. it seems the people jsut wanted to pummel each other and not use techniques. i tried using techniques but once i learned my opponent was out to get me, i went out to get him.

I can understand why one might do this when sparring a stranger. But this was rank test!!! I was not able to rank test this time around, but I have seen it. The sparring portion of the test is ment for the student to demonstrate thier ability to use the techniques they have aquired. It isn’t a toury-style match, and no one should be worried about having to deal with anything more agressive than someone with poor control. If you can’t use the technique in this controlled of a situation, then when would you? And if you aren’t interested in learning how to use it, then why waste your time. Or the time of your classmates whoare trying to learn the system the right way?:confused:

P.S. I have seen fighters who could, and do, use their art the way it was designed to be used. I have seen my Sifus spar. I know that one can spar at 100% and still have the technique visable. May not be your experience, but it is mine…:rolleyes:

35

Hitman, the drills are not useless, boxers do something similar, gapplers also. But its not sparring. Fighting doesnt look that clean, we work on techniques and draw from them when the time comes.

Look at how Cung Le fights in Sanshou. That is full contact. I realize its a sport with rules, but realfighting in the street is going to have the same principles.

When you do the martial arts you have to look at what it is that you want fom it. Some people will never fight and dont care about the fighting aspect, they get into the depths of the art and what it offers, some do it for fitness.

If your goal is to fight I would reccomend going to the Straight Blast Gym ( www.straightblastgym.com ) and picking up their Funtional JKD tapes. They have one concern, performance.

If it an interest in an art and all it has to offer, then look for that journey.

But keep an open mind, everything is not as it appears.

36

Hitman, the drills are not useless, boxers do something similar, gapplers also. But its not sparring. Fighting doesnt look that clean, we work on techniques and draw from them when the time comes.

Look at how Cung Le fights in Sanshou. That is full contact. I realize its a sport with rules, but realfighting in the street is going to have the same principles.

When you do the martial arts you have to look at what it is that you want fom it. Some people will never fight and dont care about the fighting aspect, they get into the depths of the art and what it offers, some do it for fitness.

If your goal is to fight I would reccomend going to the Straight Blast Gym ( www.straightblastgym.com ) and picking up their Funtional JKD tapes. They have one concern, performance.

If it an interest in an art and all it has to offer, then look for that journey.

But keep an open mind, everything is not as it appears.

37

i dont know about this topic sometimes. if you use what you leanr in calss, you can seriously injure your opponent, unless all you do is tournament sparring. kung fu techniques can hurt people when applied right. sparring is more like a kickboxing match to me.

38

Sparring should be part of your training just like forms, techniques, pad drills…

It teaches you timing and how to reach to someone who is moving and resisting.

By training in all of the you use it together when the times comes.

When we spar we do trows, take downs and grappling not just the stand up striking. This allows you to get use to reacting to a grab or a followup after a takedown on a live target.

There are times that you spar on just stand up or work on just grappling, but you need to combine them to keep those skills sharp.

39

Originally posted by Dark Knight
[B]Sparring should be part of your training just like forms, techniques, pad drills…

It teaches you timing and how to reach to someone who is moving and resisting.

By training in all of the you use it together when the times comes.

When we spar we do trows, take downs and grappling not just the stand up striking. This allows you to get use to reacting to a grab or a followup after a takedown on a live target.

There are times that you spar on just stand up or work on just grappling, but you need to combine them to keep those skills sharp. [/B]

i agree, but in tournament sparring i rarely see you being able to sue things other then basic punch (not to front of head) and kicks. cant swep back foot, cant grab, cant use takedowns.

you have to train to keep them sharp but it takes lot of practice. that is another reason people jsut result in mindless rumbling.

40

It depends on the tournaments on sweeps and take downs.

But I like the social aspect of them, I judge, check out the hotties, get together with other friends.

Thats the biggest part of it for me. (Especially the hotties)