Who Switched from External to Internal Martial Arts and Why?

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts
21

[QUOTE=Neeros;1261987] Because I clearly was trying to entangle you :slight_smile: It was a simple and direct question really. If you haven’t sparred with us, or received our training and practiced it for some time, you really can’t judge us.
[/QUOTE]

As I’ve already mentioned, I have actually been to your school, to ask in person why you’re all so obnoxious about your club system, which, from the outside, appears to be comically low level.

If you’re now telling me that I can’t possibly see why it’s so great until I’m actually brainwashed into its BS, to the degree that produces threads like this:

http://www.wongkiewkit.com/forum/showthread.php?2334-1st-Shaolin-Law-Required-to-Respect-the-Master

Then yes, pal, I can see that’s probably true - I would probably have to be brainwashed before I began to see the merits of this fairly obvious hoax. As it is, although I’m personally very low level in the great scheme of things, I know more about Chinese wushu than Wong Kiew Kit ever will, so I’m amply situated to judge him, and you, and your group.

[QUOTE=Neeros;1261987]

I’ve seen the benefits of my training first hand both in my personal life and when training with fighters of other systems. [/QUOTE]

That’s only true because it’s a lie, I’m sorry to say. Those ‘fighters’ of other systems were no such thing.

[QUOTE=Neeros;1261987]

The whole cult/not-a-cult thing has been debated to death really. I am free to explore other systems/styles/ways of thinking, we’re not so rigid as you might think. [/QUOTE]

I don’t really think it’s a cult as such - although i think at the higer organisational levels it probably is. I think your group is just ‘concerning’, at your level - and also laughable, at your level. Last time I checked, I’m free to think that too.

22

By the way, while we’re on the subject of authentic wushu, you do realise that Wong Kiew Kit invented his own taiji after reading a basic book on Yang taiji, right? Which your group no pretends is possible because of his immensely high level - which somehow makes what he’s invented more ‘authhentic’ than actual lineage holders’ taiji, lmao. That’s some cultish double think right there. Not that being a lineage holder means anything anyway - just, wow, it’s not much of a basis for being obnoxious about ‘authenticity’, lol.

23

[QUOTE=Miqi;1261990]As I’ve already mentioned, I have actually been to your school, to ask in person why you’re all so obnoxious about your club system, which, from the outside, appears to be comically low level.

If you’re now telling me that I can’t possibly see why it’s so great until I’m actually brainwashed into its BS, to the degree that produces threads like this:

http://www.wongkiewkit.com/forum/showthread.php?2334-1st-Shaolin-Law-Required-to-Respect-the-Master

Then yes, pal, I can see that’s probably true - I would probably have to be brainwashed before I began to see the merits of this fairly obvious hoax. As it is, although I’m personally very low level in the great scheme of things, I know more about Chinese wushu than Wong Kiew Kit ever will, so I’m amply situated to judge him, and you, and your group.

That’s only true because it’s a lie, I’m sorry to say. Those ‘fighters’ of other systems were no such thing.

I don’t really think it’s a cult as such - although i think at the higer organisational levels it probably is. I think your group is just ‘concerning’, at your level - and also laughable, at your level. Last time I checked, I’m free to think that too.[/QUOTE]

  1. What pray tell is so fundamentally wrong with respecting your Sifu, and following their instructions?

  2. How is learning a system and practicing it being brainwashed? Though I am glad you have learned so much you can judge another system without practicing it or with it’s practitioners.

  3. I am impressed, you must have developed great powers of intuition to see truth in a situation from a forum post without evidence.

[QUOTE=Miqi;1261992]By the way, while we’re on the subject of authentic wushu, you do realise that Wong Kiew Kit invented his own taiji after reading a basic book on Yang taiji, right? Which your group no pretends is possible because of his immensely high level - which somehow makes what he’s invented more ‘authhentic’ than actual lineage holders’ taiji, lmao. That’s some cultish double think right there. Not that being a lineage holder means anything anyway - just, wow, it’s not much of a basis for being obnoxious about ‘authenticity’, lol.[/QUOTE]

  1. Yes I did know that, and I also know that it is highly effective in all the ways taijiquan should be. It is worth noting that one of our instructors is a student of Yang Taijiquan and sees benefit in both. Another of our instructors practices Chen Taijiquan and sees benefit in both. We do unabashedly claim to have high level arts, because without fail we get high level benefits. It would be a simple matter to solve with for example three star hitting to see which of us has more force, but over the internet without options for direct experience a conversation like this can just go on and on and on and on ad infinitum.
24

[QUOTE=Neeros;1261997] 1. What pray tell is so fundamentally wrong with respecting your Sifu, and following their instructions? [/QUOTE]

Well, I would suggest that a certain degree of sensible perspective in regards to a ‘leader’ is healthy, when one joins a group of any kind. I’m suspecting that this is a lesson you will have to learn the hard way, like most of the rest of us. However, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with respecting your teacher - but it might be concerning if that respect becomes a blindness, or a blind obedience.

[QUOTE=Neeros;1261997]
2. How is learning a system and practicing it being brainwashed?
[/QUOTE]

Interesting question. ‘Brainwashed’ is a very patronising and over-used term. I think that you genuinely ‘want’ to believe that you are practicing genuine Chinese wushu, and you genuinely want to believe that there is an easy way, and you genuinely want to believe in the hoax - that’s how hoaxes work. As part of that, you will spend some time caught up in the group think, until you have your reality checked for you.

[QUOTE=Neeros;1261997]
Though I am glad you have learned so much you can judge another system without practicing it or with it’s practitioners.
[/QUOTE]

You don’t really mean that you’re glad. However, as I know a great deal more about wushu than you, it’s not really a big deal. As for practicing ‘with’ people from your system, let me reiterate for the third time that I took your club up on its invitation for people who didn’t believe their obnoxious claims to come down to one of their classes. I did so.

[QUOTE=Neeros;1261997]
3. I am impressed, you must have developed great powers of intuition to see truth in a situation from a forum post without evidence.

[/QUOTE]

Sadly, what goes on in your group is, far from being some great mystery, just a rather sad cliche. No great insight required - just a great deal more experience than you.

[QUOTE=Neeros;1261997]
4. Yes I did know that, and I also know that it is highly effective in all the ways taijiquan should be. [/QUOTE]

Lie. However, you have at least admitted that your so called taiji is just some nonsense that Wong Kiew Fraud made up out of a book.

[QUOTE=Neeros;1261997]

It is worth noting that one of our instructors is a student of Yang Taijiquan and sees benfit in both. Another of our instructors practices Chen Taijiquan and sees benefit in both.

[/QUOTE]

Erm, there is no such thing as Shaolin Wah Nam taiji - it’s some rubbish your fraud teacher cobbled together from a book.

[QUOTE=Neeros;1261997]

We do unabashedly claim to have high level arts, because without fail we get high level benefits. It would be a simple matter to solve with for example three star hitting to see which of us has more force,
[/QUOTE]

Lol.

[QUOTE=Neeros;1261997]
but over the internet without options for direct experience a conversation like this can just go on and on and on and on ad infinitum. [/QUOTE]

Yes, that’s why I went down to one of your classes, to experience the greatness of Shaolin Wah Nam in person. I may have mentioned this.

25

[QUOTE=Neeros;1261997]2. How is learning a system and practicing it being brainwashed? [/QUOTE]

If you always say,

  • We don’t do this in …
  • This is against my … principle?
  • Are you talking about …, or are you talking about TCMA in general?
  • It’s good, but it’s not …

where “…” is “your system” that you may be brainwashed.

26

There’s an interesting idea in the sociology of networks that says that innovation within a group is often rare, because people tend to harmonise their group outlook. Innovation tends to come from ideas or chance encounters with external people, events or sources of information. Any group which is actively discouraging learning from external sources must therefore be subject to the suspicion that it’s trying to protect its group outlook. I suppose all martial arts groups are a bit like this.

27

[QUOTE=Miqi;1261999]Well, I would suggest that a certain degree of sensible perspective in regards to a ‘leader’ is healthy, when one joins a group of any kind. I’m suspecting that this is a lesson you will have to learn the hard way, like most of the rest of us. However, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with respecting your teacher - but it might be concerning if that respect becomes a blindness, or a blind obedience.

Interesting question. ‘Brainwashed’ is a very patronising and over-used term. I think that you genuinely ‘want’ to believe that you are practicing genuine Chinese wushu, and you genuinely want to believe that there is an easy way, and you genuinely want to believe in the hoax - that’s how hoaxes work. As part of that, you will spend some time caught up in the group think, until you have your reality checked for you.

You don’t really mean that you’re glad. However, as I know a great deal more about wushu than you, it’s not really a big deal. As for practicing ‘with’ people from your system, let me reiterate for the third time that I took your club up on its invitation for people who didn’t believe their obnoxious claims to come down to one of their classes. I did so.

Sadly, what goes on in your group is, far from being some great mystery, just a rather sad cliche. No great insight required - just a great deal more experience than you.

Lie. However, you have at least admitted that your so called taiji is just some nonsense that Wong Kiew Fraud made up out of a book.

Erm, there is no such thing as Shaolin Wah Nam taiji - it’s some rubbish your fraud teacher cobbled together from a book.

Lol.

Yes, that’s why I went down to one of your classes, to experience the greatness of Shaolin Wah Nam in person. I may have mentioned this.[/QUOTE]

Personally I just kept an open mind when I first started learning, it was my experiences that led me to sticking around. There was never any blindness involved.

The thought that there might be an easy way is nice, I haven’t found it yet though. I’m working towards an hour in horse stance at the moment. If that is something you consider easy then I am amazed.

Ok, so you visited a class. I guess it just wasn’t for you then, nothing wrong with that really. You claim that you know much more about “Wushu” (Please define, I know the term to mean “Performance with no martial applicability” like what is generally seen at the shaolin temple these days) I can say that right back, that I know more about kung fu than you. Either direction, the words themselves are meaningless.

My Sigung is most definitely not a fraud, I have met the man and experienced his skill first hand.

The Taiji he created is not rubbish, it is quite a good system. You quite literally put words in my mouth, I never said it was a nonesense or fraudulent (this conversation is fun so far, “yes. no. yes. no. yes. no.” ^_^)

[QUOTE=Miqi;1262025]There’s an interesting idea in the sociology of networks that says that innovation within a group is often rare, because people tend to harmonise their group outlook. Innovation tends to come from ideas or chance encounters with external people, events or sources of information. Any group which is actively discouraging learning from external sources must therefore be subject to the suspicion that it’s trying to protect its group outlook. I suppose all martial arts groups are a bit like this.[/QUOTE]

My Sifu encuraged me to study at an Ip Man lineage wing chun school I found, mainly for the sensitivity gained through chi sau. I still currently attend this school, and I find it to be an excellent training, with excellent teachers, and it is a system I plan on practicing for the rest of my life along with my shaolinquan. :smiley:

28

[QUOTE=Neeros;1262096] Personally I just kept an open mind when I first started learning, it was my experiences that led me to sticking around. There was never any blindness involved.
[/QUOTE]

David, if you’re happy to claim things such as that you have authentic lineage taiji, AND at the same time admit that your teacher just made up his taiji from a book, then at some point I suspect you’re going to have to decide in your own heart if you’re really being honest with yourself and others. For me, Shaolin Wah Nam is just the martial arts system your brother invented when he was 12 combined with the business plan of Scientology.

[QUOTE=Neeros;1262096]
The thought that there might be an easy way is nice, I haven’t found it yet though. I’m working towards an hour in horse stance at the moment. If that is something you consider easy then I am amazed.
[/QUOTE]

Actually, I just find it trivial. Anyway, if the horse stance looks like this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQGuPxXj1I0 - than that’s not really a big deal, is it?

[QUOTE=Neeros;1262096]
Ok, so you visited a class. I guess it just wasn’t for you then, nothing wrong with that really.
[/QUOTE]

David, as I think you understand clearly enough, I didn’t go down to one of your classes to ‘try’ it - as I’ve already told you, I went down and asked the instructor, directly, why your school is so obnoxious about its clearly comically low level. I did this following a published invitation from your school to do so. You understand precisely what I’m telling you.

[QUOTE=Neeros;1262096]

You claim that you know much more about “Wushu” (Please define, I know the term to mean “Performance with no martial applicability”
[/QUOTE]

Well that’s a good example of your ignorance, right there. There again, I understand ‘Shaolin’ to mean ‘having some connection to Shaolin’, lol - which you obviously don’t.

[QUOTE=Neeros;1262096]
like what is generally seen at the shaolin temple these days) I can say that right back, that I know more about kung fu than you. Either direction, the words themselves are meaningless.
[/QUOTE]

What you mean by ‘know about kung fu’ is just that you compare things to your own school, and if they don’t look the same, then they aren’t kung fu. Most of us have been at that stage of development. It’ll just take some kind of reality check to make you see that that’s not quite the way to assess it.

[QUOTE=Neeros;1262096]
My Sigung is most definitely not a fraud, I have met the man and experienced his skill first hand.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, but who are you to judge?

[QUOTE=Neeros;1262096]

The Taiji he created is not rubbish, it is quite a good system. You quite literally put words in my mouth, I never said it was a nonesense or fraudulent (this conversation is fun so far, “yes. no. yes. no. yes. no.” ^_^)
[/QUOTE]

Well, you’ve admitted that its claim to any authentic ‘lineage’ is rubbish.

[QUOTE=Neeros;1262096]

My Sifu encuraged me to study at an Ip Man lineage wing chun school I found, mainly for the sensitivity gained through chi sau. I still currently attend this school, and I find it to be an excellent training, with excellent teachers, and it is a system I plan on practicing for the rest of my life along with my shaolinquan. :smiley: [/QUOTE]

Ah well, plans are funny things. If I were you, I wouldn’t get a Shaolin Wah Nam tattoo just yet.

29

wow way to ruin a thread with your petty bullsh!t guys.

30

[QUOTE=Dragonzbane76;1262103]wow way to ruin a thread with your petty bullsh!t guys.[/QUOTE]

Is this your group?

http://www.pailum.org/

31

nope… although I did learn pai lum. Never liked glenn Wilson’s stuff. arrogant ass that he is. He’s a perfect example of whats wrong with Kung fu these days IMO.

32

[QUOTE=Dragonzbane76;1262128]nope… although I did learn pai lum. Never liked glenn Wilson’s stuff. arrogant ass that he is. He’s a perfect example of whats wrong with Kung fu these days IMO.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough. But if every time someone says something like you’re saying here - which seems a pretty accurate assessment from what I saw on that website - someone then closes it down by saying it’s petty bickering, then nothing ever gets properly discussed and aired.

33

the title of the thread is “who switched from external to internal martial arts and why?” Not hey your teacher is a joke blah blah blah…you suck type of things. I didn’t come on this thread to hear about what ever disagreement you 2 have and honestly I don’t care what disagreement is there. If you wanna air it, IM them. Airing it does not mean I want to sort through your guys crap to actually read what someone has to say about the actual topic.

34

[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1261873]The two are not related. My friend, Will Willams, who studies Taiji Mantis under Zhou Zhendong in Yantai, China has this to say about Taiji Mantis on his website:

The name Taiji has nothing to do with the style Taiji Quan, it is merely a nod at the philosophical principles of Yin and Yang which are present in every aspect of the style.

http://www.monkeystealspeach.co.uk/taiji-mantis.php

However, I have studied Taiji Meihua Mantis forms under three instructors.[/QUOTE]

Ok, so there is also a Taiji Meihua Mantis, in addition to Taiji Mantis. Is it safe to assume that Taiji Meihua is also more closely related to Mantis than to Tai Chi? Thanks for sharing. I didn’t know the difference.

35

[QUOTE=air;1261855]I started my training as a child in Judo and Karate (goju ryu)

I’ve been doing kung fu for the past 19 years..

I started out more as an external martial artist. Over the years and through a lot of study with Tai Chi, I would say I have
a little bit of external with a lot of internal in my martial art.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the response. How do you compare Judo and Tai Chi? Pros and Cons of each style? I have no experience in Judo.

36

How do you compare Judo and Tai Chi

not much to compare between the 2. They both have totally different training styles IMO.

37

[QUOTE=Dragonzbane76;1262133]the title of the thread is “who switched from external to internal martial arts and why?” Not hey your teacher is a joke blah blah blah…you suck type of things. I didn’t come on this thread to hear about what ever disagreement you 2 have and honestly I don’t care what disagreement there. If you wanna air it, IM them. Airing it does not mean I want to sort through your guys crap to actually read what someone has to say about the actual topic.[/QUOTE]

Well, I think part of the sub-text of this thread, as John Wang has already pointed out, is that people take up ‘styles’ or ‘switch styles’ because they buy into the claims made by particular groups. Let’s face it - no one ‘switches’ to a so called ‘internal’ style because that style has proven its ability across a wide range of martial arts combat platforms. Except for the most exceptional cases, other reasons are always more important - including the sales tactics of the teacher or group.

38

[QUOTE=taiji24;1262135]Thanks for the response. How do you compare Judo and Tai Chi? Pros and Cons of each style? I have no experience in Judo.[/QUOTE]

The average judo player is far and away a superior martial artist to the average taiji player. At the ‘highest’ level, however, I would say that a different principle comes into play - my coach said once that at the highest martial art level, there is no difference between styles, because ‘highest level’ implies that an individual has achieved a significant ability to use their system. It might be that a partucular system produces no such indivduals, or few, as in taiji, or many, as in judo - but that is a problem with training methods in the case of taiji, not a problem with taiji per se.

I had a chance once to experience the level of a judo player who had been on Britain’s national squad. To look at him, he looked nothing - like a nerd. His strength and speed, however, were phenomenal. Beware appearances!

39

[QUOTE=Miqi;1262098]David, if you’re happy to claim things such as that you have authentic lineage taiji, AND at the same time admit that your teacher just made up his taiji from a book, then at some point I suspect you’re going to have to decide in your own heart if you’re really being honest with yourself and others. For me, Shaolin Wah Nam is just the martial arts system your brother invented when he was 12 combined with the business plan of Scientology.

Actually, I just find it trivial. Anyway, if the horse stance looks like this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQGuPxXj1I0 - than that’s not really a big deal, is it?

David, as I think you understand clearly enough, I didn’t go down to one of your classes to ‘try’ it - as I’ve already told you, I went down and asked the instructor, directly, why your school is so obnoxious about its clearly comically low level. I did this following a published invitation from your school to do so. You understand precisely what I’m telling you.

Well that’s a good example of your ignorance, right there. There again, I understand ‘Shaolin’ to mean ‘having some connection to Shaolin’, lol - which you obviously don’t.

What you mean by ‘know about kung fu’ is just that you compare things to your own school, and if they don’t look the same, then they aren’t kung fu. Most of us have been at that stage of development. It’ll just take some kind of reality check to make you see that that’s not quite the way to assess it.

Yes, but who are you to judge?

Well, you’ve admitted that its claim to any authentic ‘lineage’ is rubbish.

Ah well, plans are funny things. If I were you, I wouldn’t get a Shaolin Wah Nam tattoo just yet.[/QUOTE]

It’s ok, I know I’m not going to change your view about my school, its no biggie.

However a couple points, there is a wide range of opinion in Wahnam about how the horse stance can be practiced, personally I practice it a fair bit lower than my Sisook Leo in that vid you linked, who’s horse stance is closer to that of GM Lam Sai Wing. Mine is not quite parallel, but with a slight pyramid shape like in a picture below of another Sisook.

vs

Neither is wrong, and both have wonderful benefits within the spectrum of flow and consolidation respectively.

So…you simply asked an obnoxious question, I understand now. Nothing was really accomplished.

My schools shaolin lineage is quite direct I assure you. Not that it matters to anyone. :slight_smile:

Wanna keep going? This is entertaining for sure.

[QUOTE=Dragonzbane76;1262133]the title of the thread is “who switched from external to internal martial arts and why?” Not hey your teacher is a joke blah blah blah…you suck type of things. I didn’t come on this thread to hear about what ever disagreement you 2 have and honestly I don’t care what disagreement there. If you wanna air it, IM them. Airing it does not mean I want to sort through your guys crap to actually read what someone has to say about the actual topic.[/QUOTE]

My apologies, I was simply defending my training from a public attack.

But on-topic:

My reason is the same as before, I switched to internal martial arts because muay thai even though its a great system that quickly produces combat efficiency wasn’t giving me what I was looking for in terms of a holistic development of my body, and mind. Nowadays I only use it if training partners want to practice against it. I still practice it just enough to keep the techniques and footwork fresh.

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40

Well, I think part of the sub-text of this thread, as John Wang has already pointed out, is that people take up ‘styles’ or ‘switch styles’ because they buy into the claims made by particular groups. Let’s face it - no one ‘switches’ to a so called ‘internal’ style because that style has proven its ability across a wide range of martial arts combat platforms. Except for the most exceptional cases, other reasons are always more important - including the sales tactics of the teacher or group.

hey if you have an issue with someone IM them. You might say “sub-text” but honestly it was a b!tchfest.