[QUOTE=falkor;1203983]
*Again, I don’t believe these villages existed in ancient times. All villages would have been spread apart about 10-30 miles.[/QUOTE]
This is the stupidest thing I have read today. But it’s still early here. What, in God’s name, did you base that statement on???
[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1204025]This is the stupidest thing I have read today. But it’s still early here. What, in God’s name, did you base that statement on???[/QUOTE]
His own personal fantasies!
He wants it to be the way he wants it to be and ignores any information that conflicts with his preconceived notions.
You can’t educate a know it all who doesn’t know that he doesn’t know what he doesn’t know!
[QUOTE=falkor;1203995]
Does anyone know if southern style Eagle’s claw with the fingers spread apart came from Shaolin? What does northern Eagle style look like?[/QUOTE]
The word southern would imply no. Songshan is a northern system. They could be related in the way that we could be distant cousins, but southern Eagle Claw would not be a system from Songshan, a northern style.
By northern Eagle Claw I would assume you mean Ying Zhao Fan Zi Quan. This style is often called Northern Shaolin Eagle Claw. It’s not a Songshan system. It may be related, but it is a different style. Search it, there’s lots of info.
Eagle Claw at Songshan is a different system then YZFZQ. There may be common roots, but they are not the same.
[QUOTE=Scott R. Brown;1204029]His own personal fantasies!
He wants it to be the way he wants it to be and ignores any information that conflicts with his preconceived notions.
You can’t educate a know it all who doesn’t know that he doesn’t know what he doesn’t know![/QUOTE]
I wonder what the Ancient One thinks about all this?
[QUOTE=Scott R. Brown;1204029]You can’t educate a know it all who doesn’t know that he doesn’t know what he doesn’t know![/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1204033]I wonder what the Ancient One thinks about all this?[/QUOTE]
LOL! You caught me… that was actually a quote from The Ancient One, but I’m on my Android pad and it’s a real pain typing on it, so I cheated.
Let’s just keep this between us gentleman, The Ancient One doesn’t need to know and I’ll do some extra training as penance! 
Shaolin techniques or styles can be listed with certainty, and did they include animal styles?
Yes. Naming martial arts tactics, forms and even entire military units after animals goes back to ancient times. This is well documented. There are 10 animals, connect by legend to Bai Yu Feng in the tradition I practice: dragon, snake, leopard, crane, monkey, pelican, horse/mustang, water buffalo, tiger, elephant. These are not separate sets but are integrated. Other sets include the butterfly (, ; ) but only the monkey really imitates the actions of the animal.
Lastly, does anyone know who was actually consulted during the creation of government sponsored Wu Shu after the Cultural Revolution?
‘Modern’ wushu was developed a decade before the Cultural Revolution and was based on traditional martial arts, as has been pointed out in other posts. I believe the main early members of the Chinese Wushu Association Committee included: Li Menghua, Wang Ziping, Mao Bohao, there were others but they were the key players. Cai Longyun may have been part of the team as well, but I am not so sure.
How much of competition Wu Shu was developed from traditional Wu Shu(a) and real Shaolin Kung Fu(b)?
What are you looking for? percentages? I’m not sure what you are asking, but yes modern wushu was developed out of traditional northern styles during the early 1950’s - note that this was well before the Cultural Revolution. The base style was Hong Chuan Quan (long first). Our tradition claims that Xiao Hong Chang Quan , and Da Hong Chang Quan were the basic testing sets of Shaolin for generations. Our sets have some resemblance to those practiced at Shaolin today, but are much more like northern long fist.
My teacher trained during the late 1920s and his teachers trained in the mid and late 1800s in Henan. When they left for Beijing Luoyang was in hell of a mess the Nian rebellion, extreme droughts, floods, high unemployment rate and widespread use of opium had crippled the region and made life there next to intolerable.
Falkor…you got do some more research and reading up on Kung Fu before you try to have this debate. You don’t seem to grasp some very fundamental, well understood facts about Kung Fu; it’s making it impossible for you to understand what people are telling you.
That’s what the teacher says to the student when he doesn’t know the answer to the student’s question.
There are literally hundreds of systems that call themselves Shaolin Kung Fu. Some were partially based on Shaolin, some probably just used the name. When you say Shaolin, you mean the style called Songshan Shaolin which developed in and around the temple. You keep using the word Songshan, but don’t seem to know the difference.
What makes you think I don’t understand the difference? Is it something in particular I said?
Bak Siu Lum, (northern Shaolin) is a different system. Related, but not the same. Northern Eagle Claw, Hun Gar, Wing Chun, Choy Li Fut, ect. are all called “Shaolin” systems. They are not the same as what is/was taught at the temple.
How can they call themselves Shaolin systems if they are not SongShan? Surely it’s just fake/fabricated. I never heard anyone say Shaolin Hung Gar or Shaolin Wing Ching. They just say that those styles may have originated at Shaolin (Song Shan), but are unable to prove it.
You don’t seem to understand when a style uses Mandarin or Cantonese. Anything that uses Cantonese is not northern; and can’t be directly from Songshan. What’s so hard about that?
Anything can be translated from Mandarin to Cantonese and vice versa, so, no, I don’t seem to understand this.
I also don’t have Meir’s book handy, but when you talked about “Hong” possibly having no relation, I’m pretty sure he was talking about a different, southern system there. Songshan is based off Hong Quan.
That’s exactly what I guessed!
There is a famous southern form called “The Eight Drunken Immortals.” Not to be confused with the myth that inspired it. That form, I believe, was the inspiration for the Jackie Chan movie you mentioned. I’m not 100% on that. I don’t know the form, but that one is certainly not a Songshan form. That’s not saying there’s not drunken forms at Shaolin. There are various styles with drunken forms. Lots of forms have the same names.
Well, the style is there in the earliest of Shaolin manuals and the illustration of one of the 8 drunkard forms from 1978-1631 (=?) years before looks just like a scene from Jackie Chan’s film.
[QUOTE=Scott R. Brown;1204029]His own personal fantasies!
He wants it to be the way he wants it to be and ignores any information that conflicts with his preconceived notions.
You can’t educate a know it all who doesn’t know that he doesn’t know what he doesn’t know![/QUOTE]
Why can’t you guys show me a 18th/19th century map of Henan showing all these villages intact? If I had to prove the existence of buildings in my country several hundred years ago then it would be **** simple for me to do so. Those villages have only grown up around the temple due to it’s modern day commercial appeal. That’s why Tai Chi was developed in a village more spaced apart, at 35 miles away. Everyone knows that villages are never joined together, and no sources talk about a complex of village buildings surrounding the temple. Even natives will not be permitted inside certain public buildings unless they are some kind of member (I use the word in the broadest sense).
Yes. Naming martial arts tactics, forms and even entire military units after animals goes back to ancient times. This is well documented. There are 10 animals, connect by legend to Bai Yu Feng in the tradition I practice: dragon, snake, leopard, crane, monkey, pelican, horse/mustang, water buffalo, tiger, elephant. These are not separate sets but are integrated. Other sets include the butterfly (, ; ) but only the monkey really imitates the actions of the animal.
Cheers for the info!
‘Modern’ wushu was developed a decade before the Cultural Revolution and was based on traditional martial arts, as has been pointed out in other posts. I believe the main early members of the Chinese Wushu Association Committee included: Li Menghua, Wang Ziping, Mao Bohao, there were others but they were the key players. Cai Longyun may have been part of the team as well, but I am not so sure.
Did these guys all study Hong Chuan Quan or consult masters of that style?
What are you looking for? percentages? I’m not sure what you are asking, but yes modern wushu was developed out of traditional northern styles during the early 1950’s - note that this was well before the Cultural Revolution. The base style was Hong Chuan Quan (long first). Our tradition claims that Xiao Hong Chang Quan , and Da Hong Chang Quan were the basic testing sets of Shaolin for generations. Our sets have some resemblance to those practiced at Shaolin today, but are much more like northern long fist.
Does Hong Chuan Quan (or related sets) include the Monkey you spoke of that actually imitates the monkey (in a loose sense)? What does the traditional Song Shan Crane look like or is there no traditional Song Shan Crane as part of Hong Chuan Quan?
If Song Shan Shaolin Temple has been practising traditional Hong Quan for several hundred years then who was practising traditional Wu Shu before it became a sport just before the Culturual Revolution?
[QUOTE=falkor;1204054]How can they call themselves Shaolin systems if they are not SongShan? Surely it’s just fake/fabricated. I never heard anyone say Shaolin Hung Gar or Shaolin Wing Ching. They just say that those styles may have originated at Shaolin (Song Shan), but are unable to prove it.[/QUOTE]
You can think of it as a family name. Generations later, descendants may have moved to different regions, speak different languages, mixed with different blood, look quite different, but retain the same family name.
…
Even WIngChun contains the same moves, but it is harder to see because they are all used in the small frame and the forms contain less foot work.[/quote]
I find this very interesting since I practice both, but can’t convince anyone of it online without demonstrating it. It’s not something you can see, unless you have learned both and understand what’s happening in each movement.
In the Xiaohongquan I have, the first section contains every single basic hand action found in Siu-nim-tau, including the foundation for the vertical punch, as well as the new concepts introduced in Cham-kiu, just with more footwork, larger motions, and of course other techniques not taken in Wing Chun.
The beginning even has the exact sequence for one side of the single sticking hands drill. Taan-sau, palm strike, bong-sau.
One could in essence teach the Wing Chun barehanded system just using Xiaohongquan.
[QUOTE=falkor;1204057]Those villages have only grown up around the temple due to it’s modern day commercial appeal.[/QUOTE]
From someone who has obviously never been to these villages and doesn’t know what kind of place he’s talking about…
They’ve grown up? Because of commercial appeal?
Get real. :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=falkor;1204057]Those villages have only grown up around the temple due to it’s modern day commercial appeal. [/QUOTE]
As I understand it the mountains were deforested by villagers for firewood. That could indicate a pretty sizable population up there.
[QUOTE=falkor;1204054]
What makes you think I don’t understand the difference? Is it something in particular I said?
[/QUOTE]
Well for example, this statement.
[QUOTE=falkor;1204054]
How can they call themselves Shaolin systems if they are not SongShan? Surely it’s just fake/fabricated. I never heard anyone say Shaolin Hung Gar or Shaolin Wing Ching. They just say that those styles may have originated at Shaolin (Song Shan), but are unable to prove it.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=falkor;1204054]
Anything can be translated from Mandarin to Cantonese and vice versa, so, no, I don’t seem to understand this.
[/QUOTE]
Of course anything can be translated.
And Wing Chun uses southern language because they are a southern style. Songshan uses northern language because it’s a northern style. If the system was developed or made famous in a certain region, it’s reflected in the name of the system and what language they refer to their forms/techs!!!
When you keep asking if X Cantonese style, is part of Y Mandarin style, it implies you don’t know the difference.
[QUOTE=falkor;1204054]
Well, the style is there in the earliest of Shaolin manuals and the illustration of one of the 8 drunkard forms from 1978-1631 (=?) years before looks just like a scene from Jackie Chan’s film.[/QUOTE]
As I said, I’m not sure on that, suffice to say, there are different drunken styles. I have read the book, (actually just bought it recently at Gene’s suggestion, I’m no KF historian,) and seen that movie…I haven’t seen the movie in a long time and I don’t remember for sure, but I thought it was loosely based on the southern form. Could very well be wrong. Remember, it’s just a movie. He could of just made it all up from wushu…I don’t know for sure…not everything you see in the movies is an accurate portrayal of a system.
[QUOTE=falkor;1204057]Why can’t you guys show me a 18th/19th century map of Henan showing all these villages intact? If I had to prove the existence of buildings in my country several hundred years ago then it would be **** simple for me to do so. Those villages have only grown up around the temple due to it’s modern day commercial appeal. That’s why Tai Chi was developed in a village more spaced apart, at 35 miles away. Everyone knows that villages are never joined together, and no sources talk about a complex of village buildings surrounding the temple. Even natives will not be permitted inside certain public buildings unless they are some kind of member (I use the word in the broadest sense).[/QUOTE]
Villages that have just recently had roads made to them? They built the modern, commercial villages before the roads?
Dude, I am currently in a tiny village, that you would have an awful hard time finding on any old fashioned map; and there’s another little village 2 miles away and another one 2 miles in the other direction.
Have you never left your own town? Trust me, there are other villages out there.
Villages are never joined together? Have you ever heard of the suburbs? LOL
[QUOTE=falkor;1204057]Why can’t you guys show me a 18th/19th century map of Henan showing all these villages intact? If I had to prove the existence of buildings in my country several hundred years ago then it would be **** simple for me to do so..[/QUOTE]
Falkor, come on now, this is really stupid.
I have actually been to the nearby villages. There are often old buildings in them. Old temples (there are MANY temples nearby the Shaolin temple, both on a level, above and below, its a mountain). I mean, they didn’t build some of these places recently.
Go to google maps
Type in this;
shaolin si, dengfeng, henan, china
Then look to the WEST of the temple. ALL mountain. Many villages. Those names, Tangou, BaiYunCun etc. these are all the names of villages. They are deep in the mountain. They are hard to get to by road, easier by walking from Shaolin. It is faster to walk from the temple to BaiYunCun then to take busses. I know this because I have done it. Look at the scale, all these places are within a few miles. Easy walking distance.
SO deep in the mountain, what commercial appeal could start a village there? On the road to the EAST of SHaolin I could see the appeal, but to the west too?
How do you explain the ancient buildings in these towns? A lot was destroyed in the revolution but some remains and it is undeniable.
[QUOTE=falkor;1204057]Why can’t you guys show me a 18th/19th century map of Henan showing all these villages intact? If I had to prove the existence of buildings in my country several hundred years ago then it would be **** simple for me to do so. Those villages have only grown up around the temple due to it’s modern day commercial appeal. That’s why Tai Chi was developed in a village more spaced apart, at 35 miles away. Everyone knows that villages are never joined together, and no sources talk about a complex of village buildings surrounding the temple. Even natives will not be permitted inside certain public buildings unless they are some kind of member (I use the word in the broadest sense).[/QUOTE]
As you can see, from the many post between this post and your post, is not that there are not any maps for you to see. It is that you have unrealistic expectations of the kinds of proof historical documents can and/or do provide.
Maps? Are you kidding me? You think 200 years ago, or even further back in time, the whole world was mapped?
Maps were very rare and very unreliable. The “show me” or it didn’t happen attitude can’t apply to history.
From your posts, it appears you have one main source you base your fantasies on. Shababdabadoo may be a fine scholar. He may be a respected scholar. But that does not make him correct and it does not mean his sources are correct. He may be partially correct or not and you would never know.
History is not an exact science. It involves assumption, extrapolation, speculation and out right guessing.
The quality of written source material is determined by the writer’s skill in writing, education, memory (which known to be notoriously inaccurate), temperament, the amount of time he takes to write, who he is writing for, how long after events he is writing, his personal integrity… etc.
Just because someone wrote something in a book does not make it so, sometimes it is not even probable. Other times further information discovered or other information not considered negates the claims or conclusions an author writes.
History is not an exact science… it is your expectation of certainty that is your error.
[QUOTE=LFJ;1204061]From someone who has obviously never been to these villages and doesn’t know what kind of place he’s talking about…
They’ve grown up? Because of commercial appeal?
Get real. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
How Shaolin Temple, it’s villages and Kung Fu appear now (or to the previous generation) has no bearing on history or how they were in the pre-20th century. What were the Shaolin monks learning at the temple besides Hong Quan, 8 Drunken Immortals and Mizongyi? How comes Choy Li Fat, Wing Chun have similarities to the north? Some styles have obviously been lost from Song Shan and there have been migrations in the past and gaps in martial arts training at the temple due to upheavals.
Some of the things RenDaHai are telling me seem totally inaccurate. His categorisation of Wushu and different classes taught at Shaolin doesn’t seem correct. The description of “performance” and how southern animals came to be featured seems like wild speculation. You guys keep telling me “Hong Quan”, “Hong Chuan Quan” and “Chuantong”, but all my sources are telling me this style is called CHANG QUAN (LONG FIST):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Changquan
I didn’t put up any posters for Jet Li’s Shaolin Temple; I uploaded the PRESSBOOK. Not trying to split-hairs or anything, but there is a lot of unnecessary confusion in this topic, creating more questions than answers. Are you deliberately trying to confuse me?
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1204070]Falkor, come on now, this is really stupid.
I have actually been to the nearby villages. There are often old buildings in them. Old temples (there are MANY temples nearby the Shaolin temple, both on a level, above and below, its a mountain). I mean, they didn’t build some of these places recently.
Go to google maps
Type in this;
shaolin si, dengfeng, henan, china
Then look to the WEST of the temple. ALL mountain. Many villages. Those names, Tangou, BaiYunCun etc. these are all the names of villages. They are deep in the mountain. They are hard to get to by road, easier by walking from Shaolin. It is faster to walk from the temple to BaiYunCun then to take busses. I know this because I have done it. Look at the scale, all these places are within a few miles. Easy walking distance.
SO deep in the mountain, what commercial appeal could start a village there? On the road to the EAST of SHaolin I could see the appeal, but to the west too?
How do you explain the ancient buildings in these towns? A lot was destroyed in the revolution but some remains and it is undeniable.[/QUOTE]
In the absence of old maps that you don’t seem to be able to provide, please give me some examples of ancient architecture:
*Name of the building(s) (can be in Simplified Chinese if necessary)
*What period were the buildings built roughly?
*Weblink to the building in question (can be a website in Simplified Chinese if necessary)
*Location of the building and distance from the Shaolin temple
Of course anything can be translated.
And Wing Chun uses southern language because they are a southern style. Songshan uses northern language because it’s a northern style. If the system was developed or made famous in a certain region, it’s reflected in the name of the system and what language they refer to their forms/techs!!!
When you keep asking if X Cantonese style, is part of Y Mandarin style, it implies you don’t know the difference.
Your first paragraph/sentence sounds like a contradiction to your 2nd and 3rd paragraphs.
As I said, I’m not sure on that, suffice to say, there are different drunken styles. I have read the book, (actually just bought it recently at Gene’s suggestion, I’m no KF historian,) and seen that movie…I haven’t seen the movie in a long time and I don’t remember for sure, but I thought it was loosely based on the southern form. Could very well be wrong. Remember, it’s just a movie. He could of just made it all up from wushu…I don’t know for sure…not everything you see in the movies is an accurate portrayal of a system.
You are missing the point. The movie is based on the southern style practised by real martial artists off-screen, which in turn, has been transmitted from the north to the south, but is no longer taught in Song Shan. The fact the manual illustration looks just like the movie emphasises it’s history.