Whats your goal?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
41

Isn’t the first step toward being a good fighter is being healthy or having a healthy body? What good is Kung Fu or any art if it actually speed up your way to the grave.

Is there any real evidence that WC extends the lifespan, or active lifespan? It seems to me that people like WSL and Jerry McKinley, and perhaps YM, died before their time, may they RIP. Whereas Helio Gracie, of the creatine-guzzling, cardio-blasting BJJ system, is still kicking at 90+.

Personally, I think MA training of any type has little impact on longevity if one leads an otherwise healthy lifestyle.

Some say that WC is bad for the knees in the long term, though I’ve seen little evidence of this in TWC and certainly haven’t experienced it myself after 15 years. Ive heard of knee injuries amongst my fellow students by misadventure while training, but not one from cumulative effects of standing in the TWC neutral stance.

As for Xingyi, the academy I trained at did cardio ALL THE TIME, including running round two city blocks three times in bare feet in the middle of every class. We also did a 5 element Taoist yoga and taiji. I don’t do Xingyi or the rest anymore; the teacher was a doctor of TCM and chiropractor so I had a lot of insights into the relationships between Xingyi and acupuncture; however the acupuncture treatments I had for various ailments had no effect on me (though the chiropractic was very helpful). He also had issues related to influence and control, and general use of alleged arcane Oriental mysticism and alchemy, and related bllsht, which I eventually grew far beyond totally sick of and led to me quitting all MA for four years.

So, from my empirical experience, TCM doesn’t work that well, and thus the xingyi based on it is unlikely to either, from a health POV at least. YMMV.

No doubt my extreme skepticism related to some of the more hyperbolic claims regarding the impact of TCMA training on health is related to my bad experiences at the hand of this particular instructor, but so far I’ve seen very little since that would change my mind.

That said, this guy was no mouth boxer. He was VERY powerful and skilled. An enormously formidable fighter, just with a personality that made him toxic as a teacher.

Xingyi is an internal system, but it is NOT a soft system like taiji is allegedly supposed to be. It’s as hard as a fist of diamond, according to the aforementioned instructor.

I was very fit and healthy then (I stopped Xingyi 20 years ago); but I’m still very fit and healthy now for a 50 year old.

They pump the iron and that is indeed one form of strength/fitness but exactly the opposite of what we want.

Er, the opposite of what YOU want, and I’m not sure the opposition is as diametrical as you suggest.

My Sifu both pumps iron and trains cardio several times a week. He’s as good as anyone I’ve ever seen in both the hard and soft aspects of MA (and WC is not JUST about softness, nor is taiji). My first instructor also advocated weight training and cardio, though not to the same degree. Proper weight training can and does reduce susceptibility to injury and the muscle degradation related to aging. I hgave it up for a couple of years to do bodyweight exercises instead; my return to the iron mad a nagging shoulder twinge I’d had for years effectively disappear.

I’m a postmodernist. Even if you tell me you’ve got the perfect system that does everything, I’m still going to be looking at what everyone else is doing and probably appropriating some of it. Even if just to avoid boredom.

42

Hi Jim!

I both agree and disagree! :slight_smile: I think training cardio is important, but that one shouldn’t be counting on their WCK sessions to do it! Part of cardio fitness is having a good “cardiac reserve” function. By conditioning the heart with cardio exercise, the pulse will be lower at rest because the heart is stronger and pumping more efficiently. Therefore it does not need to beat as much. The more conditioned the heart is, more effort is needed to raise the heart rate. WCK is indeed a method that emphasizes relaxation and efficient movement. So it shouldn’t be bumping the heart rate up into a cardio training range unless you are doing some pretty heavy sparring or drilling. So the cardio training should be done independently of and outside of the WCK work-out. But the “stillness” factor of WCK will be enhanced by the cardio training because the heart will be stronger and you are much less likely to “bump” the heart rate and compromise you “stillness” and “softness” as you do your WCK. Even a fight that lasts only seconds can really throw the heart rate up due to a big shot of adrenaline. Having a good cardiac reserve from cardio training means that it won’t shoot up as high or be as disruptive. So IMHO, good cardiac conditioning can only enhance the “Rou Jing” aspect of our WCK. But WCK training alone will not lead to good cardiac conditioning.

Keith

43

Hey guys!

Quickly as I am heading out of town!

By conditioning the heart with cardio exercise, the pulse will be lower at rest because the heart is stronger and pumping more efficiently.

This is 100% accurate and no denying its benefits but is it just as good for you when you are young as when you get older? Some studies say it isn’t.

Even a fight that lasts only seconds can really throw the heart rate up due to a big shot of adrenaline.

Booom! This is exactly what we want to avoid. This is what will make the difference.

Gotta run!

Will talk more on Monday!

Regards,

44

Some free time!

The original point of the thread was to discuss what our goals were and compare it to other types of arts that have a different type of goal. Each has their own place and way. Also, what you need to put into it to get the type of results your need or for a fair comparison to another method.

There are arts that require multiple round fighting and certianly intense cardio is a requirement. Sure! Cardio strengthens and then during the down period alows it to function at a more productive rate. Yet. There is a level of fitness that one need to maintain with that certain fighting method.

Then there are the arts that do not require that. They utilize the strength of the art in a different way that it gives your thru its sets, training, structure, breathing, etc.. Those are the arts that typically have Rou & Stillness as core component. Keep in mind many of those things are also found in the other arts but just a different approach with certain aspects make the difference! This is a different type of approach that functions more on holistic training where the Kung Fu works the body in harmony by externally training the tendons/sinews etc. and internally training the breath. Nothing better but different.

I think Dave C makes and excellent point:

if your wing chun is dependent on a high state of cardio then you are not doing Yip Man wing chun.
Dave c

But I would remove Yip Man’s name and replace it with Rou Jing/stillness based arts. Is Wing Chun a Rou/Stillness based art? Now thats another debate! :slight_smile: I would be curious to here some opinions from the Leung Sheung/Ken Chung group on this topic.

Hey! Gotta run!

Have a good weekend!

:slight_smile:

45

Next week I will post some info. on this topic.

:stuck_out_tongue:

46

The original point of the thread was to discuss what our goals were and compare it to other types of arts that have a different type of goal.

You seem to be postulating that as Wing Chun practitioners, we have or should have some sort of sert of collective goals, which you seem to think were predefined, perhaps by a set of people who died a long time ago.

I though point of the thread was to discuss our individual goals. It should be apparent to you by now that there is a broad spectrum of goals in WC, and, thankfully, a fair absence of groupthink.

Also, there is plenty of sharing of some of our goals with those of other arts. WC isn’t perhaps quite as special or unique as some think it to be.

This is 100% accurate and no denying its benefits but is it just as good for you when you are young as when you get older? Some studies say it isn’t.

And others say it does. Look hard enough, you’ll find studies to support any viewpoint. I’ll take Dr Keith’s opinion on this one, thanks.

47

Jim,

I can’t sight any studies, but my personal experience says that training cardio is even more important as you get older. You may need to make some adjustments for age, for example recovery times can be longer, but overall fitness pays higher dividends in the later stages of the game of life, IMO.

48

Hello all,

You seem to be postulating that as Wing Chun practitioners, we have or should have some sort of sert of collective goals, which you seem to think were predefined, perhaps by a set of people who died a long time ago.

Rou Jing/Stillness art or not? If we are then some stuff is comes along with it. If you believe we do not fall into that category then thats a different story.

I though point of the thread was to discuss our individual goals. It should be apparent to you by now that there is a broad spectrum of goals in WC, and, thankfully, a fair absence of groupthink.

Yes! Our goals and what it is need to make a fair comparison. What it takes for each art to function . Too much using of the UFC type stuff as the standard level of a So-Called good fighter which is funny IMHO. I listed out some of what most need to function at that level and the time it takes to be a pro and fight at that level.

Yes! their is a broad spectrum of goals in all activities of life. With that in mind it we must make fair judgement when making comparison wouldn’t you say? Certainly the guy who has 4-5 hours a week for training will not be a Rickson.

Also, there is plenty of sharing of some of our goals with those of other arts. WC isn’t perhaps quite as special or unique as some think it to be.

No doubt. Lots of stuff carry over and nothing is unique. We have to come from somewhere and we have to fall into some sort of category in Martial Art. All stuff will have their own way or flavor but the human body gets trained on only a limited ways in Martial Art. Rou Jing would be soft and not require cardio to function during combat.

And others say it does. Look hard enough, you’ll find studies to support any viewpoint. I’ll take Dr Keith’s opinion on this one, thanks.

Fair enough! Most doctors have similar thoughts as Keith. My training partner is a doctor. We have discussed this in length. He also feels there is nothing wrong with cardio as it strengthens and allows to function better but since he is also a Chi Kung practitioner he understands there is a difference with Rou Jing based arts. When we are young we do all sorts of cardio stuff and strengthen. That 45 minute pump up the heart rate is great and the heart gets stronger. Now, take the person who is getting a bit older. Going to the gym 2-3 days per week and shocking your internal system/heart may not be as easy on your system as it was when you were younger. Its the not so frequent stress like this that sometimes causes problems.

I will post some stuff below from one of China’s top fighter (Wang Xiang Zhai) and promoters of holistic health. Here is a man who fought anyone who wanted to walk thru his doors. So, his skill was not for show but for reality. I think he give some important thoughts!

See ya,

49

Wang Xiang Zhai’s Interview (portion)

Basic training in daily life, in order to gain results from training all the time, while walking, standing, sitting,and reclining, one must start from the training of Jam Jong.

“Note the similar idea as WCK SLT”

Arange the posture of the whole body properly, keep the body upright, have no thoughts, strengthen the nerves in “stillness”, adjust the breath, warm up and nurish the muscles, let every cell activate naturally. The strength comes from “inside” and reaches the the outside smoothly in the whole body. Thus, one does not train the bones and the muscles, yet they get trained by themselves, one does not nourish the nerves but they get nourished by themselves, one should especially experience and opbserve their barely perceptible movement and activity. When on has done it for long enough time, one will know that standing brings many inexhaustible wonders. One who want to achive wonders in his boxing skills, should first dedicate his time to Jam Jong.

More info.:

Thje movements of an ordinary person cannot have strength without constant unilateral tension that disturbs the blood circulation. Every kind of strength based on constant unilateral tension is stiff and inharmonious, and besides that, harmful to health! Having strength without constant unilateral tension is namely having strength without using strength, and when using it, one gains strength. That is what the natural instinctive strength is like.

More info..

As for the conservative people who cannot diferentiate between right and wrong, I have not choice but to let them have their own way. Even if one can understand, it is still not easy to put it into practice, and it is even more difficult for those who cannot differentiate between right or wrong at all. However, the Ordinary Boxers still take the exercising of the body as the Catchword and stop talking about combat. Watching that, one can also know that the way of combat, compared to health preservation, is a very trifling thing. The way of health preservation relies on concentrating one’s spirit and nourishing one’s nature. The mind becomes empty and unified; that is called the art of one’s Body & Mind, Life & Nature. With this movement and that posturem springing forward and jumping backward, it is really difficult to even dream about entering the gate of health preservation. In fact, health preservation is simple and easy. True human nature loves naturalness and unrestricted free movement, the whole offshoot of the natural instincts ar the basic of that. Every morning in the fresh air, without any method, just let the joints of the whole body be slightly bent, consider the sky, move slowly and freely, experience and observe the intestinal Chi and the flow of blood. At the same time, intuitively percieve the external void and nimble opposing strength. This is called the spirit resembles as if it was swimming. The spirit and the body are comfortable and natural, not only free and unrestricted, but also gradually realising the echo of nature. After a long time of training, the instincts unveil and the rays of the spirit will shine, one will have gained the basis of combat without having sought them. If one always sticks to mechanical moevements, plays around with a staff and performs with a spear seaking beauty, taking that as the glory of being good in martial arts, then one does not know that if a man of insights sees that, he will feel sick for ten days. That is terrible, such a person cannot comprehend Boxing For Life!

50

Hey guys,

Some more stuff for ya!

After a good workout do you typically feel refreshed for a bit and then tired or do you just feel refreshed to the point your work out energized you?

I used to do loads of cardio stuff when I was doing BJJ. BJJ is an awesome work out. I would take Glutamine to speed up the process of recovery as the hard work out burns certain things in your body. With that in mind, my good friend and I were talking about this last night and here is his POV:

I’ve done a bit of study of this a few years back from a western POV
and Eastern.

Western exercise wears the body down, also, western Doc’s are turning away
from the ‘No pain, no gain’ of the 80’s to the low impact cardio as
superior. The reason being is that they found out that it is the hormones
that extend life and by excessive hard exercise depletes these whereas low
impact aerobic and anaroebic doesn’t. Also, eastern views caught this 3000
years ago in the Yellow Emperor’s internal classic. A basic overview of this
is that by opening the channels and breathing with the diaphragm (abdominal
breathing - as in hei gung / qigong) we rest and exercise at the same time
giving a feeling of exhiliration at the end rather than a worn out feeling.

Ironically, fast exercise and especially at the start burns good fuel like
sugar of the body and ‘fires the glands’ (hormones) and depletes them -
ironically then the body then craves sugar and most eat fast fixes of bad
carbs and ironically become a slave to yo yo weight problems and dieting -
low impact and good diet lead to permanent loss of weight and health. The
breathing performed at low impact is superior as the lungs work at optimun
rate due to the ‘relaxed’ nature of the body and ironically gain better
endurance and breath control - see the similarity to qigong here!!! For
years I fought weight and trained ‘hard’ and couldn’t understand why - bad
exercise leads to bad eating cravings etc, now I know after 20 years my
mistake!!!

Anyway, the golden rules are ‘don’t fire the glands’ and ‘don’t raise the
heartbeat too much’.

Any thoughts Kieth?

51

After a good workout do you typically feel refreshed for a bit and then tired or do you just feel refreshed to the point your work out energized you?

False dichotomy. I usually feel tired first, but later refreshed. Working out certainly helps me sleep soundly.

My metabolism must be less sensitive than yours. Helio’s 92 and recently participated in teaching on the latest BJJ cruise from Cali with Rorion, Kira, Ryron et al. Hows Wang Xiang Zhai doing these days?

I used to do loads of cardio stuff when I was doing BJJ. BJJ is an awesome work out. I would take Glutamine to speed up the process of recovery as the hard work out burns certain things in your body.

Both BJJ and WC are about conditioning, but BJJ, like WC, is about intelligent use of technique first and foremost.

You should read up on the life of Carlos Gracie snr., he was quite a spiritual man in later life and developed a complex system of diet and health management, arguably equal to that of any WC ancestor or modern practitioner. He and Helio would seem to be at least as qualified on related subjects, and as successful fighters, as Wang Xiang Zhai.

BJJ is no straw man, so stop and reverse on that track right now if you want a credible discussion.

With that in mind, my good friend and I were talking about this last night and here is his POV:

And your “good friend”'s qualifications are… ?

I’ve done a bit of study of this a few years back from a western POV
and Eastern.

Haven’t we all … yawn I’ve got a fairly lengthy set of notes in my “TCM Info” link in my .sig, FWIW. I’m not a nobel laureate, but I’ve been around the block.

52

Hello,

False dichotomy.

Not IMO. Its a pretty straight forward question regarding this topic.

I usually feel tired first, but later refreshed. Working out certainly helps me sleep soundly.

Ok. Thats what I thought. Its the same for all on that sort of training regime. A depletion before all the juices build back. Nothing wrong with that as it is the norm for that sort of training. Its just the opposite for Rou Jing.

My metabolism must be less sensitive than yours. Helio’s 92 and recently participated in teaching on the latest BJJ cruise from Cali with Rorion, Kira, Ryron et al. Hows Wang Xiang Zhai doing these days?

Wang Xiang Zhai died years ago. I think he was closer to Yip Man’s age. Good for Helio! He’s definetely a great martial artist. Trained many greats! Funny but most of the people I have spoken with years ago when I did BJJ told me his physical health is not so good. His joints & body are in pain. Actually, this is the case for most Jiu Jitsu people. The art really takes a toll on the body. But! Its good to hear he is doing well!

Both BJJ and WC are about conditioning, but BJJ, like WC, is about intelligent use of technique first and foremost.

You are correct. I totally agree with you but the conditioning IMO is just different. If you believe WC is Rou Jing. If not, then I am sure they are similar in that way also for you.

You should read up on the life of Carlos Gracie snr., he was quite a spiritual man in later life and developed a complex system of diet and health management, arguably equal to that of any WC ancestor or modern practitioner. He and Helio would seem to be at least as qualified on related subjects, and as successful fighters, as Wang Xiang Zhai.

Will check it out! They are great martialists and it will be good to read there thoughts!

BJJ is no straw man, so stop and reverse on that track right now if you want a credible discussion.

My discussion is about Cardio and Rou Jing at this point in the thread. I am not talking about anything else! Arts that are cardio based versus arts that are Rou Jing based. Plus! I happen to love BJJ. I think they are the WCK of the Ground! Modern art, Softer version compared to its ancestors, Grappling is like Chi Sao on the ground!

And your “good friend”'s qualifications are… ?

Please tell me if there was something he wrote that was wrong or not?

Western exercise wears the body down, also, western Doc’s are turning away
from the ‘No pain, no gain’ of the 80’s to the low impact cardio as
superior. The reason being is that they found out that it is the hormones
that extend life and by excessive hard exercise depletes these whereas low
impact aerobic and anaroebic doesn’t. Also, eastern views caught this 3000
years ago in the Yellow Emperor’s internal classic. A basic overview of this
is that by opening the channels and breathing with the diaphragm (abdominal
breathing - as in hei gung / qigong) we rest and exercise at the same time
giving a feeling of exhiliration at the end rather than a worn out feeling.

Ironically, fast exercise and especially at the start burns good fuel like
sugar of the body and ‘fires the glands’ (hormones) and depletes them -
ironically then the body then craves sugar and most eat fast fixes of bad
carbs and ironically become a slave to yo yo weight problems and dieting -
low impact and good diet lead to permanent loss of weight and health. The
breathing performed at low impact is superior as the lungs work at optimun
rate due to the ‘relaxed’ nature of the body and ironically gain better
endurance and breath control - see the similarity to qigong here!!! For
years I fought weight and trained ‘hard’ and couldn’t understand why - bad
exercise leads to bad eating cravings etc, now I know after 20 years my
mistake!!!

Anyway, the golden rules are ‘don’t fire the glands’ and ‘don’t raise the
heartbeat too much’.

Haven’t we all … yawn I’ve got a fairly lengthy set of notes in my “TCM Info” link in my .sig, FWIW. I’m not a nobel laureate, but I’ve been around the block.

Cool. Please share some of your research and we can compare. I think by now you know my feelings.

53

Actually, this is the case for most Jiu Jitsu people.

LOL, sure, just like most WC practitioners have bad knees. And of course at this point of the thread you are only talking about Rou Jing and cardio :stuck_out_tongue:

My discussion is about Cardio and Rou Jing at this point in the thread. I am not talking about anything else!

You were talking about BJJ! Otherwise I wouldn’t have responded that way!

Plus! I happen to love BJJ. I think they are the WCK of the Ground! Modern art, Softer version compared to its ancestors, Grappling is like Chi Sao on the ground!

And proper BJJ, which you weren’t talking about, should be pretty close to what you so far have defined a Rou Jing art to be.

Please tell me if there was something he wrote that was wrong or not?

I guess he’s another guy with an opinion, just like you and me, his opinions worth no more and no less. You gave me the expectation that you thought his opinion was worth something more, and I asked “how so exactly”?

For years I fought weight and trained ‘hard’ and couldn’t understand why - bad
exercise leads to bad eating cravings etc, now I know after 20 years my
mistake!!!

Like I said, your metabolism must be different from mine. I’ve been around the same weight (77kg) and low body fat for the last 20 years. I have a six pack at age 50. I do regular cardio, as well other exercise modalities I think you’d be less horrified by. I’ve never had such cravings. Maybe it’s not the program, or not just the program?

Cool. Please share some of your research and we can compare.

You couldn’t find the link in my .sig? It took me more than a few days of hard work to put that together from handwritten notes I took in the 80’s. And BTW, I have read the Yellow Emperor’s classic, almost ad nauseam, when I gave a lot more credence to TCM than I do now.

54

Hey Jim!

I’ve done a bit of study of this a few years back from a western POV
and Eastern.

—I haven’t looked into this comparison specifically, so my comments will just be drawing on my general fund of knowledge and background.

Western exercise wears the body down,

—Isn’t exercise just exercise? How can it have an ethnicity?

also, western Doc’s are turning away from the ‘No pain, no gain’ of the 80’s to the low impact cardio as superior.

—This is true. But the main reason is that it was found that the “high impact” stuff was hard on the joints. That’s why everyone does “low impact” aerobics now. They didn’t change the intensity of the exercise, only the intensity of the impact on the joints and rest of the body.

The reason being is that they found out that it is the hormones
that extend life and by excessive hard exercise depletes these whereas low
impact aerobic and anaroebic doesn’t.

—I’d like to see exactly what that study was referring too. Its too easy to make generalizations based on studies that were never intended by the original authors. But like most things, its all relative. How do you define “excessive hard exercise”? Its true that cardio conditioning can have diminishing returns at some point. You don’t have to have a resting heart rate of 40 and be able to compete in the Tour de France to be healthy. Even patients that have had heart attacks go through a “cardiac rehab” program that includes progressive cardio conditioning.

A basic overview of this
is that by opening the channels and breathing with the diaphragm (abdominal
breathing - as in hei gung / qigong) we rest and exercise at the same time
giving a feeling of exhiliration at the end rather than a worn out feeling.

—Lots of western athletes have learned to be “abdominal breathers” as well.

Ironically, fast exercise and especially at the start burns good fuel like
sugar of the body and ‘fires the glands’ (hormones) and depletes them -
ironically then the body then craves sugar and most eat fast fixes of bad
carbs and ironically become a slave to yo yo weight problems and dieting -

—Is that due to the exercise program, or to the person’s poor eating habits? In general, exercise physiology teaches that there is a progression in how the body uses stored fuel. You begin by using anaerobic metabolism and burning the readily available fuel…sugars…only after a certain point in exercise duration and intensity do you begin to use aerobic metabolism and begin to burn other fuel sources like fat.

low impact and good diet lead to permanent loss of weight and health. The
breathing performed at low impact is superior as the lungs work at optimun
rate due to the ‘relaxed’ nature of the body and ironically gain better
endurance and breath control - see the similarity to qigong here!!!

—Again, from a western standpoint the “low impact” is still cardio conditioning. “Low impact” does not necessarily mean “low intensity.” From a physiology point of view, unless you are reaching a “training range” of heart rate and intensity you will not be getting a cardio conditioning or fat burning (weight loss) benefit. Since physiology knows no ethnicity…

For years I fought weight and trained ‘hard’ and couldn’t understand why - bad
exercise leads to bad eating cravings etc, now I know after 20 years my
mistake!!!

—Bad eating habits, regardless of what kind of exercise you are doing, makes it hard to control ones weight. I would be willing to bet diet was a bigger factor for your friend than the type of exercise he was doing.

Anyway, the golden rules are ‘don’t fire the glands’ and ‘don’t raise the
heartbeat too much’.

—I’m not sure what “don’t fire the glands” means, but “don’t raise the heartbeat too much” is a pretty good rule. Again, its all relative. That’s why good cardio conditioning includes training that follows a percentage of the “target heart rate”…which is adjusted for age.

—Now don’t get me wrong. I still agree with the idea that when doing WCK one shouldn’t be jumping around and making it an intense athletic activity. It should stay calm and relaxed. But I still think that good cardio conditioning can only enhance one’s ability to stay relaxed, not get out of breath, and not bump the heart rate way up when doing your WCK. A basic level of cardio conditioning (not taken to excess) can only enhance your health and longevity.

Keith

55

A-lich,

LOL, sure, just like most WC practitioners have bad knees.

Yup! That should tell you something!

You were talking about BJJ! Otherwise I wouldn’t have responded that way!

Cardio related arts and since BJJ is one of them then sure I included them. The same applies for M Thai and other cardio related arts.

And proper BJJ, which you weren’t talking about, should be pretty close to what you so far have defined a Rou Jing art to be.

Ok! So, why not take two months off from your regular cardio training and then get on the matt and see if that sort of training is not essential to that art functioning or not.

I guess he’s another guy with an opinion, just like you and me, his opinions worth no more and no less. You gave me the expectation that you thought his opinion was worth something more, and I asked “how so exactly”?

I feel its pretty straight forward info as is Wang;s when it comes to this debate.

Quote:
For years I fought weight and trained ‘hard’ and couldn’t understand why - bad
exercise leads to bad eating cravings etc, now I know after 20 years my
mistake!!!

Like I said, your metabolism must be different from mine. I’ve been around the same weight (77kg) and low body fat for the last 20 years. I have a six pack at age 50. I do regular cardio, as well other exercise modalities I think you’d be less horrified by. I’ve never had such cravings. Maybe it’s not the program, or not just the program?

Not me my man! I am only 5’ 5" tall and an average weight of 140! That was him talking! :slight_smile: I am just a little guy!

You couldn’t find the link in my .sig? It took me more than a few days of hard work to put that together from handwritten notes I took in the 80’s. And BTW, I have read the Yellow Emperor’s classic, almost ad nauseam, when I gave a lot more credence to TCM than I do now.

Okeydokey. Hey! Gotta run! Working out of town and only have time for one more reply!

Thanks for the chat!

56

Kieth,

—I haven’t looked into this comparison specifically, so my comments will just be drawing on my general fund of knowledge and background.

No problem.

—Isn’t exercise just exercise? How can it have an ethnicity?

Common stuff for common comparison. Chi Gung type stuff versus other type stuff. Certainly Chi Gung type stuff is not as common in the west where as you can go to most parks in China and see hundreds of people in the a.m. practicing.

—This is true. But the main reason is that it was found that the “high impact” stuff was hard on the joints. That’s why everyone does “low impact” aerobics now. They didn’t change the intensity of the exercise, only the intensity of the impact on the joints and rest of the body.

Ok. What type of impact would you consider UFC fighting to be? What type of impact would you consider WC fighting to be?

—I’d like to see exactly what that study was referring too. Its too easy to make generalizations based on studies that were never intended by the original authors. But like most things, its all relative. How do you define “excessive hard exercise”? Its true that cardio conditioning can have diminishing returns at some point. You don’t have to have a resting heart rate of 40 and be able to compete in the Tour de France to be healthy. Even patients that have had heart attacks go through a “cardiac rehab” program that includes progressive cardio conditioning.

E-mail Rob!

—Lots of western athletes have learned to be “abdominal breathers” as well.

I think we know why! hehehe

—Is that due to the exercise program, or to the person’s poor eating habits? In general, exercise physiology teaches that there is a progression in how the body uses stored fuel. You begin by using anaerobic metabolism and burning the readily available fuel…sugars…only after a certain point in exercise duration and intensity do you begin to use aerobic metabolism and begin to burn other fuel sources like fat.

Ok. Rou Jing training doesn’t burn it nurishes! Hence the common name: Yang Sheng! Life Nurishing.

—Again, from a western standpoint the “low impact” is still cardio conditioning. “Low impact” does not necessarily mean “low intensity.” From a physiology point of view, unless you are reaching a “training range” of heart rate and intensity you will not be getting a cardio conditioning or fat burning (weight loss) benefit. Since physiology knows no ethnicity…

What type of impact do you consider Muay Thai and what type of impact do you consider Yi Chuan?

—I’m not sure what “don’t fire the glands” means, but “don’t raise the heartbeat too much” is a pretty good rule. Again, its all relative. That’s why good cardio conditioning includes training that follows a percentage of the “target heart rate”…which is adjusted for age.

True. Do you feel a true Rou Jing art needs Cardio to function? Do you consider WCK a Rou Jing art? Do we externally train the tendons/sinews etc and internally train the breath. Its a holistic platform IMO. Whats your thoughts on Wang Xiang Zhai’s info that I posted?

—Now don’t get me wrong. I still agree with the idea that when doing WCK one shouldn’t be jumping around and making it an intense athletic activity. It should stay calm and relaxed.

Yup.

But I still think that good cardio conditioning can only enhance one’s ability to stay relaxed, not get out of breath, and not bump the heart rate way up when doing your WCK. A basic level of cardio conditioning (not taken to excess) can only enhance your health and longevity.

No arguments on that but if you are doing a holistic art then do you feel its needed?

Nobody can argue of its benefits if trained right but it just seems that without it many are not getting the nurishment for the body (and need it to maketheir art function) that the art IMO should be giving them.

If! Of course its a Rou Jing art. That really is the big question!

Guys!

Off to work out of town again! Uggggggggg!

See ya,

57

Yup! That should tell you something!

Yup! It tells me that too many people make up stuff, or imply statistical bases from anecdotes, about other arts in attempts to support their arguments.

Ok! So, why not take two months off from your regular cardio training and then get on the matt and see if that sort of training is not essential to that art functioning or not.

I did that last year after ankle and knee injuries (ankle was a reclessly applied heel hook, knee had nothing to do with BJJ or WC) stopped me from doing my regular cardio. My ability to handle younger fitter less skilled guys, and to keep purple belts and advanced blues off of me, decreased sharply. Same with my standup training, including WC. Back on the Tabata intervals and sprints, and the iron, suddenly I’m handling the same guys the way I used to.

Cardio isn’t essential, but it sure helps. Training isn’t just about skill development, it is also about the tempering and transformation of the athlete. If skill is equivalent, differentials in endurance and/or strength will usually tip the balance.

If you’re saying an art is only Rou Jing if you can vanquish stronger resisting opponents without a reserve of cardio or elevating your heart rate, I say there’s no such art on the planet, or in the universe, and if it’s worked that way for you you need to find some tougher training partners.

What type of impact would you consider WC fighting to be?

I’ve got bruises, black eyes, sprains and cracked ribs from both types of training. Can’t see the distinction myself, other than “UFC fighters” can handle themselves in the clinch and on the ground, and, unlike “WC fighters” they can with skill subdue opponents or render them unconscious without having to inflict trauma on them.

Not me my man! I am only 5’ 5" tall and an average weight of 140! That was him talking! :slight_smile: I am just a little guy!

So his experience is not applicable to you either. I have to say I haven’t seen too many famous long-distance runners who carry many extra pounds, or who ballooned out after retiring from athletics, either.

The Xingyi instructor I discussed earlier, who had formal acupuncture, Xingyi/Bagua and Taiji qualifications from HK and Taiwan, told me that “slow” and “soft” exercise like taiji and qigong performed exclusively has inherent dangers. It allegedly increases the venous circulation, i.e. the flow of blood back to the heart. According to him, too much of this can lead to pooling of blood in the extremities, leading to increased risk of blood clots, embolisms, etc. and it must be balanced with more vigorous exercise to flush and clear the system.

Xingyi, which is neither a slow or soft system, was allegedly much more precise and powerful than taiji for balancing the organ energies in the system.

Then again, this guy was a liar and a manipulator, and the benefits or otherwise of TCM remain a topic of hot debate. My own experiences with acupuncture, etc. to treat various ailments have been quite disappointing and a waste of time, though my diploma in oriental massage proved an interesting ice breaker and social lubricant with women in my younger days, and my wife still likes it. But other than that…

58

Hey Jim!

—Isn’t exercise just exercise? How can it have an ethnicity?
Common stuff for common comparison. Chi Gung type stuff versus other type stuff. Certainly Chi Gung type stuff is not as common in the west where as you can go to most parks in China and see hundreds of people in the a.m. practicing.

—OK. Just doesn’t seem like a good classification for generalizing things to me. You have plenty of “eastern” exercise in the form of Tae Kwon Do, Shaolin Kung Fu, Modern Wu Shu, etc that is just as athletic and intense as any “western” exercise.

Ok. What type of impact would you consider UFC fighting to be? What type of impact would you consider WC fighting to be?

—I think you’re mixing apples and oranges here. We started out talking about cardio conditioning and you brought up high impact vs. low impact programs. I noted that “low impact” referred to less impact on the joints…its not “bouncing” and “jumping around” as much as high impact. And that it doesn’t necessarily imply less intensity, just less impact on the ground. What does that have to do with martial arts?

E-mail Rob!

—You may have to tell me off-line about this one! Did Rob have a bad experience?

Ok. Rou Jing training doesn’t burn it nurishes! Hence the common name: Yang Sheng! Life Nurishing.

—Ok. But does it build up and condition at the same time? Maybe both approaches to training are warranted? It would be interesting to see a study of elderly chinese that have spent decades doing their Tai Chi in the park and nothing else. I’d like to know their blood pressure, cholesterol levels, lipid levels, etc as compared to an age matched group from the west that spent time going to the pool or doing an aerobic walking program instead. Then we could compare apples to apples. :slight_smile:

What type of impact do you consider Muay Thai and what type of impact do you consider Yi Chuan?

—Again, comparing apples to oranges. The terms “low impact” and “high impact” as applied to cardio conditioning programs do not carry over well to make good comparisons between martial arts.

True. Do you feel a true Rou Jing art needs Cardio to function?

—Some cardio? Yes. Peak cardio like required for more “athletic” styles? No. Do you think that someone that gets out of breath just going up one flight of stairs is going to be able to do a “true Rou Jing art” with peak performance?

Do you consider WCK a Rou Jing art?

—Depends on who is doing it! :smiley: The way I want to do it and develop it…yes!

Do we externally train the tendons/sinews etc and internally train the breath. Its a holistic platform IMO. Whats your thoughts on Wang Xiang Zhai’s info that I posted?

—Its good stuff! But we have to keep in mind that what is passed down as lore in martial arts circles doesn’t always jive well with what we know of established physiology. So while I can see taking it to heart and using what he says as a guideline, I wouldn’t go throwing out what I know of anatomy and physiology. :slight_smile:

No arguments on that but if you are doing a holistic art then do you feel its needed?

—If you are truly doing a holistic art, wouldn’t it already be included?

Nobody can argue of its benefits if trained right but it just seems that without it many are not getting the nurishment for the body (and need it to maketheir art function) that the art IMO should be giving them.

—This may very well be true!

Keith