Why CMA Doesn't Win the UFC

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Mixed Martial Arts
1

So after last week where I was looking for a school, any school, that allowed me to train but didn’t require me to learn their version of their forms.

It really hit me. Why doesn’t CMA win the UFC? CMA has striking, right? CMA has grappling, right? CMA has kicking, right? So why doesn’t CMA win the UFC?

Could it be because of the emphasis on forms, rather than techniques? Could it be that the very premise of CMA is flawed?

Think about it. Go from one boxing gym to another, how long does it take you to work out with another person? About 2 seconds, right? Go from one BJJ school to another, how long does it take you to roll with somebody? Your first day, right? Go to a Muay Thai school or kickboxing school, how long until you’re working techniques with a partner? First day, right? If not the first day, then shortly thereafter.

How many forms do you have to learn for any of these? None. Except maybe Muay Thai if it’s totally traditional, but not the way it’s taught in kickboxing schools.

Perhaps the very premise of CMA being based upon forms is faulty if you consider that obviously it doesn’t produce good fighters.

2

um, i guess maybe. i hardly see people practice the fighting aspect of it too much. htere are schools that do. chinese military systems do too. yeah plus no pressure points in ufc and no fish hooking and individual finger or toe locks. there goes a good arsenal of moves :frowning:

plus this had been discussed many times. also is it me or is ufc tailored more towards jj and those arts.

3

It’s probably been discussed, but I never really considered it myself. I guess I shouldn’t have wasted the space. Anyways, I think the training regime of CMA is the problem. Too much forms work and too little free partner practice and sparring.

That, plus if you change schools you have to do all their forms all over again, which wastes a ton of time.

IMHO CMA is a great time waster and money maker for instructors who can convince students to practice weapons forms for weapons not used in 100 years or more, but that’s it.

4

Then go somewhere else…Why are you posting this on a Chinese Martial Arts forum? I went through your posts, and I have yet to find one where you are not *****ing. Why dont you head over to 6th and king street in Seattle, WA when you are there, and see if you have any doubts that those guys can fight.

5

Absolutely. The forms are so dense with information that just knowing one would be enough. So why so many forms? Personally, I gave up on learning forms about a year ago (27 at last count) and I’m focused more on free sparring and ways to train applications.

Boxers, wrestlers, muy thai you start practicing with a partner from day one. TCMA you spend a lot of time, by yourself, learning forms on forms on forms.

Forms have there place but they are overemphasized to the exclusion of partner training both coreographed and freestyle…and ultimately that’s where you’re going to learn how to fight.

6

The premise of CMA? No.
I gather from your post you’ve been unable to find a teacher who has the relative experience or desire to train students in the martial aspects. Keep looking…they’re out there. Good luck finding that in most martial arts, regardless of ethinic origin.

One word of advice however…If you’re looking for dominance in the UFC, i.e. to be a professional fighter, go hang out in an MMA gym. Chances are you will have a very short lived career at it unless you are a natural.

7

You know, aftr much relection, I have come t the conclusion that forms were originally for TEACHERS to oranise thier curriculem. Thye were not for students.

After a time, with the advent of comercial schools, and health oriented students, forms became more and more popular for the athletic aspect. At the same time fighting was more and more frowned on as martial arts teachers were trying to rise on the social ladder, and fit in with the educated elite.

Kung Fu origianlly looked like MMA, techniqus, two man work, and lots and lots of drills. Forms were only practiced by teachers to review thier curriculem and keep some assemblance of conditioning.

8

I see your point. I just left a school that was forms based. But the base of any CMA style is the forms. This doesn’t mean that all you practice is the forms. This couldn’t be further from the truth. The only way to become a good fighter is to practice drill and spar with another person. My current sifu says all the time that punching air only gets you so far. To make the techniques work you have to drill them.

Boxing, you have to drill the combinations over and over again. Same thing with BJJ, Same with Muay Tai and it should be the same at your kung fu school.

My current instructor has us spend about 10 to 15 minutes max on forms per class and the next 45 minutes to an hour drilling two man applications.

Maybe I’m just one of the lucky ones.

Also…

I’m really getting tired of all martial arts being measured by their effectiveness in the UFC. Since when did the UFC become the be-all in martial arts? Can you kick a guy in the nuts? NO! Many, many martial arts techniques either begin or end with a kick to the nuts. You can’t do this in the UFC. So how can they call it the “ULTIMATE”? I study 7 star praying mantis. There are A LOT of groin strikes, throat attacks and eye pokes. All of which are illegal moves in the UFC (for good reason). So what am I left with? Footwork, kicks, punches, Chin Na. All of which are already in the UFC. If you ask me, the UFC is filled with the legal moves of CMA. Which also just happen to be the legal moves in other martial arts as well.

9

Here comes 2 cents

I would just like to say, as I have said before (though not rememberably), every human being has their own singular opinion/belief about life and how they get through it. “Whatever works for you”, basically. TCMA or just simply CMA is about forms. We all know this. It is up to the individual to decide which or what style/form/application/mode/hold/attack/defense/responsibility/respect/lineage/history/legend/following/code or actual art is best for them. Having said that, it is my belief that forms are a way of having more than enough than too little. IMO, the idea was to compile an arsenal of moves (all inclusive) instead of just a couple that work. I relate it to “always bring more cable than you need, that way, you aren’t stuck when you need more than the inventory stated”. Am I making sense here?

All that being said, I am a UGE fan of UFC, Pride, K1 and enjoy immensely the heart (blood, sweat and tears really) of this new age of MMA and NHB fighters.

I am not here to dispute the “betterness” of TMA or MMA, I’m just trying to possibly state that the two are not alike. You say tomahto, I say tomato. Do what you do because you like it and it feels right for you.

I guess IMO these arguments are pointless as we are all different and do EVERYTHING for different reasons.

TuG.

10

I’ve been to Chinatown in Seattle (if you can call it Chinatown, it’s the smallest one in any major city I’ve come across), and I know those guys can fight – that is, the semi homeless guys hanging around outside, lol.

My main point isn’t to diss CMA in particular or anything but rather make the observation that the training regime in most places doesn’t seem convenient or conducive to creating good fighters. Obviously this won’t be popular, I won’t post this on here anymore.

11

You are one of the lucky ones, that’s for sure.

Right, so you’d expect if the training regime of most CMA schools was as effective as other arts, that the CMA fighters would do better. But this doesn’t seem to be the case. Most of the UFC fighters instead seem to be taking boxing/kickboxing/BJJ.

Of course, UFC/Pride/etc. isn’t the end all be all of fighting. It’s a ring sport. But it is one of the few places where fighters actually seem to be fighting realistically outside the street.

12

It really seems like this is true and a big change seems to have happened in the past 20 years or so. When I took CMA in the '80s, mostly it was techniques, drills, punching, kicking and sparring. Forms were something that you did, but they were just for belt requirements. It wasn’t like you started out with forms.

I’ve been talking to Tai Chi students of Doc Fai Wong (evidently my first sifu studied with Doc Fai Wong) and they’ve been saying that their tai chi starts out with drills and techniques from day 1. The form is something you study, but it’s not necessary to get your feet wet.

Contrast that to the Tai Chi schools with somebody like Yang Jun (the Yang lineage holder), where it’s nothing but form work for like a year or more until you get to push-hands, and they seem to teach few fighting aspects ever.

13

Why CMA doesn’t win the UFC

The reasons why CMA doesn’t win the UFC

  1. All teachers want to make a living. If you teach your students the real stuff (tradition way of training), you will unlikely to have a student left in your class after first day’s training. You have to teach the water down techniques to your students inorder to keep them happy. I know a teacher who teaches the traditional way of training in praying mantis. When I was there learning praying mantis years ago, my forearms and shins were black and coverd with bruises after every lesson. The lessons were boring and painfully hurt. We started off with 15 people in the class and end up with 6 people after 1 month training (4 lessons). My ex-teacher was not making any money from his classs. He was doing it out of the love of teaching. He had been doing this for more than 20 years and had taught less than 50 people during this time.
  2. Are you willing to get hurt in the UFC? Not many people want to get hurt in a fight. Many people will encourage other people to fight, but they themselves will never enter into any one of the NHB tournament. If you want to see people from CMA to win the UFC, then YOU should enter it yourself. I cannot enter myself in any of the NHB, because my wing chun was very badly taught and I will lose.
  3. How many people are winning to train 7 hours a day inorder to win a tournament? Not many!

Hitman

14

vision narrowing…opinion…hardening, get the bat revivifier robin, this stupid ass thread has made itslf a threat to gotham once again.

Smacks original poster in back of head You think this is a topic? Troll. lol

Now go read Chuck Liddell’s tatoo 1000 times and stuff a bag of spaghetti noodles, uncooked up yer grain chute as penitance for creating such a retarded thread.

15

If Bruce Lee was around 30 and posting on here many would consider him a troll instead of a free thinker.

If by Rudyard Kipling

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build ‘em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: “Hold on!”

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son.

16

I would argue that this was not the original premise, but was pushed in that direction by government pressure to make something politcally dangerous flowery … it continues today as wushu replaces function.

It continues in the US because teachers make a lot of money dangling form infront of students. Though I would have to ask which version of forms would you expect to learn from school (a) … school (b)s? That makes no sense.

You have a few options:

  1. Do something about it … find a good CMA teacher and become a fighter yourself and go out and prove it works

  2. Find a style that works for you and go out and fight

  3. Complain about it on the internet and remain stagnant

17

Well I was actually planning on quitting CMA period, but after much consideration, I’m thinking of dropping CMA in favor of martial arts styles where they don’t do form work.

18

I’m really getting tired of all martial arts being measured by their effectiveness in the UFC. Since when did the UFC become the be-all in martial arts? Can you kick a guy in the nuts? NO! Many, many martial arts techniques either begin or end with a kick to the nuts. You can’t do this in the UFC. So how can they call it the “ULTIMATE”? I study 7 star praying mantis. There are A LOT of groin strikes, throat attacks and eye pokes. All of which are illegal moves in the UFC (for good reason). So what am I left with? Footwork, kicks, punches, Chin Na. All of which are already in the UFC. If you ask me, the UFC is filled with the legal moves of CMA. Which also just happen to be the legal moves in other martial arts as well.

On the other hand…if you can’t fight well, those attacks aren’t going to do you much good anyway. Good weapons, but without the delivery system, they are not much use.

I know the street is not the ring, but you know what? The kwoon is not the street either. Everybody plays by rules for safety.

Otherwise, there’d be a lot of blind eunuchs with tracheotomies out there…

neilhytholt, here’s my take for what it’s worth. BJJ, Judo, Wrestling, etc, tend to attract a certain subset of people that WANT to compete. They are willing to do the things that that entails. Further, the sportive context within which these combative sports/arts exist is integral to the art itself. What I mean by that is simple: Nobody argues about whether Jason Morris in NY and the SJSU Judo club are good schools. Nobody argues about whether Arizona State and Iowa are good wrestling colleges. Nobody argues over who coached whom…people only argue over which place is BETTER. The standards are clear, and measured against those standards, you know where to go to find top quality instruction. Yes, there are local clubs and hobbyists - some of them quite bad. But if you WANT to find great instruction and compete, you can.

Contrast this with the state of “traditional” MA. The emphasis was never on competition. There are usually a billion different little associations each with their affiliate schools, no standardized rule sets and each with their own world champion. There are constant arguments over what constitutes good instruction, about what the art really is, about who is really a good coach. There are even arguments over who is truly representing the “style” and what that means (heck, look at WT/WC/VT). There are also infinitely more “hobbyists” - guys that show up maybe twice a week, and more informal, less professional schools with odd schedules that only really even meet twice a week or so.

To sum up. Lots of TCMA guys just don’t care about competition and the UFC. And that’s totally fine. Some of those guys could surely compete and do well. It would require training like a competitor, which they may or may not do. But many of them probably just don’t care.

19

““In 1985, when I moved from Hawaii to California, I switched it from Kaju Kenbo to Hawaiian Kempo. I added some things to it, took away some things and started calling it Hawaiian Kempo. I took out the katas and the forms and I threw in more natural fighting techniques and conditioning. Now that’s my style. Like if you see Chuck (Liddell) with the tattoo on his arm, that’s the logo for my school.””

http://www.knucklepit.com/mixed-martial-arts-john_hackleman.htm

Is that the tatoo you were referring to?

20

say what?

I guess they aren’t too up on japanese…

ma mi mu me mo

na ni nu ne no and ‘n’

maybe they were thinking of ‘l’ and ‘r’