WC Goal?
To develop the right wu sao and timing to deal with Cerebrus at the crossing or Yama’s black dog at the river on the way home..
[A decade later, I started “jonesin’” for the martial arts drug again. I stumbled across 45 E. Broadway while checking out some other places. Moy Yat gave me the once over. He then invited me to watch his class (I later found out that was somewhat unusual for him). He didn’t seem to be paying a lot of attention to the students - certainly not the typical “drill sargent style, hovering hawk” classes I was usually finding elsewhere. Afterward, he told me to go check out the other places and said goodbye. No salespitch, nothing. He hadn’t even mentioned how much he charged in that first meeting. Just five sentences I’ll never forget: “I don’t know what you’re looking for. But if you want to learn Ving Tsun, you will. If you want to learn Ving Tsun from me, I’ll try to teach you. Maybe it doesn’t work out that way. You never know.”
Tom, interesting story. Duncan Leung teaching methods has change over the years but his sale pitch is the same. He is definitely not in it for the $$$. Back in the day, Sibak Duncan Leung would conduct class like the old man (yip man). For better or worst, this was how things were done back in HK. He would be more hands on if you were talented, proactive, and or shown some fighting spirit. You didnt mentioned any names, but your quote from this wing chun teacher sounds like Duncan Leung.
with one’s mind grasping one’s own though, what is not illusive becomes illusive.
your suffering is forsure since you love to graps.
see, there is different between lotus from the mud and you dive right into mud.
lotus stays clean but no guarentee about you not get stick and stuck in the mud while diving into the mud. hehehehe that is Zen.
your suffering is forsure since you love to graps.
I don’t know how to graps, so I don’t know that I’d love it. :rolleyes:
Patronising would also lead to suffering, I’d imagine.
HI Jim,
For those of us that have to work 40 hours a week and family responsibilities I truly believe that wing chun is the most efficient means of self defense. I also practice wing chun because unlike most martial arts there is not a direct correlation between conditioning and fighting ability. For the street as opposed to the ring wing chun is the best form of self defense for the average person that doesnt have 20 hrs a week to train.
Dave c
Lots of people have what they call “goals” – that doesn’t make them realistic or attainable. Nor does it mean that they are necessarily doing those things that will produce the results they’re after. IME a lot of the “marketing” of WCK is directed at folks with those unrealistic or unattainable goals, and then with cooperative practice they are sold that they are achieving their goals.
Folks that think they can fight well (using WCK or anything for that matter) without good cardio or conditioning are living in a fantasy world – but there will always be some willing to sell them that fantasy. Folks that think cardio or being in good condition is only for the young are also living in an unhealthy world. Folks that think WCK is for self-defense or that WCK is a good form of self-defense don’t understand self-defense. Folks that think they will be able to defeat larger, faster, stronger folks without becoming highly skilled themselves are living in a fantasy world. Folks that think they can become highly skilled without good cardio, without good conditioning, without doing a great deal of fighting, are living in a fantasy world. There is a lot of fantasy surrounding WCK.
The real question is do you have realistic goals (and are you taking realistic steps to reach those goals) or do you have unrealistic fantasies/dreams? If you are an out-of-shape, out-of-condition, WCK “practitioner”; if you’re someone that doesn’t fight as part of your training; if you are into role-playing, practicing hei gung, using dim mak, practicing iron palm, developing your internal power, etc.; and so on; then you don’t have goals, only fantasies.
BTW, gangersterfist – you better have good cardio for that goal! 
Terence if your wing chun is dependent on a high state of cardio then you are not doing Yip Man wing chun.
Dave c
don’t forget to break the opium pipe out ! keep it traditional
Drops pipe
You mean we don’t have to smoke this stuff?
hope you didn’t burn a whole in your silk PJ’s or pretty sash :eek:
anyway back to the regular scheduled program [ construction of the living robot blue print 1900 ] 
Hey guys,
Some interest thoughts and some interesting opinions!
How about this? Should we all start doing what the Brazilians call (spelling is going to be way off on this one but it sounds like) Wuistro! Steroids! This will boost our recovery time and supercharge our athletic performance. Why not? The guys in the UFC do it and since they are the standard most use for real fighting level shouldn’t we do that to? Even the average guys at the local BJJ schools I am friends with love Creatine (sp?) to boost their strength for the average tourny!
Seriously tho!
How about this ultra sensative topic of CARDIO!
First lets realistically define exactly what we are doing or something close to what we are doing! Are we or are we not supposed to be a Rou Jing art in which Soft carries the Hard? Or! Are we some other type of art that uses a different base?
Now, if we so-called WCK practitioners are are truly a Rou Jing based art then isn’t Carido something that goes against the principles of our art? Why am I saying that? Because cardio causes the heart rate to accelerate/pump where as the goal is just the opposite of our training! Rou Jing, Stillness, etc.. Any true practitioner of these sort of arts work on slowing down the heart rate and relaxing the mind! Now! I know that sparring regular helps your get comfortable and relax during exchange but Cardio type exercise is counter-productive to our training! Fighting in the street is much different from multiple rounds in the ring or a time limit on the mat. Two totally different types of fighting. Street fighting is fast anf furious. If a fight lasts more than a a few seconds in reality then you have already lost IMHHO. Thats when things start breaking down or the other guy was just better! Certainly at this point a back up system is needed but we are not talking about that are we? We are talking about Wing Chun Kuen!
Agree or disagree?
Another thing that is very interesting to me is all the talk about MMA/UFC being the way to go. If your stuff does not hold up in those venues then its certainly not worth much right! Well, when will we see someone/anyone from that camp entering/competing or winning one of those or any event even similar to that with their UFC ready WCK? Until then I feel they need to show us some sort of results or placing status! Wheres the results? Anyone??? Please show us the real results from those competitions? Look forward to seeing them!
I am sure the cardio topic is not going to sit well with some but first we need to define what we actually are doing! Agree or disagree?
Regards,
Sounds like an excuse to me to be lazy, but thats just my opinion. Even ho kam ming encourages exercise, and when I met his student from maccau he was very fit for his age. It seems that later on in training after some basics are learned a lot of people i know encourage exercise.
Also, I was under the impression cardio exercise infact lowers your heart rate for exercising it.
If the body is not healthy then there is no harmony between the body and the mind. You must train the body as you do the mind. AKA - if you constantly think about training its a good idea to actually get off your butt and train once in a while.
Gangsterfist,
Sounds like an excuse to me to be lazy, but thats just my opinion.
Lazy has nothing to do with it. At all! Its just the training of our Kung Fu.
Even ho kam ming encourages exercise, and when I met his student from maccau he was very fit for his age. It seems that later on in training after some basics are learned a lot of people i know encourage exercise.
Nothing wrong with exercise but we are talking about WCK and if WCK is Rou Jing/Stillness then we are having a conflict of opinion. What is Stillness or Quiet?
Also, I was under the impression cardio exercise infact lowers your heart rate for exercising it.
When you are running is your heart rate pumping harder or less? When you skip rope does your heart rate speed up? When you finish training do have the thumping feeling in your chest from your heart pumping or does it actually slow down?
If the body is not healthy then there is no harmony between the body and the mind. You must train the body as you do the mind.
Sure! Different art have different platforms for the body and mind! Not everything is universal IMHHHO. Everything is not everything! So the harmony is there but the training is just different. How do you know if you have harmony of mind and body? If WCK relaxes the body then certainly relaxing the mind/heart and other stuff is part of the harmony of WCK.
AKA - if you constantly think about training its a good idea to actually get off your butt and train once in a while.
Good advice! I dont know who this was directed towards, or what this has to do with this topic, but still good advice.
Regards,
Jim,
Definately not geared towards you, just a general statement. About the cardio comment, lance armstrong one of the worlds best bicyclist heart beats about 28 beats per a min when he is relaxed and at rest. That is a result of his vigorous cardio training from bicycling. So, could cardio not infact help us slow down our heart when we are resting?
Just thought I would toss that idea out.
I was referring if your goal is to be a great martial artist, and that also yields being a great fighter, WCK will take advantage of all your physical attributes. Being healthy and in shape definately helps.
About your stillness and quiet, that can be interperted many ways. I have heard use stillness to beat motion, and be quiet so you can listen to your opponet, and you listen by feeling.
I guess it depends on how you interpret. However, I have people I train with who do not exercise at all, and they cannot even chi sao for extended times.
Hello G.F.,
Definately not geared towards you, just a general statement.
About the cardio comment, lance armstrong one of the worlds best bicyclist heart beats about 28 beats per a min when he is relaxed and at rest. That is a result of his vigorous cardio training from bicycling.
We cannot use the phenom type people to judge IMO yet we may use them as example of why they are better like Lance! Guys like Michael Jordan, Wayne Gretski, Tiger Woods, Lance, Rickson etc.. these are all outstanding or the 1 in a million type people. But! You are correct with his heart rate running on a much lower than normal! Thats why he can perform at a higher rate for a longer time period!
So, could cardio not infact help us slow down our heart when we are resting?
When we are resting but during training/combat is not like watching TV. Indeed there are benefits from Cardio! No doubt! I am not stating there isn;t but I am talking about WCK. How about this idea! Why not purchase a heart rate tool. They are cheap enough! Wear it when you are just relaxing and see what the average is. Then, wear it when you do your SNT and check. Then wear it when doing Chi Sao and check. See what the results are? Up or down!
Just thought I would toss that idea out.
Good points!
I was referring if your goal is to be a great martial artist, and that also yields being a great fighter, WCK will take advantage of all your physical attributes. Being healthy and in shape definately helps.
Still, there are different types of health for different activities! I know a lot of people will not agree with my post! Probally most! But! There may be some truth to it! WCK mind, body, harmony!
About your stillness and quiet, that can be interperted many ways. I have heard use stillness to beat motion, and be quiet so you can listen to your opponet, and you listen by feeling.
Is it just feeling or is it the state of being one strives to attain thru the art and during combat?
I guess it depends on how you interpret. However, I have people I train with who do not exercise at all, and they cannot even chi sao for extended times.
Sure! Indeed they work too hard and get frazzled. Slow it down with them and let them relax into it and gradually pick up the pace so that they can function normally in Chi Sao.
Regards,
Guys like Michael Jordan, Wayne Gretski, Tiger Woods, Lance, Rickson etc.. these are all outstanding or the 1 in a million type people.
What about Yip Man? William Cheung? Emin? …
Dismissing the hard work and extreme dedication of the people you mention as an fortuitous accident demeans both them and their sport/professions IMO.
They’re human beings like the rest of us, who just worked harder and longer at it than anyone else.
In my experience, natural talent is one of the least important attributes for success in any physical endeavour.
If you believe you can or can’t be as good as the phenoms … then you’re right!
My first instructor, when in hospital for an operation, used to amuse himself by practising breathing techniques in bed to get his hear rate down into the low thirties to freak the nursing staff out. He’s one of the best martial artists I’ve ever met, but he’ll be the first to agree he was blessed with no special physical attributes.
Are we or are we not supposed to be a Rou Jing art in which Soft carries the Hard?
I didn’t realise I was “supposed” to be doing anything. In any case many MA’s claim such a thing. BJJ does, and IMO is just as fit for this claim than Wing Chun. <straw man alert>Even if some of it’s practitioners take creatine</straw man alert>, like athletes in every other sport under the planet. BJJ is a sport, but it’s also very much an art, one that relies on technique and leverage rather than strength and endurance.
I don’t subscribe to your or anyone else’s idea of what WC is or how best to train it. We may share some goals, but if not that doesn’t mean yours are more legitimate or “closer to the true spirit of Wing Chun” than mine or anyone else’s.
In any case, I think WC’s methods for controlling breathing and other autonomic functions are pretty simplistic and crude compared to Yoga, ROSS and a number of other disciplines. If reaching the states you are talking around is your goal, I suggest you take up something else.
I do cardio to pump up. I do yoga to chill out. I want to experience the continuum.
Think that’s wrong? Opinion noted yawn
“Dismissing the hard work and extreme dedication of the people you mention as an fortuitous accident demeans both them and their sport/professions IMO.”
GLAD SOMEBODY said that…geez.
The heart needs to be strengthened and exercised - so OF COURSE cardio workouts are good for you.
The key is knowing how much cardio to do…if you’re one of these people running 8-10-12 miles per day…you will build up so much muscle around the heart that you will have big problems as you get older as the heart will try to pump more blood than is normal for its age in order to “feed” those overblown muscles…and you could actually suffer an early heart attack.
If you do NO cardio the heart muscle will get weak - and you are subject to the same possible early heart attack.
Funny how nature constantly tries to tell us to take the middle road in just about everything.
Running 1-2-3 miles at a time on a regular basis is the way to go.
And quite frankly - without doing that…as a martial artist/fighter…
you’re going to run out of gas VERY QUICKLY.
Hello Anerlich,
What about Yip Man? William Cheung? Emin? …
What about them?
Dismissing the hard work and extreme dedication of the people you mention as an fortuitous accident demeans both them and their sport/professions IMO.
Keep in ming I am not saying they did not work hard! That should be a given. Nothing good comes without hard work!
They’re human beings like the rest of us, who just worked harder and longer at it than anyone else.
Some put in more work than others and do not excel. Some do! One cannot deny that some people just have the gift! Thats what makes them the exception to the rule usually! Usually!
In my experience, natural talent is one of the least important attributes for success in any physical endeavour.
No doubt hard work can make up for ones natural abilities but still certain people can do thing better than others without as much hard work. Just my opinion!
If you believe you can or can’t be as good as the phenoms … then you’re right!
I think you know what I mean. If not! Then you should by now!
My first instructor, when in hospital for an operation, used to amuse himself by practising breathing techniques in bed to get his hear rate down into the low thirties to freak the nursing staff out. He’s one of the best martial artists I’ve ever met, but he’ll be the first to agree he was blessed with no special physical attributes.
Thats cool! So! He is an example of how hard work can pay off.
I didn’t realise I was “supposed” to be doing anything.
You are only supposed to doing what you want! I am just talking about WCK on a WCK discussion board!
In any case many MA’s claim such a thing. BJJ does, and IMO is just as fit for this claim than Wing Chun. <straw man alert>Even if some of it’s practitioners take creatine</straw man alert>, like athletes in every other sport under the planet. BJJ is a sport, but it’s also very much an art, one that relies on technique and leverage rather than strength and endurance.
You are correct! Its indeed an awesome art! But! Many many of its pro figters that compete in UFC and other events use that stuff to speed up the recover time and to keep them performing at peak! Most pro sport people do! So, when people talk and compare the average person to the Pro’s we must take into account all the stuff one need to do if they wish to fight in a similar type event or level. All just examples!
I don’t subscribe to your or anyone else’s idea of what WC is or how best to train it.
Thats ok! I dont either! Wing Chun was defined a long time ago! We dont need to subscribe to anyones idea! Just trying to understand it better.
We may share some goals, but if not that doesn’t mean yours are more legitimate or “closer to the true spirit of Wing Chun” than mine or anyone else’s.
Sure! You are right! Everyone has their own opinion and views. But, some stuff is undeniable IMO. Listed out very clear for us to understand and for us to use as training guides for our WCK.
In any case, I think WC’s methods for controlling breathing and other autonomic functions are pretty simplistic and crude compared to Yoga, ROSS and a number of other disciplines.
OK! What is WC method of controlling breathing in your opinion? Whats the difference between WCK and Yoga?
If reaching the states you are talking around is your goal, I suggest you take up something else.
No need IMO. WC is just fine for that. Actually, most Rou Jing arts have this training.
I do cardio to pump up. I do yoga to chill out. I want to experience the continuum.
Excellent! Then you have good experience. Most avoid the Chill Out part which is very important.
Think that’s wrong? Opinion noted yawn
Nothing wrong with any of it. Just a very sensative topic!
Hey man! Appreciate the chat! Good points!
Regards,
OK! What is WC method of controlling breathing in your opinion?
I’ve seen very few lineages that have more than a few very basic qigong exercises (basic stances, moving the arms in concert with subtle body mechanics related to diagphragmatic breathing, at various levels of internal pressure) and some fairly basic lip service to integrating breathing with strikes.
If you have something more sophisticated, I’m happy to be educated. But as I’ll discuss below, I’m less than convinced that such is a good idea anyway.
Whats the difference between WCK and Yoga?
As you put it so nicely above, “I think you know what I mean”. Yoga is a Indian system of physical mental and spiritual integration. Wing Chun is a TCMA.
I’d rather fighting arts concentrated on being fighting arts, rather than claiming to be all inclusive health systems, systems of mental and/or spiritual development, religious practices and social programs, even cultural niches and fashion guidelines. In my experience such systems try to be all things to all men/persons and as a consequence end up doing nothing particularly well.
Actually, most Rou Jing arts have this training.
And, actually, most are much more sophisticated than WC in that regard, though the other than incidental relevance of that to an art allegedly used for combat is open to challenge.
Brother Anerlich!
I’ve seen very few lineages that have more than a few very basic qigong exercises (basic stances, moving the arms in concert with subtle body mechanics related to diagphragmatic breathing, at various levels of internal pressure) and some fairly basic lip service to integrating breathing with strikes.
Cool! Lots of different approaches and all have value.
If you have something more sophisticated, I’m happy to be educated. But as I’ll discuss below, I’m less than convinced that such is a good idea anyway.
Nothing more sofisticated. I believe Stillness is a core component in WCK. Hence why SLT/SNT typically does not move around. Indeed a hard to argue similarity to Jam Jong. I believe (not sure so dont shoot me :-)) that I heard a WCK Kuit that states: Breath deep and natural. More or less the Water method versus the way some focus stuff which would be more Fire method as most call it. So, thats what I try to do. I think a good side training is Jam Jong. One post is plenty. Thats a good way to isolate and focus on the core and in the process it will get the juices flowing. It definetely transfers over to your WCK and then you dont need it anymore. You did Xing I right? Whats you opinion on San Ti?
As you put it so nicely above, “I think you know what I mean”. Yoga is a Indian system of physical mental and spiritual integration. Wing Chun is a TCMA.
Ooops! My bad! I mean for your body? Not the spiritual stuff!
I’d rather fighting arts concentrated on being fighting arts, rather than claiming to be all inclusive health systems,
Isn’t the first step toward being a good fighter is being healthy or having a healthy body? What good is Kung Fu or any art if it actually speed up your way to the grave. Hard arts are the perfect example. They close up your body and cut off circulation where as a soft and open body is much healthier. Hard fighters are really strong and tough. They pump the iron and that is indeed one form of strength/fitness but exactly the opposite of what we want. I did loads of cardio for many years. Love it! My heart was and is healthy and stronger which means it did not work as hard during activity. Now a days I have a different focus but still healthy.
systems of mental and/or spiritual development, religious practices and social programs, even cultural niches and fashion guidelines. In my experience such systems try to be all things to all men/persons and as a consequence end up doing nothing particularly well.
I agree with you! I am not saying WCK is everything. God knows I am not one of those guys but I do think some stuff is key to our developing. Breath, heart rate, mind would be part of it.
And, actually, most are much more sophisticated than WC in that regard, though the other than incidental relevance of that to an art allegedly used for combat is open to challenge.
Sure. Some art are just way way to rich and have too little good for the street but WCK IMHO is not just a relaxed structure with fast hands.
Gotta run amigo!
Ciao,