Who Switched from External to Internal Martial Arts and Why?

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts
41

[QUOTE=Neeros;1262150] It’s ok, I know I’m not going to change your view about my school, its no biggie. [/QUOTE]

David, it’s not your school. It’s the school of the person who makes all the money. Schools, styles, systems, forms, stances - all just points on the journey that we try for a while, looking for where wushu really is.

[QUOTE=Neeros;1262150]

However a couple points, there is a wide range of opinion in Wahnam about how the horse stance can be practiced, personally I practice it a fair bit lower than my Sisook Leo in that vid you linked, who’s horse stance is closer to that of GM Lam Sai Wing. Mine is not quite parallel, but with a slight pyramid shape like in a picture below of another Sisook.

vs

Neither is wrong, and both have wonderful benefits within the spectrum of flow and consolidation respectively.

[/QUOTE]

One of the difficult things to get across to people in Chinese wushu is not to ‘fetishise’ particular postures or stances. This is a particular problem in yiquan with the fetishisation zhan zhuang - something that has spread quite widely now, including to Shaolin Wah Nam. A horse stance is really just a basic stance - if you practice basics extensively for years, then no surprise, you will become good at basics. That is, assuming you practice the basics correctly - a lot of people practice poor basics for years, and end up with double nothing.

More usefully, I would suggest that what you consider to be a basic in the first place should continue to evolve - otherwise, you become very scelrotic in your progress. But - I’ve been where you are, and I understand that we get caught in the fetishisation period, simply because we’re looking for the ‘secret’ of wushu, so we get distracted down all kinds of side alleys - the funniest of which is probably doing horse stance/toilet sitting for an hour

[QUOTE=Neeros;1262150]
So…you simply asked an obnoxious question, I understand now. Nothing was really accomplished.
[/QUOTE]

No, nothing was acoomplished, and nothing was learned. However, it is typically despicable of Shaolin Wah Nam to invite people who don’t believe the hype to come down and test it, and then when people do, then attack people for doing so as ‘obnoxious’. The only thing that makes that even worse is the corrupt pretence that it’s actually you who are the honourable school. But if that’s what you think wu de is, then that’s up to you.

[QUOTE=Neeros;1262150]

My schools shaolin lineage is quite direct I assure you. Not that it matters to anyone. :slight_smile:
[/QUOTE]

Well, I think Wong Kiew Kit has some kind of folk wushu lineage - but it is pretty difficult to get round the fact that he admits - and you admit - that he made up his taiji. Can you explain, in that case, in what way he has an authentic taiji ‘lineage’ - i.e. when he didn’t actually learn from a human being?

[QUOTE=Neeros;1262150]
Wanna keep going? This is entertaining for sure.
[/QUOTE]

If I didn’t want to chat about this stuff, I simply wouldn’t. I suppose more interesting is why you want to chat about it.

[QUOTE=Neeros;1262150]
My apologies, I was simply defending my training from a public attack.
[/QUOTE]

Lol - why apologise to him? He’s ‘b!tching’ in precisely the same way that he’s accusing us of. Besides which, these are relevant issues.

[QUOTE=Neeros;1262150]
But on-topic:

My reason is the same as before, I switched to internal martial arts because muay thai even though its a great system that quickly produces combat efficiency wasn’t giving me what I was looking for in terms of a holistic development of my body, and mind. Nowadays I only use it if training partners want to practice against it. I still practice it just enough to keep the techniques and footwork fresh. [/QUOTE]

This use of terms like ‘muay thai’ etc. is another concerning issue - particualry with Shaolin wah nam, but across the CMA world more generally. Doing a bit of training once or twice a week at the local club does not make one a ‘muay thai’ fighter, any more than teaching someone to jab, cross, low round kick makes one a muay thai instructor. More on topic, your school, as many others have done, shows a lot of techniques which are supposedly useful against ‘muay thai’ and ‘boxing’, to encourage people to think of your art as superior - and yet the demonstrations are never actually with people from those arts. Which is at best dangerous, and at worst nothing but a con.

42

He’s ‘b!tching’ in precisely the same way that he’s accusing us of. Besides which, these are relevant issues.

here’s an idea, create your own thread and slander each other to death in it.

43

internal training plus external training

they lead to the same goal or endpoint.

:slight_smile:

44

[QUOTE=SPJ;1262237]internal training plus external training

they lead to the same goal or endpoint.

:)[/QUOTE]

Do they? Really? Or is this just the story that CMAists tell themselves before sleep? Is there even anyone - I mean, even one, single, CMAist who can demonstrate a realistic achivement of this ‘end point’? I don’t mean to be mean, but one would have to start defining the ‘end point’ to answer this - but CMAists don’t like to do that, because they can be measured against it. They like to talk about ‘achieving it’, and slag off anyone who doesn’t believe that they or their master has achieved it, but they don’t like to define it. If you say fight skill they say health, you say health they say fight skill.

Personally, I don’t think there is an end point - there’s only the ‘da cheng’ - the ‘ultimate achievement’ - i.e. you, the ultimate product of what you did, learned, and are. And this is usually a cery long way from the ultimate achivements of other MA in most so-called ‘CMA’.

45

[QUOTE=taiji24;1262135]How do you compare Judo and Tai Chi? Pros and Cons of each style? I have no experience in Judo.[/QUOTE]

The comparison is simple. If you add:

  • Peng with “knee seize”,
  • Lu with “leg spring”,
  • Ji with “outer hook”,
  • An with “inner hook”,
  • …

Taiji + “leg skill” = throwing art

Example: brush knee + leg hook = " (De He) - inner hook"

//youtu.be/mQRYtUExMZk

46

[QUOTE=Miqi;1262163]David, it’s not your school. It’s the school of the person who makes all the money. Schools, styles, systems, forms, stances - all just points on the journey that we try for a while, looking for where wushu really is.

One of the difficult things to get across to people in Chinese wushu is not to ‘fetishise’ particular postures or stances. This is a particular problem in yiquan with the fetishisation zhan zhuang - something that has spread quite widely now, including to Shaolin Wah Nam. A horse stance is really just a basic stance - if you practice basics extensively for years, then no surprise, you will become good at basics. That is, assuming you practice the basics correctly - a lot of people practice poor basics for years, and end up with double nothing.

More usefully, I would suggest that what you consider to be a basic in the first place should continue to evolve - otherwise, you become very scelrotic in your progress. But - I’ve been where you are, and I understand that we get caught in the fetishisation period, simply because we’re looking for the ‘secret’ of wushu, so we get distracted down all kinds of side alleys - the funniest of which is probably doing horse stance/toilet sitting for an hour

No, nothing was acoomplished, and nothing was learned. However, it is typically despicable of Shaolin Wah Nam to invite people who don’t believe the hype to come down and test it, and then when people do, then attack people for doing so as ‘obnoxious’. The only thing that makes that even worse is the corrupt pretence that it’s actually you who are the honourable school. But if that’s what you think wu de is, then that’s up to you.

Well, I think Wong Kiew Kit has some kind of folk wushu lineage - but it is pretty difficult to get round the fact that he admits - and you admit - that he made up his taiji. Can you explain, in that case, in what way he has an authentic taiji ‘lineage’ - i.e. when he didn’t actually learn from a human being?

If I didn’t want to chat about this stuff, I simply wouldn’t. I suppose more interesting is why you want to chat about it.

Lol - why apologise to him? He’s ‘b!tching’ in precisely the same way that he’s accusing us of. Besides which, these are relevant issues.

This use of terms like ‘muay thai’ etc. is another concerning issue - particualry with Shaolin wah nam, but across the CMA world more generally. Doing a bit of training once or twice a week at the local club does not make one a ‘muay thai’ fighter, any more than teaching someone to jab, cross, low round kick makes one a muay thai instructor. More on topic, your school, as many others have done, shows a lot of techniques which are supposedly useful against ‘muay thai’ and ‘boxing’, to encourage people to think of your art as superior - and yet the demonstrations are never actually with people from those arts. Which is at best dangerous, and at worst nothing but a con.[/QUOTE]

Actually my goal right now really is to go back to the basics, to consolidate the very most basics to a really deep level, to build a better foundation for the higher level training.

He never claimed to have an authentic tai chi lineage, but to have created a system of authentic tai chi based on shaolin principles. Huge difference there. It is a “Once you have the map, all paths become clear” type of thing. Earlier a friend who learned from a Yang Tai Chi school in china taught me single and double push hands in about 2 minutes and I was able to do it fairly well(though probably quite bad really XD) by applying the basic principles of waist rotation and sinking/redirecting incoming force.

I do agree with you quite a bit about “I would suggest that what you consider to be a basic in the first place should continue to evolve” that is quite a profound point.

You may believe me or not, but for the muay thai (and some very basic ground game) I was training 6 days a week with my very good friend and a professional fighter. This continued until my friend went into the navy, and our coach disbanded our training group. It was amazingly intense, and often painful training, but I still feel like it gave me a very good foundation for determining what has the potential for working. It is still my biggest regret that I never got the chance to take my training to the cage.

There are vids on youtube of some of my seniors doing some light sparring for fun with a muay thai school, they did quite well considering for most of them I think it was their first time stepping into a ring. I plan on competing in sanshou in the near future, so I suppose I shall see where my training has gotten me. Win or lose if I can hold my own I will be happy, no shame in losing to a better fighter regardless of system, just incentive to train harder and fight harder.

I do apologize for being sarcastic towards you, but you must admit that insulting my sigung was bound to raise my hackles a bit. :slight_smile:

47

[QUOTE=Neeros;1262270] Actually my goal right now really is to go back to the basics, to consolidate the very most basics to a really deep level, to build a better foundation for the higher level training.
[/QUOTE]

If you fetishise horse stance etc., then after ten years you’ll no doubt have a strong horse stance - but so what? When are you planning on being any good? When you’re 80? That’s not how people used to think in CMA.

[QUOTE=Neeros;1262270]
He never claimed to have an authentic tai chi lineage, but to have created a system of authentic tai chi based on shaolin principles.
[/QUOTE]

See - now he’s got you saying things that tie the truth in knots. You mean that it’s an authentic system simply because it ‘starts’ with Wong Kiew Kit? Sounds like a little bit of convenient double-think to me, mate - but, if you buy it, then you buy it. Literally.

[QUOTE=Neeros;1262270]
Huge difference there. It is a “Once you have the map, all paths become clear” type of thing.
[/QUOTE]

Actually, it’s the other way, as Wang Xiang Zhai taught - once you finally get a hold of the map, all the falsehoods, and lies, and failures, and false paths, and ridiculous systems and teachers are revealed for what they really are, much in the same way that a small truth in science reveals billions of ideas to be total rubbish. What Wong Kiew Kit does is the total opposite of revealing the truth - mivh like JKD, he pretends that the truth of wushu is hidden in multiple styles, which one has to learn - and indeed pay for. Which is not the truth.

Secondly, he makes the ‘truth’ of wushu into a grand, obnoxiously amazing thing that he has the keys to. The truth of wushu is just you. Or him. Or me. The great metaphysical ‘truth’ is just that you are the product of your training, coaching, ability, opportunity and dilligence. I mean - have you never seen The Silent Flute? Lol.

[QUOTE=Neeros;1262270]
Earlier a friend who learned from a Yang Tai Chi school in china taught me single and double push hands in about 2 minutes and I was able to do it fairly well(though probably quite bad really XD) by applying the basic principles of waist rotation and sinking/redirecting incoming force.
[/QUOTE]

Even if this were true, it would be you, and not your style, that adapted well. However, there are many degrees to Yang style push hands - from people with exceptional skill through to just doing a few basic exercises. Where are you on that scale? Are you sure you did it correctly? Don’t over-value being able to do something very basic (remember I said don’t fetishise basics? It’s a route to corrupted progress).

[QUOTE=Neeros;1262270]
I do agree with you quite a bit about “I would suggest that what you consider to be a basic in the first place should continue to evolve” that is quite a profound point.
[/QUOTE]

Well, thank you - but it’s really just a basic of the correct training method of Chinese wushu.

[QUOTE=Neeros;1262270]
You may believe me or not, but for the muay thai (and some very basic ground game) I was training 6 days a week with my very good friend and a professional fighter. This continued until my friend went into the navy, and our coach disbanded our training group. It was amazingly intense, and often painful training, but I still feel like it gave me a very good foundation for determining what has the potential for working. It is still my biggest regret that I never got the chance to take my training to the cage.
[/QUOTE]

Well let’s face it - you’re not on the road to doing that now, are you? I suspect that there is zero chance of learning how to cope with those guys at SWN.

[QUOTE=Neeros;1262270]
There are vids on youtube of some of my seniors doing some light sparring for fun with a muay thai school, they did quite well considering for most of them I think it was their first time stepping into a ring.
[/QUOTE]

Well we would have to see the videos to comment on them.

[QUOTE=Neeros;1262270]
I plan on competing in sanshou in the near future, so I suppose I shall see where my training has gotten me. Win or lose if I can hold my own I will be happy, no shame in losing to a better fighter regardless of system, just incentive to train harder and fight harder.
[/QUOTE]

No there’s no shame at all in that. There would be shame, however, for an instructor, if they trained you in a way that totally didn’t prepare you, and then put you in the ring under the dogmatic belief that their ‘traditional’ training can help you protect yourself, when in reality it had no chance. I rather suspect your Muay Thai firend’s training will be of far more use to you when you do do this.

[QUOTE=Neeros;1262270]
I do apologize for being sarcastic towards you, but you must admit that insulting my sigung was bound to raise my hackles a bit. :slight_smile: [/QUOTE]

I don’t need anyone’s apology. To see just how much someone really believes in what they are saying, you have to rattle the cage a bit.

48

[QUOTE=Miqi;1262272]
Well let’s face it - you’re not on the road to doing that now, are you? I suspect that there is zero chance of learning how to cope with those guys at SWN.

No there’s no shame at all in that. There would be shame, however, for an instructor, if they trained you in a way that totally didn’t prepare you, and then put you in the ring under the dogmatic belief that their ‘traditional’ training can help you protect yourself, when in reality it had no chance. I rather suspect your Muay Thai firend’s training will be of far more use to you when you do do this.

[/QUOTE]

I suppose we shall see. :slight_smile:

49

[QUOTE=Neeros;1262295]I suppose we shall see. :)[/QUOTE]

Eventually, you will.

50

In terms of the original question, ‘internal’ and ‘external’ don’t mean the same things to me as they do to the question poser. ‘Internal’, to me, means what Wang Xiang Zhai described as ‘proceeding by intuition’. And I can say that I certainly did ‘switch’ to this method of training at a very distinct and particular point. The reason was simply that I finally understood why I had been practicing martial arts all these years. The ‘why’ isn’t important now, and nor is why I came to make the realisation - the only important thing was that the ‘why’ wasn’t because I wanted to know the real meaning of wushu. When that changed, and my reason for training became solely that, then I understood the ‘internal’ method almost instantly, like something really obvious that for various reasons I’d refused to see for a very long time. Unfortunately, understanding it is not correlated to being very good at it.

51

There is no such thing as internal and external.

there is only whole body.

52

[QUOTE=Dale Dugas;1262349]There is no such thing as internal and external.

there is only whole body.[/QUOTE]

While not arguing with this, I also note that ‘whole body power’ is the buzz phrase that is overtaking, replacing, and actually in most cases acting as simply a new name for ‘internal’ in much CMA discussion. Different name, but in most cases, all the same problems of definition, demonstration, etc.

53

[QUOTE=taiji24;1262134]Ok, so there is also a Taiji Meihua Mantis, in addition to Taiji Mantis. Is it safe to assume that Taiji Meihua is also more closely related to Mantis than to Tai Chi? Thanks for sharing. I didn’t know the difference.[/QUOTE]

Yes, it is just mantis.

However, you may enjoy the following story.

As I mentioned previously, after my heart surgery I took up Yang style Tajiquan for a lower impact workout. My sifu has a female student, who has trained taijiquan under him for years, lead the class. I explained to her that my knowledge of taijiquan was limited to what I had read in books and videos that I had seen on Youtube. So, I was less than a novice. After a couple classes of watching me move and realizing that I understood how to apply the movements in fighting, she eyed me with suspicion and asked me why I had said that I didn’t know taijiquan when she felt I clearly had a background in it. When I sheepishly shrugged, my sifu explained to her that I had decades of Chinese martial arts experience. And since both taijiquan and mantis were both influenced by changquan it was easy for me to understand the applications and move properly based on universal TCMA principles.

The moral of this story is that kung fu is kung fu. Each style may have a unique emphasis, but the core principles should be the same.

Unfortunately, my taijiquan still sucks in my opinion. :frowning:

54

[QUOTE=Miqi;1262412]While not arguing with this, I also note that ‘whole body power’ is the buzz phrase that is overtaking, replacing, and actually in most cases acting as simply a new name for ‘internal’ in much CMA discussion. Different name, but in most cases, all the same problems of definition, demonstration, etc.[/QUOTE]

It is not a buzzword but a concept that is easily demonstrated, defined and taught compared to people who want to think their qi moves them and not their structure.

No Qi just me.

55

[QUOTE=Dale Dugas;1262441]It is not a buzzword but a concept that is easily demonstrated, defined and taught compared to people who want to think their qi moves them and not their structure.

No Qi just me.[/QUOTE]

Well, it doesn’t matter what you think moves you, nor how you describe it. Only what you actually do counts - and many now use ‘whole body power’ to describe what they do simply because it’s the latest buzz phrase. Like everything else in Chinese wushu, it’s actual, true meaning is now mostly obscured in the slew of misguided individuals claiming to have ‘it’.

56

[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1262416]Yes, it is just mantis.

However, you may enjoy the following story.

As I mentioned previously, after my heart surgery I took up Yang style Tajiquan for a lower impact workout. My sifu has a female student, who has trained taijiquan under him for years, lead the class. I explained to her that my knowledge of taijiquan was limited to what I had read in books and videos that I had seen on Youtube. So, I was less than a novice. After a couple classes of watching me move and realizing that I understood how to apply the movements in fighting, she eyed me with suspicion and asked me why I had said that I didn’t know taijiquan when she felt I clearly had a background in it. When I sheepishly shrugged, my sifu explained to her that I had decades of Chinese martial arts experience. And since both taijiquan and mantis were both influenced by changquan it was easy for me to understand the applications and move properly based on universal TCMA principles.

The moral of this story is that kung fu is kung fu. Each style may have a unique emphasis, but the core principles should be the same.

Unfortunately, my taijiquan still sucks in my opinion. :([/QUOTE]

Excellent insight! Thanks! Your previous training in other martial arts will definitely show, as the way you move will be very different from complete novice. They won’t be wasted.

Maybe someday, instead of Taiji Mantis, you can develop a Mantis Tai Chi :slight_smile:

57

No_Know’s Say and External to Internal Switch

My impression was that taiji- could be applied to a pre-existing style much as drunken had been and the pre-existing style would be performed with taiji flavor, as-it-were. Although some just were not done. As to one and two push hands in minutes quite well, I think that people can be in relationships for years and not know the person they were with–the appearance might be great but the mechanics, and benefits theoretically were not. And to proceed with Looks-great but not studying the mechanics is a show and Proud and Fun, but absent of the truth of the act.

From External to Internal… I started Hung style Tiger-Crane-Bucksam Kong green and white covers book. went to blue book Shaolin Internal Kung-Fu, five animals and then Multi-color cover Hueng Family Five pattern (five animals as the Shaolin book. Hung and Shaolin referenced the same animals but wit different aspects. Big Note:The order of learning hit me Big.The Shao lin book had basic excerpts from what I refer to as Da Mo one seventy one. And had six exercises/styles of each animal. Heung Family Had straight form for that animal but linked the end to elevate conditioning and skill sort of thing. New Note: do the basics it not just doing that thing. The talk of foundation might refer to conditioning and strength only gained from practiced doing–by developing one set of conditioned response I can rely on a quicker start time when reacting to something different but that will follow that conditioned course. And with the foundation as with tree roots the tree trunk. From a practiced established tree trunk-strong branches.-No_Know

…Shaolin went Dragon, Snake, Tiger, Leopard, Crane. Five pattern went Tiger Leopard, Dragon, Snake, Crane. The Shaolin went with Spirit Breath Bones-Tendons, Ligaments/…sort-of-way. Five Pattern–Strength, Power,Grappling, Sneak attack,~Intimidation.

When I heard about chi I looked at the big three then- The Internal arts-Tai ji chuan was popular so I stayed away from that. I might have come to Pa Kua Chang first liked to greatly–the Original school with animal transitions Bear Phoenix Unicorn? Monkey Hawk Dragon [not in this order] But starting with Single palm Change and then Double Plam Change. There was an instruction that might benefit your study of other people’s study in their journey–it said that the Snake change is sometimes called the Crane. The name doesn’t matter[the book said] The technique does (so learn it.-ish.-No_Know

I was all about the internal while practicing the external. I cheated my external practice not getting its full benefit of muscles and strength and powerful, yet I liked the result way nice for me go through External motions but have Internal mechanics-ish.

I went on to attempt a Breathing of my own–Ernie Moore Jr.'s Kung-Fu (attempt) Squirrel. I noticed after two decades I could use the hard of External–it can literaly hold my flesh in place and fast quick hard has a place in breathing and moving; getting me through where soft gets bogged down.

If you were all thought you’d have no body, not even a brain for it too is physical. Losing the vehicle through which to transmit your self you lose yourself. If you were a body with no thought, emotion or soul you’d be a corpse/stump/ soulless mass…Internal and External seem to benefit from each other however one should learn their parts completely and separately. Combining while learning is as attaching ether to nothing–doing without knowing…Without a sticky frictioned foundation, sticky doesn’t stick.

No_Know

58

Internal and external are simply labels used to describe communalities and differences between training methods.

At the end of the day a martial artist, in large part, are students of movement. Efficiency, applicability, and control are what every martial artist strives to have in their movements.

As the old saying goes; All roads lead to Rome.

In this case Rome is your training goals.

The way i see it, there are 3 goals for a martial artist. Some aim for all three some go for just one.

These are:

Combat proficiency
Health and body mind awareness
Improved quality of life

It doesnt matter what label or “road” you use, all “styles” can get you to Rome provided you have the desire, drive and dedication to see your journey through until you quit or you die.

/step

59

There’s a saying:
“External arts train from external to internal. Internal arts train from internal to external.”

Eventually, as Dale and Lucas are saying, there is one body.

We don’t get to decide what internal or external means. They are clear concepts devised long ago.

An external art is like Shaolin. Train the physical body to punch and kick with brute force, and withstand blows with conditioning. External styles use hard jing, which is like getting hit by a car. I was too old, injured, and lame for Shaolin at age 30, so I switched to tai Chi.

Internal arts train qigong. Increase the quantity of Qi, improve the quality of circulation. Use soft whipping power to strike vital points, like Tai Chi. Internal styles use soft jing, which is like getting stabbed through your internal organs.

Eventually they both reach the same goal, or so I have read, but have barely actually seen. “kung fu is kung fu.”
(My Tai Chi also sucks. I went to school to learn Qigong anyway in the first place, to stop getting sick.)

60

There’s a saying:
“External arts train from external to internal. Internal arts train from internal to external.”

Eventually, as Dale is saying, there is one body.

We don’t get to decide what internal or external means. They are clear concepts devised long ago.

An external art is like Shaolin. Train the physical body to punch and kick with brute force, and withstand blows with conditioning. External styles use hard jing, which is like getting hit by a car. I was too old, injured, and lame for Shaolin at age 30, so I switched to practicing tai Chi.

Internal arts train qigong. Increase the quantity of Qi, improve the quality of circulation. Use soft whipping power to strike vital points, like Tai Chi. Internal styles use soft jing, which is like getting stabbed through your internal organs.

Eventually they both reach the same goal, or so I have read, but have barely actually seen. But, that is the concept as far as I understand.