Why not many people use what they have learnt in a fight or in tournments

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Shaolin Kung Fu
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Dear all,
Is it possible for any one to tell me why there are so many martial artists out there, who cannot use what they have learnt in a fight or in tournments?
I am referring to them applying their techniques in a fight and not about whether they can or cannot win a fight. When I went to visit other martial arts schools or in tournments, all I can see were students and instructors sparring with each other like human punching bags or kick boxers. They could not apply what they have learnt for the past several years.
However, they could perform their techniques perfectly in a co-operative situations. Why is this?

  1. No one expect tennis players or coaches to enter themselves in tournments, if they cannot hit a ball.
    No tennis players will enter themselves into an ice hockey match wearing tennis outfit OR cannot play ice hockey. They do not want to make fools of themselves by not being able to play the game. They learnt how to play the game very well first, before entering themselves into tournments.
    However, this is exact what had happened to many of the tournments I have seen.

  2. No traditional teachers in the past would let his/her students open their own schools, if they cannot use what they have learnt to defence themselves. They did not want to disgrace themselves and their own schools. However, today many teachers (including experience fighters) do not seem to care about their own and their ancestors’ reputations.

  3. The quality of the teacher is judged by the qualities of his/her students. If the students cannot applied what they have learnt in a fight, then the teacher is bad. It does not matter if he/ her is the current undefeated world champion. This is because he/she cannot pass on the skill to the students. It is the teaching methods being taught that I am questioning and not whether both the teacher or student can fight.

I am very sad and disappointed to said that all I can only see performers, human punching bags and kick boxers competitors in tournments, but not martial artists who can use their skills (except judo players, wrestler, boxers, kick boxers , Thai boxers, etc). If this trend is allow to continue, then no wonder people will look down at martial artists and thinking it is a waste of time.

Thank you
Hitman

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Well, because most teachers show you a long form and then say “Now use it sparring” without showing you how. Heck, a lot of teachers don’t even teach the form applications. They expect the student to just figure it out on their own. To use the techniques, you have to extract them from the forms, drill them live or on pads/bags, and then use them in a free sparring format. You can’t go directly from memorizing a form to using the technqiues effectivley. It doesn’t work that way. There are steps in between that a lot of teachers neglect.

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MK has commited the correct to memory, broken it down to its essential principles, drilled it against a resisting opponent, and applied it on the street.

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that is why he is the masterkiller.

also this day of age. people want to learn to be bad ass right away. you dont do that by learning “silly” techniques from “silly” forms. i see tournaments and its just brawls its so disapointing.
but master killer hit it on the dot.

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Learn Wing Chun

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So many people say this…

And so many people never fight in tournaments. Or anywhere, for that matter. Once you get in some real fights, you realize how hard it is to apply some of the techniques based on reaction skills. Now this doesn’t mean that those moves are unapplicable, it just means that you might not be able to apply them at the right moment. You have to seize that moment. But will you see it? It’s a perceptual thing and your perceptions altar dramatically when in the "war’ zone.

While tournaments are a far cry from real fights, it’s about as close as you can get safely. For everyone, there is a first time. Would you prefer that first time be on the street or at a tournament where all you have to lose is ego? Anyone who steps in the ring is exhibiting a speck of bravery - I know many practitioners who have never done that then comment on ‘how bad’ everyone looks. Get out there and show us. Show us those traditional moves in the ring. You see them occasionally in good fights, so it can be done. And we love those fighters who show us some technique; they are always favored by the crowd.

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Could it possibly be that many martial arts do not deal with discussing/teaching strategies for bridging the gaps correctly as to be able to make the techniques work? What angles work best when. What approaches to using techniques to either close or maintain space between you and the opponent?

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Originally posted by ninja
Learn Wing Chun

because…

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three words -

improper training.

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SevenStar,

That’s Two Words you wrote there. :wink:

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Grados Street Combat

Watch his hands fly!

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Originally posted by Da_Moose
Could it possibly be that many martial arts do not deal with discussing/teaching strategies for bridging the gaps correctly as to be able to make the techniques work? What angles work best when. What approaches to using techniques to either close or maintain space between you and the opponent?

They are addressed in MA.

The student is only as good as the teacher. We learn all that in my school. The curriculum is complete, I think. SiGung works hard and it is amazing all the stuff he knows. He makes sure that we know what we are doing and do it correctly. It is a martial art, not a dance. I do not want to be Lord of the Dance, I want to be Lord of not getting beaten to a Bloody Pulp. Also the health benefits are nice :wink:

Also, some people are just good natural fighters, in my opinion. Just like anything, some people can apply what they learn better than others and more quickly.

But I believe that it all comes down to the teacher.

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for the general image of martial arts and martial artists receiving respect… one of the worst things to happen is the year black belts (where people can get a black belt/sash/whatever in a year), and think they learned everything.

I remember in high school that I saw a karate black belt get his butt kicked so fast it wasn’t even funny.

If only all schools stuck to being true to their arts, and not making it all about the money and insulting the arts, I think the general American public, at least, would have a better outlook on martial arts.

Last I checked, there was not a ‘Curl up into the fetal position and blink a 1000 times’ or ‘Freeze up like a big Oak Tree’ move in any martial art. In a fight, even if you never have taken a ma class ever, you know you should just react.

Many people think, that if a punch comes and are not skilled fighters something like ‘oh, i will just do <insert fancy move>… no problem’. There is a difference between knowing what to do, and actually doing it and not thinking like a maniac and responding like a 3rd grader being drug to detention with arms flying around like you are trying to take off (last I checked it was a warm up exercise, not an ancient Chinese secret).

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Originally posted by unixfudotnet

If only all schools stuck to being true to their arts, and not making it all about the money and insulting the arts, I think the general American public, at least, would have a better outlook on martial arts.

I don’t think it’s as cut and dry as that. Today, you still have traditional systems that are quite “true to their arts”, yet they don’t spar. you have systems that are “true to their arts”, yet most of their time is spent training forms. lack of fighting ability in schools in not only due to the greed of some teachers.

Last I checked, there was not a ‘Curl up into the fetal position and blink a 1000 times’ or ‘Freeze up like a big Oak Tree’ move in any martial art. In a fight, even if you never have taken a ma class ever, you know you should just react.

here’s where the difference between theory and reality come in. In theory, yeah, it seems common sense to react. In reality, when adrenaline rushes, you resort to two options - fight or flight. when you aren’t conditioned to fight, yet you have chosen fight mode, you will freeze. once the body’s heartbeat raises above a certain rate and adrenaline is rushing, you tend to forget everything you’ve learned, unless it’s firmly ingrained. Some people have a “killer instinct” and automatically respond in fight mode. Not everybody does.

In addition, MA training is generally counterproductive to that response. you are taught to only use your skills for self defense, you are taught to always be kind, respectful and humble. you are taught not to fight unless you absolutely have to. That peaceful frame of mind sticks with you. Who has the advantage in a fight - the street fighter with no remorse at all for his opponent, or the peaceful, trained MA who doesn’t want to fight anyway?

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i tend to think traditional martial arts along the same lines of traditional boxing. it seems people fought a little different then. i always see articles on abreknuckle boxing and they are standing straight up hands out, good posture, different from todays boxing. think same could be said for martial arts. different style?

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In addition, MA training is generally counterproductive to that response. you are taught to only use your skills for self defense, you are taught to always be kind, respectful and humble. you are taught not to fight unless you absolutely have to. That peaceful frame of mind sticks with you. Who has the advantage in a fight - the street fighter with no remorse at all for his opponent, or the peaceful, trained MA who doesn’t want to fight anyway?

I’ve been burned by this.

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Is the system really complete if you do not even know how to fight?

It is a martial art, defending yourself and knowing how to use what you learned and have been practicing for years is core to what martial arts are.

I realize that in some schools, people just do not show up for sparring class. Hey, it happens. shrug

But, I do not see how one could reach any high level, or even a moderate level without even knowing how to be comfortable in a fight and doing what you have to do.

Otherwise, you are only learning a really cool dance with weapons and such.

Historical wise, did monks of old that learned and developed these systems just do them and hope for the best in battle, or did they prepare themselves for battle, so when it came, they would be comfortable in the setting and ready, and know how they would react and confident of what is to come and how to just take care of business.

I think many people lose focus that it is a martial art. Breaking another person is just the outcome that happens in martial applications. You can be kind all you want, but you have to develop that frame of mind to do what you have to do in battle.

The other guy is intent on harming you and doing a good job of it, people need to realize this, and know that they do not want this to happen, and all they are doing is stopping it. I view it as just stopping danger, stopping evil, there is no mercy for evil and those trying to destroy you.

People need this frame of mind. I do not even understand why this is even an issue here. Martial is in the term Martial art, you are failing in your martial art if you are not able to use what you learn. It is like taking school for years to learn how to be a master plumber, and when the time comes for you to fix a plumbing problem, you just yell and bang on the pipes like a caveman.

What is the point of learning and practicing for years if when the time comes, you throw it all out the window and it is like you are in gradeschool again fighting over the good swing on the playground.

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destroying life and what is beautiful in this world will always be something that is bad, and i do not want to do it at all. yet, when someone is intent on destroying you, you have to stop what is going on. there is a difference between stopping the attack, and stopping the attack and totally destroying the target.

comparing street fighters and ma is kinda moot when at the time of the fight is who attacks how and who stops attacks, etc. the frame of mind for both that you are comparing is the same, though the intention may be very different.

some people need to just have their reality shaken when they are trying to attack you, like it isn’t going to be easy, and it is going to hurt.

like all martial arts common theme, only apply what is needed.

destroying life and what is beautiful has no place in martial arts, but stopping an attacker with only what is needed is another. there is a difference, and you can have that, yet still be effective in fighting. it helps to be comfortable, then it is much easier to relax (which you will need to do), and in this situation, you can develop confidence that is not superficial.

just simply stop the attack, stop the danger. no not destroy it, just simply stop it. the reality of it is that it may be a block and push or breaking multiple joints/bones to physically stop the attack.

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Originally posted by unixfudotnet
Is the system really complete if you do not even know how to fight?

depends on whom you ask. Back during the pre meiji and tokugawa periods in japan, most of the jujutsu schools did not spar. The reason was that they trained bone breaking, killing, etc. - things that they could not practice safely in training. Were these koryu systems MA? Sure they were - it was used in battle. However, after the samurai had disbanded and there was no need for the koryu systems, the various do, such as judo came about. judo removed many of jujutsu’s unsafe techniques and instituted sparring. In contests between judo and jujutsu, judo cleaned house…

It is a martial art, defending yourself and knowing how to use what you learned and have been practicing for years is core to what martial arts are.

yes, but as many people say, sparring is not the same as fighting. some systems only do drills and such.

I realize that in some schools, people just do not show up for sparring class. Hey, it happens. shrug

Historical wise, did monks of old that learned and developed these systems just do them and hope for the best in battle, or did they prepare themselves for battle, so when it came, they would be comfortable in the setting and ready, and know how they would react and confident of what is to come and how to just take care of business.

dunno. My guess, however, is that they did various drills and two man forms. Also, they may have fought more often, eliminating the need for sparring. Same with the old jj guys. In thailand, thai boxers don’t spar, they do roadwork, bagwork, pad drills, etc. BUT, they fight ALOT. Some fight as often as once per week. This negates the need for them to spar. And actually, it hinders them, because if they get hurt while sparring, they can’t fight.

People need this frame of mind. I do not even understand why this is even an issue here. Martial is in the term Martial art, you are failing in your martial art if you are not able to use what you learn. It is like taking school for years to learn how to be a master plumber, and when the time comes for you to fix a plumbing problem, you just yell and bang on the pipes like a caveman.

that actually happens all the time. Think about your own field - how many companies want to hire a green, college grad with no working experience? Why? The era of the MCSE showed us that being certified doesn’t mean you know what you’re doing…

MA is the same way - training is doesn’t guarantee you’ll gain the mindset required to survive in a fight. MA isn’t a guarantee, it’s merely an equalizer.

What is the point of learning and practicing for years if when the time comes, you throw it all out the window and it is like you are in gradeschool again fighting over the good swing on the playground.

once again, depends on whom you ask.

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Originally posted by unixfudotnet

comparing street fighters and ma is kinda moot when at the time of the fight is who attacks how and who stops attacks, etc. the frame of mind for both that you are comparing is the same, though the intention may be very different.

that’s just it - the frame of mind is NOT the same.