What's the deal with BaGua?

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts
1

I have some questions about Bagua that I was hoping you guys could answer.

  1. Are there forms? I heard not

  2. What is a ball park figure on the number of different tehniques in this system, I heard it’s few but you learn them well and detailed. Yet I never heard how many.

  3. Do they have a form of push hands? The only time I’ve heard it mentioned is in B.K. Frantiz book power of internal arts.

  4. What type of weapons do you learn. Do the all weapons contain circle walking, the saber demo I saw once did.

  5. On average how long should it take to learn(not master) the system. 5yrs, 10yrs, 15yrs? I am not looking to rush through the system but am curious about this

I hope you guys could answer some of these questions I am going to start learning an internal system but would like to know more about them before I choose a school so I can make a good choice. Thanks

2

i don’t know answer to any of your questions since I’m not a Bagua guy, but for question #5, I think 5 years is plenty of time to learn any system. That is get down the basics, and can do some stuff. Of course, the factors of having a good teacher, practicing frequently, the talent, etc., comes into play. Heck, that’s probably why college is 4 years. You learned the skills you need to either preform it or to further your skill and master it.

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The deal is…

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4

Just kidding…

  1. Yes. The most commonly known forms are called Palm Changes, and are remarkably short. However, they are also commonly performed on a continuous loop, so to speak, around a circle so that they may be performed repeatedly.

  2. This question does not apply to Baguazhang. It is built almost on a fractal basis, meaning that one form, posture, Palm Change, etc. can theoretically yield an infinite number of techniques as long as the principles of the art are not violated. In this respect, the forms of Baguazhang act as a kind of martial art “.zip file”, if you will.

  3. Yes. It’s called Rou Shou. However, there are also several 2-person interactive forms which function similarly to push hands as well.

  4. Weapons may vary depending on the style or lineage of Bagua one is learning. Typical weapons include the Bagua Dao (great sword), the Deer Hook swords, Half-Moon knives, and Judges’ Pens.

  5. Not applicable. These types of questions, while innocent enough, contain a faulty assumption that a) the style contains a precise number of codified elements to be learned, b) that the measure of learning it, mastering it, etc. is digital rather than analog, and c) that learning any individual element, technique, etc. is also a digital process.

I know, that sounded like a bunch of technical learning theory gobbledygook. And it was. Let me also put it in simpler terms.

a) as mentioned, Bagua doesn’t have a distinct, universally-agreed-upon number of techniques

b) it is necessary to define how one judges whether the art is “learned” or not, “mastered” or not, etc. The whole process is one that operates on a sliding scale. For instance, let’s arbitrarily say it takes 10 years to “learn” Baguazhang. Under this assumption, one who had practiced for 9 years and 364 days would no more be able to say he has learned the art than someone who is a 3-month newbie. Yet, the next day at 10 years, he is all of a sudden able to say he’s learned the art. Is there that much difference between yesterday and today? Sounds silly, doesn’t it?

c) same situation as above. Each person must define what it means to “learn” the technique. Does it mean you can use it effectively to save your life? Does it mean you can perform it with flawless technique? Does it mean you can feel optimal qi flow internally while performing it? Each of these three criteria are very different and can operate exclusively of the other two.

As Socrates put it, “The beginning of wisdom is the definition of terms.” I would also suggest that in obtaining wisdom, which questions are asked is at least as important as which answers are received.

Perhaps if you could outline for us what you are looking for in a martial art we could answer you more meaningfully. :slight_smile:

5

Ok Let me put it this way.

Is Bagua orginized in a similar manner as other systems, for instance I have learned technique or form A and can perform it in a satisfactory manner so now I will advance to technique or form B.

By learning the system I mean “I have completed to my teachers satisfaction techniques or forms A-Z and those are all the systems are comprised of”. If this is not how Bagua works then question 5 is void.

Anyway what I get from your post is that BaGua is a collection of techniques and principles that are combined with circle walking as the base. So the “palm changes” can be performed in any order or on a continuous loop and are all linked by the circle walk.

I think I get it but any other answers I could get would be helpful, just remeber I am a dumb external shaolin guy so go easy on me okay.:wink:

6

What can I say?

I’m learning Ba Gua now. I can think of using the first palm in a number of ways already. Very important.

Instead of thinking in terms of technique, I think in terms of shape and how that shape deals with different energies. The first palm, done alone, in the air, looks like it looks.

However, using the same shape, a number of different ideas can be expressed.

I find this method better then those I learned in external schools. There, you learn Technique A to counter attack B. Then so on and so forth. What happens when you see attack ZHYKL? Without knowing the secret defense, technique GHYSB, you would have no chance.

Better to learn how to split, divert, pierce energies, ect. Learn how to deal with straight force, round force, ect.

Its a different aproach. I highly recomend it. But, be careful. Ba Gua is becoming popular, but very few really know it.

7

LOL, it’s not a matter of intelligence, you guys just do things differently. I’m sure you could teach me as much about your art as I can teach you about mine. :slight_smile:

Baguazhang does not function like other arts, at least in the sense you described. It is not linear and sequential, wherein one may learn one set of material then move on to an entirely new set of unrelated material. While it’s not automatic, arts that use that approach do run the risk of information being forgotten soon after the student moves on. Sort of like studying for an exam in school, then promptly emptying your brain and forgetting the material the day after the test.

As I mentioned somewhat cryptically before, Baguazhang is built more on a fractal design. That is, even the simplest pattern contains an infinite number of variations on the theme, yet every variation contains the basic pattern, which in this case refers to the principles of the art. It is said that the whole art of Baguazhang can be found in the first two Palm Changes. Now, if you consider this statement only on the surface, you might conclude that there are about 3 or 4 techniques in the entire art. What is meant is that the movements found in the first two forms contain the basic pattern of movement and combination of principles for all the possible Bagua techniques, no matter how complex or advanced. That’s what I meant by referring to Bagua as a .zip file. All the other stuff can be “unpacked” from the fundamentals.

Circle walking is one of the universal aspects of Baguazhang, no matter the style. However, not all Bagua practice includes circle walking. While the Palm Changes can be performed out of sequential order, there is often a reason for choosing to practice them in a given order. IOW, it’s not necessarily a random process.

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So what you guys are saying is that Bagua deals with the energies of the movement rather than it’s surface manifistation. For instance a backfist and a hook punch can be delt with in a similar manner since they both travel the same way?

What I am looking for in a martial art is less number of techniques and more detailed info on the ones I do learn, I have also taken classes in Chinese medicine and acupressure and I am very interested in working more with the Qi. I am considering each of the 3 internal arts and Liu Ho Pa Fa. So i am really just trying to learn more about each of them.

What are some of the training methods in BaGua as far as standing etc. Are the 2 person forms similar to thos of other arts like shaolin?

Also do all schools normally practice Rou Shou or only certain lineages?

9

I think you’ve got the gist of it. I’m not sure exactly which techniques you are referring to in that a hook punch and a back fist have similar energies in that they are circular attacks, but are actually inverted forms of each other. Hooks and backfists come at you in a circular fashion, but from opposite sides.

As far as what you’re looking for, it sounds as if the internal arts fit the bill nicely, though I would suggest that your thinking is still a bit linear and sequential for what you will encounter in the neijia.

RE: "What are some of the training methods in BaGua as far as standing etc. Are the 2 person forms similar to thos of other arts like shaolin?
". I don’t believe any meaningful answers are going to work in a message board forum. I could give names of methods, but that would be meaningless. I could describe them, but in addition to being woefully inadequate, that would require pages and pages of response. You will find some aspects of the movements similar to those of Shaolin, but the mechanics and expression of energy are very different.

As for Rou Shou, it depends on the instructor.

10

Just to put in my own $.02…

  1. Yes, Bagua does have forms. In fact, there is a great variety of forms between styles. Even in circular forms, there are some styles that practice 8 short separate palm changes, while others have a long form done around the circle made up of 8 distinct sections. Some have linear forms as well, while some do not, only sticking to circular forms, and the linear forms also vary. Some have a few short linear forms, while other styles [ractice one long linear form (and in my style it is VERY long).

  2. I don’t think you can really count the number of techniques in a system which emphasizes personal expression so much. Even for a specific movement taught with a specific technique, if it is taught to 10 different people, you will end up with probably 100 different applications, some along similar lines and some greatly differing.

  3. Besides Rou Shou, there is also an exercise very similar to Taijiquan’s Single Push Hands done around the circumference of the circle. It teaches correct body movement and lightning fast evasive and entering footwork. Most people tend to practice the Rou Shou/free fighting type of exercises more. They are a lot less boring and look a lot cooler.

  4. Baguazhang has a lot of weapons, but many style focus on particular ones. Most of the forms I have seen are done around the circumference of the circle, but I did learn a staff form that is linear. Bagua uses a lot of the weapons that are out there, and even has some unique weapons of its own, like the Deer Horn Knives.

  5. I don’t think you can really pin down an exact time frame for someone to become proficient in the art because there are vast differences between people and training regimens. I do believe, however, that after about 5 years is when the art starts to really open up to you.

Now, I would say that if you want to perform the palm changes in your form out of order, you could. In the system I study, the palm changes tend to get more complex as the forms goes along, so putting them out of place feels wrong. Other systems may be different. Also, in my system, the first 3 palm changes are separate and distinct, while the fourth and fifth, and the sixth, seventh and eighth are linked. There are sometimes when I practice certain changes several times in a row, but I usually repeat them so that they flow. For instance, just practicing the first, second or third palm change several times in a row is no problem, but if I want to practice the seventh one, for instance, I also practice the sixth and eighth changes as well for flow. This is personal preference, though. Again, Bagua works a lot with your personal expression of the art, so if you want to do it differently, you can, as long as you don’t ignore the principles.

There are some systems of Bagua that have more “advanced” forms to learn after you have become proficient in the basics. But there are also some that approach things differently, where you have only a few forms, but more advanced ways of doing them and different “hidden” applications. In the old days, students who had mastered the system made their own forms, and that was kind of like their master’s thesis. Most schools nowadays, though pass down the same old forms, like any other martial art. There are a few supposedly still out there that have their students make their own forms when they have become skilled enough. But even within schools that tend to pass on the sam form to each new generation, there are those who make their own forms or palm changes based on their personal expression of the art.

In any case, Bagua tends to focus more on principles than techniques. The reason Bagua is said to have the highest number of techniques of any martial art is because of this, strangely enough. By not focusing on techniques but on principles, an infinite number of variations and techniques are allowed for.

11

I view bagua like enlightenement: the day before, you just practice techniques…the day after, bing, there it comes, and you are doing bagua, and every technique after that becomes done the way it should.
That’s why I do think there are no technique gradation or order: either you move external and do all techs worng even the first ones, either you move bagua way and do all of them properly…
Just my two euro cents

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Pay attention to Chris McKinley’s posts, they’re excellent.

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Thanks, Mr. Nemo. I very much appreciate the compliment. If I can help provide some clarity into the naturally murky depths of internal martial arts, I’m glad to help. :slight_smile:

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"I view bagua like enlightenement: the day before, you just practice techniques…the day after, bing, there it comes, and you are doing bagua, and every technique after that becomes done the way it should. "

CP, I think we all know what you mean.

Shaolin Dynasty, you’re thinking along the right lines. But visualize what you said.

Imagine the guy in front of you throwing a left hook.

Getting inside and raising, lifting that force, or just attacking it on its inside curve will do.

However, a back fist with the same hand is a different energy all together. It’s coming from the inside out, sharper, but, with out as much depth and force as the hook mentioned above.

That to me, is one of the study aspects of Ba GUa, just as, if not more important, is learning the correct alignment and power sorce used to attack and divery these incoming energies. Then there’s the walking (kicking), weight management, palms, there’s so much. Yet, the more I am learning the less I need to do to get things done.

Its a strange art, no doubt about it. I think the most improtant aspect is aproaching it with an open, yet practical mind set.

15

Yeah when I think of it a backfist and hook punch do have different energy. I was just in a rush and couldn’t come up with anything. Thanks though.

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Maybe this’ll help. BaGuaZhang ("8 Trigrams Palm) is a martial art founded (probably) by Dong Hai Chuan around 200 years ago, a culmination of Daoist Circle Walking exercises and various martial arts. Dong Hai Chuan only accepted students with extensive martail arts backgrounds, which is why there are so many different branches of the system. Theoretically, the system is based on the 8 principles/phases of changes in all nature, as described in the ancient Chinese classic, the ‘Yi Jing’ (“Book of Changes”). A primary distinction of BaGua from other systems is it’s extreme emphasis on circular/spherical movement, body-coiling, & centrifugal force.

1: All BaGua systems utilize forms to develop Principles of movement/Intent/Feeling (Jin/Jir). Most BaGua branches teach a series of 8 short forms, called “Palm Changes”, usually linked together in one long form called the “8 Mother Palms” (Ba Mu Zhang). Each of these short forms/palm changes are rooted in Dan Huan Zhang (single palm change) and Zhuan Huan Zhang (double palm change); other palm changes are variations of these short forms. Many BaGua branches have more basic forms before the 8 Mother Palms are taught, some branches have more advanced forms, and some (the rarest and best) branches even offer various levels of technical complexity of each of thier own basic 8 palm changes.

2: By “techniques”, I’m guessing you mean applications? There are no fixed number of applications in BaGua, since the system is based on continiously adapting to change, and transforming attack to counter attack. There is more emphasis on Principles of movement than postures or specific technique, more emphasis on methods of stepping than fixed stances. Dong Hai Chuan would only accept students with extensive previous training, so that such basics of stance & technique are already instinctual.

3: Previous posters, & the book you reference, mention ‘Rou Shou’ (“Soft Hands”), while my instructor called the practice ‘Zhou Shou’ (“Search Hands”), a free form drill to develop sensitivity, and continuity in application. Before ‘Zhou Shou’ is taught, a student is first introduced to set-pattern drills such as DanTuiShou (“Single Push Hands”), ZhuanTuiShou (“DoublePushHands”), Da Lun (“Big Wheel”, a double push hands drill with more variation/changes), and Chan Shou (“Wrapping Hands”). Zhou Shou is similar to “Randori” practice in Jujutsu/Akikijutsu, where applications/counters are practiced continuously in progressive levels, depending on the skill levels of the students.

4: Different branches and teachers of BaGua know/teach different weapons, each branch with it’s distinct usage/forms. Staff, Spear, Sabre (broadsword), Sword, Needles, etc., often taught while walking a circle, but not always. A weapon mostly unique to BaGua is a paired weapon called Yuan Yang Yue (“Elk Horn Daggers”).

5: How Long? Totally relative to how bright/talented the student is, and how knowledgeable/skilled the teacher is. At it’s roots, BaGua’s a very diverse system with incalculable depth. Finding a Ba Gua teacher is hard enough, finding an authentic, skilled practitioner is extremely rare. Most skilled practicioners are protective and reluctant to share the real, practical core of the system–if they do teach at all, it is often just an empty shell (forms) they exhibit. Which is why authentic, practical, useful BaGua is on the brink of extinction. Keep training hard, and keep searching! :smiley:

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Re: What’s the deal with BaGua?

Here are my immediate thoughts on this. I’m probably saying the same things as the others, but

  1. Forms, yes.

  2. Techniques. Bagwa is an art based on principle instead of techniques. Because of this you might say its similar to Bruce Lee’s JKD? You would not use Technique A against Technique B. You would react to Technique B and the given situation when it happens. The methods you’re taught are used to develop yourself to react properly. The number of movements you could respond with is infinite.

  3. I haven’t gotten to that yet myself, but it sounds like there is.

  4. Weapons? I haven’t gotten there yet either, but the weapons I remember on the wall at my school are, straight sword, broadsword, kwan dao, staff, spear, deer hook swords, half moon knives, single and double daggers.

  5. “Learn” isn’t the best word to use, but I can’t think of a great word either. Internal styles are always said to take longer because many of the changes that occur are internal and are less noticeable. Since Bagwa is an internal style it’ll probably be a lot longer before you’re considered “highly skilled” by fellow Bagwa stylists, but I think its all relative to how hard and focused you practice.