What was known about Shaolin Kung Fu prior to the 20th century?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Shaolin Kung Fu
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I emailed Meir Shahar, the author of The Shaolin Monastery (first true academic work on the subject), but he was unable to answer my question about “Shaolin Quan” AKA Shaolin Kung Fu. My question is:

What is factually known about Shaolin Kung Fu prior to the 20th century from credible sources? In other words, without quoting unverified, legendary, mythical sources, what Shaolin techniques or styles can be listed with certainty, and did they include animal styles?

According to the book Shaolin Monastery, by 1904 the Shaolin Temple was in ruins and Kung Fu was no longer being practised there. In 1928 the temple burnt for the first time, for 40 days, and didn’t really recover until the 1980s. Going back to the Ming-Qing transitional period hundreds of years earlier, Shahar attributes 2 known manuals to earliest Shaolin teachings at the monastery, which includes acupuncture and pressure points. Drunken style most likely originated at the temple as well.

However, between the Ming-Qing and 1904 there is no mention of what Shaolin Kung Fu actually was, though there are listed a number of martial arts styles that were developed in close proximity to the monastery, say about 30 miles away, and could have been developed at Shaolin, but there is no way of knowing for sure. One example was Tai Chi, which I heard closely resembles Shaolin Kung Fu. And a lot of the styles Shahar mentions got tied mythically to the Wudang legends.

I was reading that 18/72/108 Louhan technique was where the animal styles originated from, but do not know if this technique was listed in credible sources of the pre-20th century? In other words, how accurate is that claim? I’m worried it might be something to do with the South Shaolin Temple and other legends that cannot be proved? I know that researching in the other direction, Choy Li Fat, Hung Gar, Wing Chun doesn’t factually take you back to Shaolin Kung Fu (whatever Shaolin Kung Fu really was; I know what it became). Was Five Ancestors/White Crane recorded as being taught at the monastery or originating there?

Lastly, does anyone know who was actually consulted during the creation of government sponsored Wu Shu after the Cultural Revolution? How much of competition Wu Shu was developed from traditional Wu Shu(a) and real Shaolin Kung Fu(b)? When did the Shaolin monks first tour the world? Obviously, it seems like there was a big break with training at the monastery between 1904 and the 1980s, and I think this might have had something to do with propaganda and installing a new Abbott there even though there hadn’t been one for several hundred years? Shahar suggested that Gene Ching might be able to help with my queries about the modern history of Shaolin?

Any help would be much appreciated!

SUMMARY OF TOPIC (updated 30th December 2012)

MY QUESTION: What did pre-20th century Shaolin Kung Fu consist of as taught at the temple, and did it include animals styles? (credible sources only please)
ANSWER FROM SHAHAR: Earliest known styles taught at the temple: pressure points, plum flower fist, internal qi-circulation, drunken, Lost Track Fist. Nothing mentioned between Ming-Qing and 1904 except for styles taught in distant villages (compared the scale of today’s villages)
ANSWER FROM THIS FORUM: Chang Quan (traditional only) broken down into small hong quan, big hong quan, and two roads hongquan, possibly Monkey style (that conversation is still in progress), Mantis style, Eagle (no details have yet been discussed on these possibilities or is inconclusive)

MY QUESTION: How was modern Wusu was formed and how does it compare to what the Shaolin monks were learning before? Who was consulted during it’s creation and when did the monks first tour the world? Who studied traditional Wu Shu?
ANSWER FROM THIS FORUM: Wu Shu is categorised into several types Sanda (kickboxing) Wushu (competition), BiaoYan (performance) and Chuantong (traditional). Committee members have been named. Chang Quan is the base form. Books/magazine articles have been recommended by Gene Ching (and purchased). “Performance” created recently based on animal styles from Hong Kong Movies (southern)

GENERATED DISCUSSIONS: Were there gaps in the teachings at the temple during the 20th century? Did Shaolin Temple resemble a town with boundaries beyond its walls or is this a modern day commercial venture? Preserving manuals. RenDaHais’s 2 previous masters: what they have taught him. Chang Quan as studied by RenDaHai in Song Shan. Did anyone migrate to other parts of China or Taiwan? Did the monks eat meat/drink wine or practise Drunken style? Did Shahar understand interplay between vilages and shaolin? RenDaHai’s future video releases. Accuracy of oral traditions vs. written documents in the realm of scholarship. Do the Shaolin monks practise now what they did back in the day? Have any styles been lost? When was the Shaolin Temple burnt/destroyed? Similarities between Chang Quan and other styles taught in the north (and to a lesser extent the south; ChoyLiFut being the most similar). Chairman Mao. Kung Fu ban. The 1930s. South Shaolin Temple/Fujian or centralised zen temple under another name. Comparing today’s Kung Fu styles. Does a native know more about history of his area compared to a foreigner? Shahar’s agenda/scope and accuracy of his work. Were the 5 animals ever part of the Song Shan teachings? Do old maps exist of China? The lack of falkor’s sources. Animal styles that imitate and those that are just named after animals. Accuracy/language of the naming of styles. Jet Li’s Shaolin Temple and the lack of animal styles. So called Grandmasters of Shaolin Kung Fu and how they got the title. Confusion over northern/southern origins of styles. Kenpo. How long did it take for 1500 forms to evolve? How long did it take for the monks to learn performance (based on southern styles as seen in the movies)? Philosphy of Chan. Are we wasting energy writing/explaining things here? Bak Siu Lum and northern Shaolin. LKL and his plum flower fist. The science of history. Natives of the temple area vs. visitors in context of entry to the temple and study of Shaolin Kung Fu. The significance of roads and villages.

IMAGES: One photo of the Shaolin Temple without any caption. Jet Li’s Shaolin Temple pressbook. Pictures of Chang Quan techniques.

VIDEOS: Videos of traditional Chang Quan as RenDaHai learnt in Song Shan villages. Videos of different types of Wushu.

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its in his book. buy it.

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Have you actually read Dr. Meir Shahar’s book?

It’s pretty clear in there that the early reference to military commanders recognizing the Kung Fu of Shaolin was in a manual produce and distributed sometime in the 1520’s.

So, I’m not sure why he wouldn’t answer you. Also, 1928 was the third and “last” time Shaolin was destroyed by fire. The dispersal of the last monks came then. There was Kung Fu available to the public before that happened though.

Many of the styles in the 20th century were preserved by various efforts and there were notable organizations as well such as The Jing Mo or Ching Woo.

Monks from the last destruction spread out as well. A notable one who traveled and taught Shaolin Kung Fu widely was Sek Ko Sam (Shi Gao Can).

The qing/ming struggle was a 300 year engagement. that’s 3 centuries of rebellion. A lot happened and there is a strong tendency to oral tradition in filial Kung Fu styles.

So, their pugilism and staff work have been known for some time. Not to mention the events in the 1300’s where they first go recognized for their martial prowess.

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opening Pandora’s box…

[QUOTE=falkor;1203595]Shahar suggested that Gene Ching might be able to help with my queries about the modern history of Shaolin?[/QUOTE] Nothing like passing the buck, right? :wink: As for modern history, read my book (see Shaolin Trips by Gene Ching). You can also read Matt’s book (see American Shaolin by Matt Polly). For more on Shahar’s book, see our discussion on it here: [URL=“http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49464”]The Shaolin Monastery: History, Religion, and the Chinese Martial Arts by Meir Shahar

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Answer; A lot

My Master was born in 1922 and has trained within Song Shan since a child. I have learned forms he learned as a boy and I can tell you the Shaolin Kung fu of the 1930’s is well preserved…

Shahar’s book contains too much conjecture based on too few sources outside the temple.

What he (Shahar) doesn’t cover is the importance of the interplay between the song mountain villages and the temple itself. Their Kung Fu is inseparable. The Shaolin temples Kung Fu has spread to almost every village of Song Shan and styles from accross the centuries are preserved there.

Also a vast number of QuanPu (Kung Fu manuals) still exist in the villages. They contain much info on Kung Fu and attribute themselves to Shaolin AND should be possible to date using radiocarbon dating. These are far more valuable than the diaries of people who supposedly visited Shaolin temple for 2 days once. Having lived in Dengfeng for nearly 7 years I can tell you 2 days would not have been enough to have seen much Shaolin Kung Fu.

Anyway, a great deal is known. Comparing styles I have learned in the various villages of SOng Shan and taking into account their history it is possible to say the main body of Shaolins Hong Quan and Pao Quan has not changed much in the last 500 odd years and not really at all in the last 360 years.

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[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1203626]
Also a vast number of QuanPu (Kung Fu manuals) still exist in the villages. They contain much info on Kung Fu and attribute themselves to Shaolin AND should be possible to date using radiocarbon dating. [/QUOTE]

Is anyone doing anything to collect and preserve these manuals? Have any been made available publicly? Have any been translated into English?

It seems collecting any legitimate, pre 1930’s Shaolin manuals from the surrounding villages and compiling them into a book would be a very important, historical undertaking. It would probably be pretty profitable too.

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[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1203628]Is anyone doing anything to collect and preserve these manuals? Have any been made available publicly? Have any been translated into English?

It seems collecting any legitimate, pre 1930’s Shaolin manuals from the surrounding villages and compiling them into a book would be a very important, historical undertaking. It would probably be pretty profitable too.[/QUOTE]

For many people in the rural areas of China, family traditions are often the most valuable “possessions” a person can have…people are understandably very protective of their gongfu. The fact that it might be profitable would make them even more so. Ripoff artists and city-fied wushu coaches wanting to cash in abound in China. Foreigners wanting to have a short stay in China and come back as kung fu masters (like Damasco) are also a problem.

I think for any kind of undertaking you are suggesting would require a very trusting, sincere, and sensitive person.

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[QUOTE=pazman;1203632]For many people in the rural areas of China, family traditions are often the most valuable “possessions” a person can have…people are understandably very protective of their gongfu. The fact that it might be profitable would make them even more so. Ripoff artists and city-fied wushu coaches wanting to cash in abound in China. Foreigners wanting to have a short stay in China and come back as kung fu masters (like Damasco) are also a problem.

I think for any kind of undertaking you are suggesting would require a very trusting, sincere, and sensitive person.[/QUOTE]

I guess you’d have to have the right guy/group to approach it correctly. Maybe some one/organization locally. Give credit to the families who allowed their manuscripts to be copied, throw them a little cash; present it as what it is…something of historical importance that they can be a part of.

I don’t know the people, so I don’t know what it would take…but it seems if you had the right folks, going about it the right way, it should be doable.

I would think there would be a lot of interest in a project like that.

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[QUOTE=bawang;1203610]its in his book. buy it.[/QUOTE]

I’ve read the book thoroughly, and it doesn’t list any techniques/styles for Shaolin Kung Fu following the earliest known manuals and drunken style. There is a gap of several hundred years where only neighbouring Kung Fu styles are explicitly talked about.

David obviously hasn’t read the book because the Shaolin Temple burnt only once!

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[QUOTE=falkor;1203706]I’ve read the book thoroughly, and it doesn’t list any techniques/styles for Shaolin Kung Fu following the earliest known manuals and drunken style. [/QUOTE]

because there is no such thing as shaolin kung fu. its all imported from outside.

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[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1203626]Answer; A lot

My Master was born in 1922 and has trained within Song Shan since a child. I have learned forms he learned as a boy and I can tell you the Shaolin Kung fu of the 1930’s is well preserved…

Shahar’s book contains too much conjecture based on too few sources outside the temple.

What he (Shahar) doesn’t cover is the importance of the interplay between the song mountain villages and the temple itself. Their Kung Fu is inseparable. The Shaolin temples Kung Fu has spread to almost every village of Song Shan and styles from accross the centuries are preserved there.

Also a vast number of QuanPu (Kung Fu manuals) still exist in the villages. They contain much info on Kung Fu and attribute themselves to Shaolin AND should be possible to date using radiocarbon dating. These are far more valuable than the diaries of people who supposedly visited Shaolin temple for 2 days once. Having lived in Dengfeng for nearly 7 years I can tell you 2 days would not have been enough to have seen much Shaolin Kung Fu.

Anyway, a great deal is known. Comparing styles I have learned in the various villages of SOng Shan and taking into account their history it is possible to say the main body of Shaolins Hong Quan and Pao Quan has not changed much in the last 500 odd years and not really at all in the last 360 years.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for your reply. 1930s Kung Fu wasn’t being practised at the Temple anymore it seems, so it would no doubt be very difficult to attribute any styles of that period to the temple, in terms of originating there or at least being demonstrated there. In answer to my question, you say a lot is known about Shaolin Kung Fu before 1900, so could you please elaborate with any examples? For example, do we know if Monkey or Praying Mantis was being taught there as a certainty?

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[QUOTE=bawang;1203707]because there is no such thing as shaolin kung fu. its all imported from outside.[/QUOTE]
Of course different techniques would have been created, imported, compiled and taught at the temple. Since Shaolin did become a hotbed of Kung Fu training at the center of neighbouring Kung Fu villages, it’s possible that several styles were even pioneered at the temple. For certain between the Ming-Qing and 1904 there would have been a corpus of styles and techniques known as Shaolin Quan AKA Shaolin Kung Fu, but what exactly did it consist of…? After 1904 Kung Fu was no longer being practised at the temple; the modern day Wu Shu Monks are not descended from the original monks nor do they learn the same Shaolin Kung Fu that was being taught at Shaolin prior to 1904. What was the original Shaolin Kung Fu? Without having to look into different people’s claims about having preserved elements of Shaolin Kung Fu on the island of Taiwan throughout the Cultural Revolution, there must be some 18th-19th century source that gives us a rough idea what real Shaolin Kung Fu was? This information must be known, but Shahar’s book is not a history of Shaolin Kung Fu, but a history of the monks and monastery. Is my question not clear in any way? Can anyone please shed any light regarding a possible answer?

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[QUOTE=GeneChing;1203614]Nothing like passing the buck, right? :wink: As for modern history, read my book (see Shaolin Trips by Gene Ching). You can also read Matt’s book (see American Shaolin by Matt Polly). For more on Shahar’s book, see our discussion on it here: [URL=“http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49464”]The Shaolin Monastery: History, Religion, and the Chinese Martial Arts by Meir Shahar
[/QUOTE]
Hi Gene, thanks for your suggestions! Do any of your books or articles cover any of the following?
*The initial creation of modern competition Wu Shu, including consulted practitioners of Kung Fu
*How modern Wu Shu compares to original Wu Shu and Shaolin Kung Fu
*How monks came to occupy the temple again and how it became commercial (before or after the release of Jet Li’s Shaolin Temple)
*The formation of the Wu Shu team with coaches Wu Bin and Li Jun Feng
*When the monks first toured the world
If so, is there any way I could pay you directly for a PDF or eBook?

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[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1203628]Is anyone doing anything to collect and preserve these manuals? Have any been made available publicly? Have any been translated into English?

It seems collecting any legitimate, pre 1930’s Shaolin manuals from the surrounding villages and compiling them into a book would be a very important, historical undertaking. It would probably be pretty profitable too.[/QUOTE]

IT would require a lot of work for the reason Pazman says, people are not forthcoming.

However with a team of Professors from a chinese university helping you… Asking to read and not copy and asking for as small a section as possible to carbon date you might get some.

This kind of original research needs to be done. I think the inheriting generation will be more approachable than the current.

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[QUOTE=falkor;1203710]Thanks for your reply. 1930s Kung Fu wasn’t being practised at the Temple anymore it seems, so it would no doubt be very difficult to attribute any styles of that period to the temple, in terms of originating there or at least being demonstrated there. In answer to my question, you say a lot is known about Shaolin Kung Fu before 1900, so could you please elaborate with any examples? For example, do we know if Monkey or Praying Mantis was being taught there as a certainty?[/QUOTE]

In the 1930’s Shaolin was not an isolated temple. Literally outside the door was a market and an entire village called Shaolin. And just next to it a village called Tagou. Along with many more small hamlets in the gullies of the mountain. All of these are now gone because of regulation. They all practiced Kung Fu.

There was never a gap with no Kung Fu practicing monk in the temple. There were times when the only ones were very old but still knew Kung Fu.People from the villages would still train in and nearby the temple.

Monkey? Yes. Speciality of old masters. Shaolins monkey looks not much like a monkey however. The technique is imported from the XingYiPai some time ago and converted to Shaolin style. My master practices it and it was the first he learned back in the late 20’s in his village (v. close to shaolin). It was from shaolin and earlier from Xingyi.

Mantis? Yes and no. NO complete mantis system was practiced there. But there are Shandong forms which resemble mantis in technique. There are even sets called Mantis, but these are later interpretations of mantis technique mixed into shaolin style. SO kind of.

Drunken? Yes and No. When the movie came out in 1982 the old monks still in the temple were incensed (yes there were monks there at the time and they used to teach the local kids). They said that Shaolin monks do NOT drink. And that shaolin has no drunken Kung Fu. Is there any in SongShan however? Yes, there are zUi Luohan forms. And BaXian forms (though these are clearly of taoist origin). ZhongYue Miao once had a thriving Ma.

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[QUOTE=falkor;1203711]After 1904 Kung Fu was no longer being practised at the temple; the modern day Wu Shu Monks are not descended from the original monks nor do they learn the same Shaolin Kung Fu that was being taught at Shaolin prior to 1904. What was the original Shaolin Kung Fu? ?[/QUOTE]

Not sure where you get this from. It was indeed practiced after 1904. There has never been a gap of someone practicing.

Never the less if we look at the Forms for example. The forms now are the same largely as the ones practiced by my master in the 1930’s with some simplifications. He learned from LiGenSeng who in turn learned in Shaolin post 1904. This is all very well known if you go to the area.

But second to that in every village they practice Kung fu and have done for centuries. There are many villages. They have 1500 forms in Song shan. Yet they all practice largely the same technique. The form XiaoHongQuan appears in almost every sect.

I leanred one from Luotuoyuan village and it is similar to the current one, a bit longer with more techs. I learned from the nan yaun pai in another village separated from shaolin by 360 years. Yet their form although different was the same sequence overall and contained many of the same techniques. I learned in Mogou village (seperated by 500 years). Different form but the same technques throughout.

The main techs are; XieXing, PanZhou, ChongTianPao, Huitouwanyue, Wozhen, Gunquan, Yunding, QiXing, SHizidazhangzui, SHushen, KuaHu, DaHushi, Kuaichui, DanBian… etc etc.

True these appear in every style of longfist. But in song shan they have a unique look and they follow certain principles not held by all the others. the same names are used throughout the villages even though their kung fu is seperated by hundreds of years. And they all attribute it to Shaolin usually to JinNaLuoWang.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUM8MFutaWM

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[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1203714]

Monkey? Yes. Speciality of old masters. Shaolins monkey looks not much like a monkey however. The technique is imported from the XingYiPai some time ago and converted to Shaolin style. My master practices it and it was the first he learned back in the late 20’s in his village (v. close to shaolin). It was from shaolin and earlier from Xingyi.

[/QUOTE]

Do you practice any of the traditional monkey style? Seems hard to find…when I want to see a traditional monkey form I always come across loads of wushu nonsense…how old is that system, why doesn’t there seem to be many younger masters teaching it?

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[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1203714]In the 1930’s Shaolin was not an isolated temple. Literally outside the door was a market and an entire village called Shaolin. And just next to it a village called Tagou. Along with many more small hamlets in the gullies of the mountain. All of these are now gone because of regulation. They all practiced Kung Fu.

There was never a gap with no Kung Fu practicing monk in the temple. There were times when the only ones were very old but still knew Kung Fu.People from the villages would still train in and nearby the temple.

Monkey? Yes. Speciality of old masters. Shaolins monkey looks not much like a monkey however. The technique is imported from the XingYiPai some time ago and converted to Shaolin style. My master practices it and it was the first he learned back in the late 20’s in his village (v. close to shaolin). It was from shaolin and earlier from Xingyi.

Mantis? Yes and no. NO complete mantis system was practiced there. But there are Shandong forms which resemble mantis in technique. There are even sets called Mantis, but these are later interpretations of mantis technique mixed into shaolin style. SO kind of.

Drunken? Yes and No. When the movie came out in 1982 the old monks still in the temple were incensed (yes there were monks there at the time and they used to teach the local kids). They said that Shaolin monks do NOT drink. And that shaolin has no drunken Kung Fu. Is there any in SongShan however? Yes, there are zUi Luohan forms. And BaXian forms (though these are clearly of taoist origin). ZhongYue Miao once had a thriving Ma.[/QUOTE]
A lot of what you are saying sounds based on legends or is controversial. I think the villages that surrounded the temple and associated themselves with Shaolin Kung Fu is something of a modern phenomenon since the release of Jet Li’s Shaolin Temple. Kung Fu techniques were certainly being developed in villages, say, 10-30 miles away, but I think it’s unlikely that the buildings in the immediate vicinity of the temple complex go back to ancient times; they were most likely built and formed villages attached to temple as a way of accommodating modern visitors of the past 30 years.

According to Shahar’s research the temple was in ruins in 1904, Kung Fu was no longer being practised there, and in 1928 burnt for 40 days. Before the Qing army arrived it had already fallen under the attack of several bandits. So there was definitely a gap in the teachings and lineage. All the masters would have fled to other parts of China and Taiwan, but then that’s where the legends start to come in, including the foundation of the Southern Shaolin Temple from 5 escapees and several burnings (both north and south); let’s not delve into that area.

What are your sources for Monkey and Mantis? Shahar’s evidence for Drunken style is sound.
The monks broke 2 rules: they drunk and they fought (for the Emperor). This is why they lasted for so long, whilst other Buddhist monasteries were shut down. Sometimes being a rebel will get you further in life than trying to be too nice and honest, etc.

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[QUOTE=LFJ;1203716]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUM8MFutaWM[/QUOTE]

Thanks LFJ…I actually have seen this video before, I think from this forum…is this the only set or are there more to the system?