Seriously.
All this talk of internal this, internal that.
So wheres the proof?
1.) Anyone got any legitimate videos?
2.) And what the hell is internal power, anyway?
3.) Does it give you punching power?
Does it allow you to absorb a punch?
4.) How is it any different from what the human body can normally do, with training?
5.) Anyone ever use it in any legitimate sporting competition? Boxing? MMA? Football? Baseball? ANYTHING?
So nows the time all you DBZ fanatics, put up or shut up
[QUOTE=AdrianK;924945]Seriously.
All this talk of internal this, internal that.
So wheres the proof?
1.) Anyone got any legitimate videos?
2.) And what the hell is internal power, anyway?
3.) Does it give you punching power?
Does it allow you to absorb a punch?
4.) How is it any different from what the human body can normally do, with training?
5.) Anyone ever use it in any legitimate sporting competition? Boxing? MMA? Football? Baseball? ANYTHING?
So nows the time all you DBZ fanatics, put up or shut up[/QUOTE]
http://www.coilingdragon.com/ironvest.html
Not particularly convincing.
Harry Houdini could do better than that (most of the time, anyway) and he wasn’t an internal master.
In many cases, when TCMAists speak of internals, they are not speaking of ch’i, but of structural alignments, and relaxed, unified whole body power, rather than relying on tenseness and brute strength. Nothing mysterious-unless you haven’t been exposed to this-especially when it is devloped to a high skill level.
Many have not. It’s not DBZ, it’s proper practice under qualified instructors.
[QUOTE=anerlich;924970]Not particularly convincing.
Harry Houdini could do better than that (most of the time, anyway) and he wasn’t an internal master.[/QUOTE]
And how would you know about Harry Houdini and what he could or could not demonstrate? were you there? do you have video?
the ability to withstand and recover is called internal strength.
if you get hit in the guts and immediately go loose in the bowels and weak in the knees, it’s clear you lack internal strength.
If you think of it in terms of overall body development, core strength and ability to use dynamic tension, anywhere, on demand and couple that with increased durability, stamina and core strength, then maybe that’s all you need is terminology that you can understand.
When people grind it all down to language issues of english versus translated english and cryptic transmission versus technical transmission in mother tongue, then it is obvious that stuff will get lost in translation.
To get angry about it is simply immaturity. seriously, making demands of people in regards to a subject you are uneducated on is the hallmark of churls. lol
try approaching with a modicum of decency and courtesy and maybe, just maybe someone might feel inclined to impart with something.
Ultimately, a surly attitude will get you nothing but rejected though. Just sayin… 
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;924982]And how would you know about Harry Houdini and what he could or could not demonstrate? were you there? do you have video?
the ability to withstand and recover is called internal strength.
if you get hit in the guts and immediately go loose in the bowels and weak in the knees, it’s clear you lack internal strength.
If you think of it in terms of overall body development, core strength and ability to use dynamic tension, anywhere, on demand and couple that with increased durability, stamina and core strength, then maybe that’s all you need is terminology that you can understand.
When people grind it all down to language issues of english versus translated english and cryptic transmission versus technical transmission in mother tongue, then it is obvious that stuff will get lost in translation.
To get angry about it is simply immaturity. seriously, making demands of people in regards to a subject you are uneducated on is the hallmark of churls. lol
try approaching with a modicum of decency and courtesy and maybe, just maybe someone might feel inclined to impart with something.
Ultimately, a surly attitude will get you nothing but rejected though. Just sayin… :)[/QUOTE]
Great post except for the fact that you could have used the “knucklehead” reference a couple of times and with good justification.
It is amazing how so many people who claim a zillion years of experience in MA or “kung fu” can make ignorant posts. I am talking about Anerleich and not you.
All these guys need to do is to research and “empty their glass” a little. There is plenty of information out there even if it won’t include the higher and the not so visible training (secret) methodology. However, all they do is look with a “I know everything there is to know, hence I have made up my mind”, mindset.
The fault lies with pompousness of many people combined with the incomplete way that kung fu is taught in over 95 of the kwoons out there.
[QUOTE=TenTigers;924978]In many cases, when TCMAists speak of internals, they are not speaking of ch’i, but of structural alignments, and relaxed, unified whole body power, rather than relying on tenseness and brute strength.[/quote]
Excellent point!
It is amazing how when the internals are mentioned many modern “kung fu-ists” start visualising chi balls and magic powers and so on. The various ways of unifying the body and their links/references to the internals of TCMA, seem to be beyond the scope of understanding of many self proclaimed “experts” in this forum.
Of course, why should they worry? After all they know BJJ.
Unfortunately with the kung fu scene being what it is most of these guys are not going to be exposed to this type of training. On second thoughts perhaps that is not such a bad thing when one considers the saying that goes something like, “When the student is ready, the teacher will appear”.
When I read some of the contributions here I can put my hand on my heart and say that there aren’t that many people that are “ready” in this forum.
The relevant truth,“How can one find, if one does not search”, applies here. Most of these people seem to be on a different wave length to what is required in even starting the higher level TCMA methodology.
That easier said than done when considering that many of the ignorant comments on the subject of traditional kung fu, including the internals, come from people who claim to be instructors themselves…lol,lol,lol.
Lets hope that things change.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;924982]And how would you know about Harry Houdini and what he could or could not demonstrate? were you there? do you have video?
the ability to withstand and recover is called internal strength.
if you get hit in the guts and immediately go loose in the bowels and weak in the knees, it’s clear you lack internal strength.
If you think of it in terms of overall body development, core strength and ability to use dynamic tension, anywhere, on demand and couple that with increased durability, stamina and core strength, then maybe that’s all you need is terminology that you can understand.
When people grind it all down to language issues of english versus translated english and cryptic transmission versus technical transmission in mother tongue, then it is obvious that stuff will get lost in translation.
To get angry about it is simply immaturity. seriously, making demands of people in regards to a subject you are uneducated on is the hallmark of churls. lol
try approaching with a modicum of decency and courtesy and maybe, just maybe someone might feel inclined to impart with something.
Ultimately, a surly attitude will get you nothing but rejected though. Just sayin… :)[/QUOTE]
Great post!
What is the holistic view of WCK in 1850’s?
The following are the factual sample of internal, external, Hard, soft, Yin, and Yang training in SLT/SNT and where were the “technology” evolve from.
These stuffs are a few level deeper then today’s general understanding on TCMA. In fact most so called sifu , sigong, or even sijo doesnt know these pre 1900 teaching.
Similar to everyone can take differential equation class in the university but not every one who took the class become the world class mathematician.
Similar to only those who knows differential equation knows what it is and those who knows only basic addition have no clue what is it.
The purpose of I post this classical information which is infact, the SLT101 of 1850, is to share to the general public
so that one can have a proper understanding of ancient TCMA. 150 years ago, Only after can graps the following that one be able to enter into the proper SLT/SNT practice. and have result. and today, by this standard, for the general public, SLT/SNT is 70 dead.
These hundred of years DNA evidence not only shows us what is SLT/SNT or the core of WCK,
it also lead us to know:
WCK is not origin from Shao Lin ,
Wing Chun is not Weng Chun.
Wing Chun is not only Tan Bong Fok… the advance WCK deal with Momentum flow as state in the kuen kuit.
and also, lots of so called WCK internal training or WCK Taiji connection are a creation of some one within the past 60 years.
in addition, not all internal training is the same, Taiji has Taiji’s way, Emei has emei’s way, Shao LIn has Shao Lin’s way.
IE: the Shao LIn’s Yi Jing Jing in an internal art it starts its training with the lung medirian.
Emei 12 zhuang on another hand starts its training with Liver medirian… eventhought they all use medirians and channel for cultivation, but due to different in channel selection and sequence the result is different.
and ofcorse, taiji has a different way. even among taiji there are different ways…
One must not lump this together and thinking everything is the same.
Well, most of use might not like to hear these. However, those are the facts we all have to face.
Finally, a word for those who keep bring up Internal WCK. Face it if your attainment or even your sigung’s attainement is far from the following classic, forget about bring up the Internal WCK, because you dont know and not even train in it. So, what is the point to preach something or judge others on what one have no clue — isnt that an act of self righteous fantasy?
1,
The following is White Crane of Fujian 1650’s example of holistic TCMA platform.
It consist of both the external Momentum and the Internal condition of body.
This is a Kang “hard method” according to the ancient
white Crane Fujian catagorization.
White CRane of Fujian.
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2, The following is Emei 12 Zhuang platform ( a creation of 1280’s) which goes a few level deeper into the mnd and body into Shen and Qi. This is a Rou "soft " method according to ancient Emei 12 zhuang catagorization
3
(the following is why the art is not for show off)
,
,
3, The fusion of the White Crane and Emei becomes the SLT of WCK.
A sample of kuen kuit for practicing SLT passing down by Yik Kam, the red boat actor. Which shows by evidents the fusion taking place.
..
…
:,.
PS: some one who know Classical Chinese well want to translate this so that once for all the Western world or even modern East knows what is going on? Please do it.
That is better then keep complaining how the West screw up, no proper teaching…etc. Come on, translate these stuffs and educate everyone so that everyone not screwing up.
anyone to do scientific test? go a head, train it according to the ancient TCMA as the above, test yourself scientifically and see the result for yourself. As the Chinese saying says, Pure Gold have no fear of fire. Facts are facts scientific are good tool to again prove facts are facts.
chee where are you when we need you
try approaching with a modicum of decency and courtesy
I’ll show you mine if you show ne yours.
[QUOTE=anerlich;925032]I’ll show you mine if you show ne yours.[/QUOTE]
I see that your “modern” crosstraining has taken you into new paths.:eek:
Are we at last seeing a more “internal” Anerlich?
[QUOTE=AdrianK;924945]Seriously.
All this talk of internal this, internal that.
So wheres the proof?
1.) Anyone got any legitimate videos?
2.) And what the hell is internal power, anyway?
3.) Does it give you punching power?
Does it allow you to absorb a punch?
4.) How is it any different from what the human body can normally do, with training?
5.) Anyone ever use it in any legitimate sporting competition? Boxing? MMA? Football? Baseball? ANYTHING?
So nows the time all you DBZ fanatics, put up or shut up[/QUOTE]
How do you dead lift 350lbs internally?
By using your structure to lift it rather than only your tendons and muscles.
Use of whole body power and utilization is internal in my opinion.
Plus my door is always open.
Anyone can come hit me anytime, and see that I can accept what you throw at me.
I also would love to be hit both hardwork and boulderdawg as they would finally see what true kung fu training can do for someone.
[QUOTE=Dale Dugas;925183]By using your structure to lift it rather than only your tendons and muscles.
Use of whole body power and utilization is internal in my opinion.
[/QUOTE]
Give that man a Cigar.
See I’d rather do away with the term “internal” because, really, using your body structure to best advantage should be a universal aspect of martial arts and not a preserve of Taijiquan.
Having done Xingyi (and Taiji for that matter) I never encountered anything that made them really different from other martial training. I thus questioned the “internal” ideal.
The problem is one of words superceeding deeds - people get so attached to the mystical overtones of “internal” that they disregard the actions that make an art “internal” according to any non-mystical definition.
So I’d rather just practice with good structure and leave the word “internal” to the yellow bamboo types.
[QUOTE=SimonM;925189]See I’d rather do away with the term “internal” because, really, using your body structure to best advantage should be a universal aspect of martial arts and not a preserve of Taijiquan.
Having done Xingyi (and Taiji for that matter) I never encountered anything that made them really different from other martial training. I thus questioned the “internal” ideal.
The problem is one of words superceeding deeds - people get so attached to the mystical overtones of “internal” that they disregard the actions that make an art “internal” according to any non-mystical definition.
So I’d rather just practice with good structure and leave the word “internal” to the yellow bamboo types.[/QUOTE]
You actually hit the nail on the head with the problem in using the term “internal”, all the crap that is associated with it.
Ki master getting their butts handed to them by MMA guy.
Yellow bamboo fools.
Over inflated descriptions of parlour tricks.
People with a vested interest in playing the “mystic card”.
etc, etc.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;924982]
If you think of it in terms of overall body development, core strength and ability to use dynamic tension, )[/QUOTE]
What is dynamic tension?
[QUOTE=Dale Dugas;925183]Plus my door is always open.
Anyone can come hit me anytime, and see that I can accept what you throw at me.[/QUOTE]
Does it work if they hit you in the face, or is it only in the fat stomach?
Because I know another really fat guy who can take a full on abdominal strike and he’s never had a day of training in his life.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;925239]What is dynamic tension?[/QUOTE]
Isokinetics, slef imposed isokinetics.
Sanchin, Iron Wire, that kind of stuff.