i dont like drills.
i prefer chi sau.
i dont even see the point in some drills.
like drills?
why? have you done any chi sau?
like chi sau?
do you still value drills?
Chi Sao is a drill.
Step by step. Skip a step, maybe earn a stumble.
Hmm,
either your chi sau is not my chi sau or my drill is not your drill.
i’m not sure which but chi sau doesnt hang pictures on the wall…
foolinthedeck
I don’t really like the idea of just doing drills myself. But there is a place for them. We use them to show how a set of applications may flow together. But then I ask my students to break them apart and look at each movement and ask themselves what else could be done in place of each moevement in the drill or any other particular movement. But I think free flow application is most important once a student gets the idea of each movement in the so-called drill. 
Drills are better!
Drills teach percision and create a reference point for our proper use of techniques. They also teach the proper alignment and exeqution in reference to an opponent. We need this knowledge and experience to transition properly into San Sau.
IMO.
David
fau kiu
Everyone can benefit from a little drilling in the beginning. I would reiterate that wing chun kung fu is more than just chi sao.
Drills, however boring and seemingly pointless, allow you to work on your weak points. Chi-sau started too early produces a sloppy and one dimensional WC player.
Just watch two novices go at it in chi sau. You will see the same techniques used over and over again because they are comfortable with those and are unwilling to try their weaker moves for fear of being hit.
Originally posted by foolinthedeck
i dont like drills.
i prefer chi sau.
i dont even see the point in some drills.
Maybe you need better drills, but it seems that we’re back to the points made in your thread on Respect. I suspected that there was more to it than t-shirts and belt gradings.
Matrix
Re: Drills
Originally posted by foolinthedeck
i dont like drills.
i prefer chi sau.
i dont even see the point in some drills.
There may be a problem with those drills … OTOH, the problem may lie with you.
like drills?
I have found some drills very useful to develop particular skills … moving from conscious incompetence, to conscious competence, to unconscious competence. Repetition is the mother of mastery. I do think after a while one reaches the point of diminishing returns and it is time to incorporate the skill into a more random arena like chi sao or sparring.
why? have you done any chi sau?
like chi sau?
I expect I’ve probably done more than you. I do like and value chi sau (which is a drill), but it is only one facet of a complete training regimen.
do you still value drills?
Yes, as above, including chi sau drills.
Re: fau kiu
Originally posted by canglong
“Everyone can benefit from a little drilling in the beginning.”
Whoop, there it is !!! 
-David
perfect practice…
hmm.. drills can suck, but muscle memory and being familiar with ALL possible movements is extremely important. Here’s some thing my fencing teacher told me : “Everyone has the will to win, not everyone has the will to suffer to win”
love and unity,
matt
Foolinthedeck
i dont like drills. i prefer chi sau.
Chi sao is one drill you like. What do you like about chi sao?
i dont even see the point in some drills.
Drills are empty. This may be why you dislike them. Ask your sifu what the focus of each drill is. Then you may see it’s value.
like drills?
Yes.
why?
They have value
have you done any chi sau?
Yes
do you still value drills?
to the extent that every time I drill it is the first time.
I think I’ve posted this a couple times before but drilling in and of itself is useless. Just mindlessly/robotically going through 1000 reps does little but waste your time.
Instead, go through each rep, one at a time, and conciously make it better than the one before. In the beginning, have your sifu watch and make corrections, work on each correction, then get the next, and as time goes by you’ll be able to auto-correct and introduce variance and complexity and still conciously work to improve every single rep.
Drilling is everything especially in the beginning. Look at some examples of martial artists who excelled. Sum Nung practiced the turning punch until he wore ditches in the tiles outside Tin Hoi restaurant, and he had his students work reps at the beginning of every class, first solo, then partner reps.
Even in modern times, people like BTT co-founded Mario Sperry have written about the importance of reps. He makes every student do at least 100 concious reps of 3 techniques before they’re even allowed to take class.
Look at boxers and kick boxers, the same combos, drilled over and over again…
From my perspective, everything we typically do in our WCK practice - forms, lop sao, chi sao, etc. - is a drill, i.e., a skill building exercise. Some of these exercises also, in some cases, have very significant additional aspects. Yet the point of any drill is not to learn the drill but to learn from the drill. And as our skills build, so must the drills change. So Rene is correct when he says “Drilling is everything.” Gung fu is skill obtained by hard work over time – and a major part of the hard work over time is progressive drilling.
Terence
Another point of view about drills is that you can train them on your own(outside of class). As posted above if you do every rep with the intent to improve yourself, you will. And these improvements will manifest themselfs in applications like lat-sao, the forms and chi-sao.
IMO people who have problems doing the basics of any art whether its becase they think they are boring, they just dont like hard work, or worse they dont respect their Sifu enough to beilive they are being taught things for a purpose might want to re-evaluate their continued practice of kung-fu
as i understand it “kung-fu” translates into english as ‘Hard work’ so get use to it
treestump wrote:
IMO people who have problems doing the basics of any art whether its becase they think they are boring, they just dont like hard work, or worse they dont respect their Sifu enough to beilive they are being taught things for a purpose might want to re-evaluate their continued practice of kung-fu
when i say i dont like drills let me say what i prefer.
when i began wing chun i did single sticky hands (dan chi sau?) for 4 hours at a time for about 6 months, then double for the nextr 6 months, i dont have a problem with ‘hard work’ just when i have to punch in a certain way or its ‘not the drill anymore’… when i do a drill, i’m not allowed to swap legs, to change my centre evenb subtley, when someones hitting me and i have to drill a certain defence, i’m not allowed to let my body react with its learned chi sau reflexes, i have to do a particular defence for a particular attack. real life is not how things are in drills. In my expereince, and its only my exp, people who drill loads do get really good technical ability,m but change the parameters from how they originally drilled and they cannot deal with it, i find alot of people cant cope with being hit really really slowly because all their drills are at a set speed - as fast as possible.
is chi sau a drill? not in my sense of a drill being restricted to me do this you do that. i do waht i like, chi sau ios about ‘play’ i do the worng thing constantly, i enjoy the exp.
dont assume that just because i’m a fool and i’m willing to ask the questions
people seem to think i’ve done no chi sau and i know nothing because i ask. i’m interested in your opinions, how much chi sau i’ve done or not is irrelavant. i see an angle i exploited it.
dint mean to sound harsh, its just that ive delt with some bad apples
anyways back to topic
ok chi-sao is suposse to be as natural,smoot and flowing as possible, in other words your not suppose to pause mid-attack ro defense in order to check your positioning angle, ect. ect
what mind numbing drills allow you to do is to perfect your positioning and technique as much as possible in a controlled enviroment so when you do free form stuff or chi-sao your movements and positioning are as correct as possible
I think i know where your comming from though i use to hate doing the forms but after a while i started seeing how much they improved my WT.
i felt the same way about drills
now the only time i dont like doing drills or anything for that matter is when the people im working with dont take it serious or have a bad/negitive attitude.
I love drills
drills are great. If I had to pick between only doing drills or only doing chi sau, i’d choose drills. I like drills because they are what makes your wing chun second nature. Drills are the repetition that makes your wing chun become your reflexes. I view chi sau as another drill. It’s a sensitivity drill. I think after about 2 to 3 years of wing chun half your time should be spent of drills and half on chi sau. (excluding forms and sparring from this discussion). most of chi sau should be done in a repetitious “drill like” format anyway. only 20 percent of chi sau practice should be free style chi sau in my oppinion. free style chi sau is useful and fun, but I wouldn’t put all my eggs in one basket if you know what I mean.
Thinking
At my Kwoon we practise forms, do drills, then play some Chi Sau or various other reflex drills depending on your level.
We practise drills to work on a specific aspect and to instill the oft mentioned Muscle Memory.
But that said, I was recently in class doing some drills that worked Pak Sau, and asked my Sifu a few questions. He answered the specific questions and then said:
“All of our drills are really about movement, Duncan. Sure, a Pak Sau drill is for working Pak Sau, but it’s equally about your feet, your hips, your movement and angling. Think about the bigger picture. There’s more to the drill than just the hand work.”
So that’s what I try and work in the drills…
Everything.
B & B sez:
Thinking
"All of our drills are really about movement, Duncan.
So that’s what I try and work in the drills…
Everything.
good thinking.