In an effort to keep Wing Chun based subjects on the books…what sort of drills do you use in your teaching and/or do you practice in your training?
These could be the drills common to most wing chun like bong lap da, or perhaps something that you’ve developed yourself.
Hopefully through this thread, we’ll all be able to get more insight and perhaps new ideas to further our training and teaching methods…
Some of the drills that I like in my curriculum are the following:
TED (Threat envelope drill)
[INDENT]Used in conjuction with stance training to help learn distancing. Basically two individuals square off and as one moves the other reacts to make sure the distance is JUST far enough out that the opponent cannot hit them without a major step forward. Later on when attacks are added, the reaction to an attack is also as such so that the attack is just falls short so that a counter can be made effectively.[/INDENT]
Man Sau (asking hands)
GTG (Guarding the gates)
[INDENT]To gain an understanding of the 6 gates, I use this to show the idea of taking the space of the area that is being attacked. The specific technique doesn’t matter as much as the idea of taking away the space in the gate that is being attacked. [/INDENT]
Keeping the Jung Sin (retaining the centerline / attacking line)
5 point drill (not a sparring drill, but rather for conditioning)
[INDENT]This is something I like to do simply to help build conditioning in the forearms and wrists. Basically each person uses Noi gaan sau, Tan sau, Gaan sau, Jaam sau, and wu sao…at the same time with opposite arms. This conditions the forearms while practicing sao fot.
[/INDENT]
MTH / ID (Meeting the hands and interception drill)
[INDENT]This drill is a two step process. The goal is to first get the student used to seeing punchines / strikes coming at him in fast and continous succession…not all straight punches either. Anything goes. The student will react to these by defending in free form (blocking, deflecting, covering, redirecting, etc). Later, with the attacker using the same rythym, the defender will infuse a counter strike on the half beat while still defending (and not getting hit). [/INDENT]
Don chi sao, and its variations
Poon sao / gor sao / lok sao
Gan gerk / chi gerk
Progressive sparring / limited sparring
[INDENT]Progressive sparring is similar to the 1-2-3 step sparring you’d see in many martial arts styles. Prearranged or spontaneous. This is also where you’d see things like learning to see when and how to stop hit. Generally it weens the individual into the full-out continuous sparring. Limited sparring is where one individual must work a specific skillset or range of fighting, for example one person is working kicks and the other is working kick defenses against someone that’s actually trying to kick them.[/INDENT]
Free sparring
[INDENT]Anything goes, done at varying levels and intensities, gear, no-gear, as the students skill permits[/INDENT]
Nice thread topic, Van…
I start drills after an introduction to basic footwork, stationary vertical fist wing chun punches, and a basic front kick from the neutral side (body) stance followed by 2 vertical punches, and of course a small introduction to what’s in the first section of SLT…
The first drill I teach is a basic stationary pak sao/pak da drill…to be followed by the same drill but with the defender using some footwork to move on the third punch thrown at him - so that the ending has him pressuring the opponent and stopping his own punch right at the guy’s face.
So he’s getting some feel as how to go about one way (pak) of dealing with a straight punch…and getting an intro to near simultaneous block and strike as he comes into the opponent’s space.
Next, I want him to start learning immediately how to deal with round punches and hooks - as the round punch/hook is, in my opinion, the most likely type of punch he’ll ever have to deal with (more so than straight punches, uppercuts, etc. - although obviously his training will ultimately include defenses and counter attacks against all types of punches and strikes).
So the next drill is a basic stationary defense using a bil/lop type motion against soft, easy round punches…to be followed by one wherein he’s moving in with some footwork against round/hook punches and simultaneously (or to be more specific, nearly simultaneous) - throwing a punch back at the attacker while doing the block/redirect bil/lop defense…
and the list continues with some defenses against kicks and low round strikes…
while also learning the basics of how to throw rear front kicks, rear round and straight knee strikes, rear roundhouse kicks, and a rear horizontal elbow strike…and by now he’s also learning some more SLT and more footwork.
And then an intro to how (and when) to throw longer range straight (boxing type) leads and rear crosses…
before I introduce more wing chun drills per se…
which are, next: dan chi sao
(followed by how to use bong/lop against a straight punch thrown from a distance (so now he’s learned two such defenses (Pak was the first, Bong is the second)…
Next: luk sao (basic rolling & switching hands)
to learn some energy flow while covering the centerline, leaving it, and returning to it…
and next, I go back to the pak sao/pak da drill that had footwork…and this time…the guy who gets countered with pak da after he threw the third punch now defends the pak da with a pak/chuen lop sao/da…
to be followed by his partner learning how to counter this with tan da.
And that’s where I leave it for awhile (in terms of wing chun drills, per se)…so an intro has been made within the first few months of training to all of the above close quarter wing chun concepts, techniques, and scenarios…
to be followed…(before any more “wing chun” per se)…
to be followed by more long range punching, kicking, and footwork: leads/crosses in combo, jabs…and hooks off the jab, shuffling attack footwork, TWC entry footwork, how to use round and hook punches without a lead jab setup, uppercuts, lead roundhouse kicks from a distance as a gap closer, rear wing chun heel kicks to the opponent’s lead leg as you move in (or when he comes in)…
and more drills than I care to mention right now that pertain to fight ready light sparring, including a quick transition from leads and crosses to elbows down-and-in wing chun vertical punches once the gap has been closed…while pressuring with gum, pak, lop, lan sao, and of course some chain punching.
And then, after all this - by way of an introduction to long and short range standup striking…
then…and only then…do I start to add more “conventional” wing chun drills like bong sao/lop sao and double arn chi sao that goes beyond the basics I’ve already mentioned.
And of course more drills having to do with sparring (and clinch fighting) coming soon thereafter.
[QUOTE=Vankuen;994418]Some of the drills that I like in my curriculum are the following:
TED (Threat envelope drill)
[INDENT]Used in conjuction with stance training to help learn distancing. Basically two individuals square off and as one moves the other reacts to make sure the distance is JUST far enough out that the opponent cannot hit them without a major step forward. Later on when attacks are added, the reaction to an attack is also as such so that the attack is just falls short so that a counter can be made effectively.[/INDENT]
Man Sau (asking hands)
GTG (Guarding the gates)
[INDENT]To gain an understanding of the 6 gates, I use this to show the idea of taking the space of the area that is being attacked. The specific technique doesn’t matter as much as the idea of taking away the space in the gate that is being attacked. [/INDENT]
Keeping the Jung Sin (retaining the centerline / attacking line)
5 point drill (not a sparring drill, but rather for conditioning)
[INDENT]This is something I like to do simply to help build conditioning in the forearms and wrists. Basically each person uses Noi gaan sau, Tan sau, Gaan sau, Jaam sau, and wu sao…at the same time with opposite arms. This conditions the forearms while practicing sao fot.
[/INDENT]
MTH / ID (Meeting the hands and interception drill)
[INDENT]This drill is a two step process. The goal is to first get the student used to seeing punchines / strikes coming at him in fast and continous succession…not all straight punches either. Anything goes. The student will react to these by defending in free form (blocking, deflecting, covering, redirecting, etc). Later, with the attacker using the same rythym, the defender will infuse a counter strike on the half beat while still defending (and not getting hit). [/INDENT]
Don chi sao, and its variations
Poon sao / gor sao / lok sao
Gan gerk / chi gerk
Progressive sparring / limited sparring
[INDENT]Progressive sparring is similar to the 1-2-3 step sparring you’d see in many martial arts styles. Prearranged or spontaneous. This is also where you’d see things like learning to see when and how to stop hit. Generally it weens the individual into the full-out continuous sparring. Limited sparring is where one individual must work a specific skillset or range of fighting, for example one person is working kicks and the other is working kick defenses against someone that’s actually trying to kick them.[/INDENT]
Free sparring
[INDENT]Anything goes, done at varying levels and intensities, gear, no-gear, as the students skill permits[/INDENT][/QUOTE]
Don’t you think this MAY be over complicated?
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;994500]Don’t you think this MAY be over complicated?[/QUOTE]
Can you elaborate?
Will elaborate a little further on the “sparring” drills we do - and how it eventually graduates to all out sparring.
But first, Van…I’m wondering if sanjuro’s comment was aimed at all the technical Chinese terms you were using??? I don’t know, just a thought…
But anyway, picking up on where I left off…in TWC we do some bong /lop drills that are more like the “kiu sao” the HFY guys used to talk about a lot…starts from non contact…he steps in with a straight punch to your head (from a matched leads/parallel leg postiion)…you respond with bong sao/lop as you step slightly back and to his outside…and you step back in with a straight punch of your own as you lop sao…
he might come back with a round punch to your head…you respond with a bil sao/chuen sao and straight punch…(all the while he’s also stepping back and slightly outside with bong/lop as you were doing)…he might come back with a low straight punch…you respond with jut/garn sao…he might throw a low round…you defend with garn…etc.
Just one example of many drills that can be done from this (slightly out of contact) range…using both cross arm and matched lead (parallel arm) starting points…
and all the while learning more about double arm chi sao and how to apply the moves and principles learned there (see my channel on youtube about this)…and all the while learning some more defenses from long range against various types of attacks…
and then comes one of the most important actual sparring drills of all:
DIFFERENTIATION.
After you’ve learned say, three responses to three different attacks (ie.- parallel position vs. high straight lead punch, high round punch, rear front kick)…your partner doesn’t tell you now which is coming - he just throws one and you respond…if you miss one (ie.- your response was wrong)…he repeats that particular attack before going back to trying to hide what’s coming…
then he does it as he’s moving around (so you’re adding footwork)…then he adds more techniques/attacks coming at you…(because you’ve now been trained with an appropriate response for more than three attacks - maybe now it’s five or six)…
and then you start attacking with some attack moves you’ve learned - including the long range boxing/kickboxing material I alluded to in my previous post - and how and when to transition to pure (or mostly pure) wing chun at close range…
and when it gets close you both start using what you’ve learned from the double arm chi sao and other related drills - about energy flow, forward pressure, covering the gates, keeping the appropriate distance for wing chun striking, trapping (although my ideas about trapping are very basic immobilization of one of his arms while positioning your body to use two of yours)…
and also including some other things you’ve learned by now from wrestling and fighting in the clinch (overhooks, underhooks, w h i z z e r s, head control, snap downs, go behinds, elbow and knee strikes)…because all the while I’ve been adding some wrestling clinch material (and some Thai-like material into the format - which is very close to some of what William Cheung teaches in TWC about elbows and knees anyway)…
and other things about basic takedowns, basic takedown defenses (ie.- sprawls), and perhaps some intro to basic wrestling/grappling groundwork…
and eventually this goes from light sparring to all out with full gear…with the head gear coming off if it goes to the ground - and sometimes if it goes to full clinch, the head gear comes off also..with the understanding that strikes to the face and head need to be light.
ONE IMPORTANT NOTE:
The “set” responses I mentioned earlier are first learned very specifically and detail oriented - with the understanding that you will have to make many adjustments and modifications along the way when sparring begins…which is why both spontaneous SPARRING and the
FLOW AND SPONTANEITY learned in chi sao and various chi sao related drills is so valuable.
[QUOTE=Vankuen;994638]Can you elaborate?[/QUOTE]
Well, I can understand 1,2 and even 3 step drills and controlled sparring and free sprarring is a given, but more than that?
Why?
Many systems don’t even have step sparring, they simple have free sparring with varying level of contact and equipment drills ( boxing, mt, etc) and they develop excellent fighters, why do more?
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;994973]Well, I can understand 1,2 and even 3 step drills and controlled sparring and free sprarring is a given, but more than that?
Why?
Many systems don’t even have step sparring, they simple have free sparring with varying level of contact and equipment drills ( boxing, mt, etc) and they develop excellent fighters, why do more?[/QUOTE]
I agree that there is a lot of, or too much stuff, often times, in some WCK curriculum. This is often done to avoid free sparring, so you do everything but… Although folks could add in more modern elements like scenario training, etc, which there generally is not enough of.
The problem with free sparring in WCK is that it is too inbred.. You are “fighting” WCK v WCK all the time in the training.. WCK folks need to spar with folks who do not do WCK.
The classical training takes you through the basics, and there are a lot of them, and then it sets you free.. It is at this stage where to move to the next level you need to go out and spar/fight with folks from other disciplines, who btw will not fight like WCK does.. Very few will go on to explore, fight and learn past the basic training course…
Good point about the inbreeding and not enough scenario training, Jim.
Wing Chun vs. wing chun sparring is valuable but should be practiced in moderation. I’ve learned more from my students (and friends, colleagues) skilled in boxing, karate, wrestling, jiu jitsu, kickboxing, etc. than from anyone else…when it comes to sparring.
Which means: overall fighting.
How often will you get to work/fight (outside your school) against someone who’s also going to use wing chun and will want to “bridge” the way wing chun does, for example.
Most fighters will throw punches and withdraw their arms…and not use extended leads very much. Or the opposite: they might try to go to full clinch or takedown mode and bypass the wing chun close quarter hit/bridge range altogether.
Another reason why too much chi sao (and forms and wooden dummy training) can be counter-productive.
I’ll never forget a seminar with William Cheung when he wanted to concentrate on actual fighting strategy and technique more than anything else. A little later on he asked all present what they would like to focus upon - and one guy responded : “chi sao”
William Cheung was visibly annoyed when he responded critically: “Chi sao?! I said this is about fighting.”
Moral of the story: Someone who’s a master of chi sao wanted to keep it in it’s place.
…
And the above is another reason why I start teaching people boxing moves and punches, kickboxing and wrestling material, etc…very soon after they join. I want them to get good with these moves as quickly as possble in order to test the wing chun that we do as often as possible.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;994973]Well, I can understand 1,2 and even 3 step drills and controlled sparring and free sprarring is a given, but more than that?
Why?
Many systems don’t even have step sparring, they simple have free sparring with varying level of contact and equipment drills ( boxing, mt, etc) and they develop excellent fighters, why do more?[/QUOTE]
I don’t think I mentioned anything there with more steps than that. I use three step sparring for beginners so to speak. People with zero time in sparring, or trying to apply a new movement against stronger attacks. It’s not used for everyone. The curriculum is flexible and customized to the individual.
In my experience, it seems to build less anxiety and allows a progression that helps some people better than sticking them in there in a free flowing environment.
The same can be said of some of those other drills, once proficiency is gained in a skillset, that drill really isn’t used as much unless someone needs to go back and refine that skillset. It’s a progression…where eventually sparring is the mainstay outside of practicing the basic movements to maintain proper technique.