What Mitts do you use?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
41

Hey Terence,

well, considering the heat and scope of a few of our discussions, I had to throw that in there. The use of weights should probably not be mentioned in the same room as you and me, unless we’re looking to disperse a crowd.

More immediately, I think anything which can reduce risk of injury at minimal cost to training efficiency is a good idea. I know I can do stuff without gloves, but they do cut down on certain risks. Hence, under some training circumstances, I’m a strong advocate of them. Keep in mind, I rotted out 3 wallbags and one heavy bag with the blood from hands and elbows in my first year and a half of training, then entered my clinical years, and have since been exquisitely careful about open wounds on my body in exposed places (looking down at spatters of blood on my forearms from last night at work).

If you train rough and you and your partners get opened fairly regularily, anything which cuts down on body fluid exchange is a good idea.

A quick PSA- EVERYBODY TRAINING SHOULD HAVE A HEPATITIS B VACCINE SERIES. TRANSMISSION RATES ARE APPROXIMATELY 100X GREATER FOR HEPB BY NEEDLE STICK THAN FOR HIV!!!

we now return to our regularily scheduled discussion

UF,

an old aquaintance and sometime drinking partner (never a friend or someone I cared for) was recently released from prison after doing a 5 year stint for rape. Back in the day when he and I drank in the same places, he p*ssed some people off, per his usual modus operendi. Three guys jumped him from behind, leading off with a shot to the head with an aluminum baseball bat. Nash, a guy who had his name tattooed across his knuckles in order to remember it, turned around, and was charged with ‘malicious wounding’ for what he did to those three people afterwards.

My second year in WT, I brawled a little with a guy who did some Okinawan iron body stuff, prior to his one NHB fight. I’d hit the guy full-power over most of his body the day before to no effect during a demo. The one thing I could pull off, giving up 60lbs of weight and 3" height to him (and, make no mistake, he handled me pretty easily at the time), was to fold elbows into his face from mount, bouncing his head off the floor. He tapped on that.

Not everyone goes out easy, but no-one gets back up fast from a well-delivered curb-stomping. Good control can put you in the position to hear those sweet sounds.

The goal of combat is to preserve your own skin and render the other person incapable of exerting force upon or control over you.

Knocking them out is one way of doing this.

Some folks have a h*ll of a jaw. For them, there’s pavement.

And escrima.

Andrew

42

AndrewS - Had an old training partner who was 6’2 or so and 200 some odd pounds (the smaller of two brothers ;). Strong as a bull, he used to go into gyms and try to outlift the dedicated powerlifters for kicks (he didn’t train weights). I saw him take pretty heavy Thai kicks in the head from people roughly the same size without any apparent effect. He was also d@mn near and olympic level sprinter (flirted around 10 sec.) making running a not very effective option either.

(The older/bigger brother was exponentially worse, used to walk around with a pitcher with a straw in it and tell the younger one he could take any MA he wanted for 10 years and it wouldn’t help him :wink:

RR

43

Rene,

lemme guess, farmboys, right?

When they left home, their parents had to buy a tractor?

Built stocky, a little thicker in the middle, arms not so huge, legs thick but not so long, medium to heavy bone structure? If not, please share the build- I’m curious. The look I describe is one of the ones I keep an eye out for in people. The buff boys with gym teats and roll-on tan don’t phaze me, but folks like that are dangerous.

Later,

Andrew

44

I used to train with a guy who was a dockworker. He was about 5’11" 215lbs. very flexible and strong like a bull. The funniest thing about him was his fists were like freakin mini potroasts. He looked deformed. A guy you definitely needed Nikes for.

Okaaay…back to the topic. I use Century open fingered gloves that I modified. I basically cut the fingers down some more and took out that annoying padded bar that’s in the palm. I also sewed the fingers up some more to give me a tighter feel. Not the greatest of protection - but it’s something.

I feel that it is necessary to wear good gloves for the protection of others during some of the more difficult drills we do. We also use shinguards, forearm pads, and cups on a regular. It really depends on what we’re doing - sometime headgear and chestprotectors.

45

Andrews,

Using the floor to your advantage is a technique employed in many MA’s, particularly Judo and wrestling which utilise the floor much better than WCK. Gaining a mount is not however very likely for a small woman to do against a large attacker, or any method of her slamming his head to the pavement. I just find it ludicrous that anyone could say (as tibbit_hoff did) that in WCK a KO is less likely to come from punch than using the concrete to slam his head. Seems like he has not developed a truly powerful WCK punch capeable of both Knockout power as well as ‘penetrating damage’. My punch is still improving, but I like to think that if it connects with someones face they will not be the better for it afterwards.

Yes, some guys have a hell of a jaw. But if you hit them enough times with body weight, they will fall. And if their jaw really is that good, you can always get a KO by punching them in throat.

Later.

46

RR writes:

t_niehoff - This is actually all your fault, as per usual. You are trying to give a high-school/secondary school lecture to a grade/elementary level student, and getting the well deserved spitballs and f@rt jokes in return for it. RR

LOL! Yeah, you can try to lead a horse to water . . . . :wink: TN

Terence

47

I find myself agreeing with both parties here in some respects.

I believe TN and others are correct when they say that control is paramount, and that a KO is one way of achieving the incapacitation of your opponent. UF - I think you might actually be agreeing with them here, but you need to see the bigger picture. You yourself stated that a strike to the throat is a good knockout technique - but if you don’t knock your opponent out, you’re at least going to give them pause from the gagging they’ll be taking. It’s a form of control that may end the fight, similarly to breaking someones leg off at the knee by delivering a stamping kick would also end a fight (unless it’s the Black Knight and you call it a draw).

I also believe UF is correct (yes, yes, I know..) when he says that a KO is perfectly achievable, and desirable, when a smaller opponent confronts a larger one. vts mentioned a man some time ago who is about 3 times my size and used to train at my school - when he first arrived, he complained that in his work as a doorman he used to hit people, and they’d somehow manage to get back up. Weight won’t always knock out a large opponent. Speed however, is unavoidably able to KO someone provided it is delivered properly. This is not a ‘big man’ issue, everyone has speed, or can attain it and have that usable force. Weight is another matter.

On the original topic - we used to spar wearing slightly padded cotton fingerless gloves (sometimes) and face protection (also sometimes). The gloves were simply to provide some protection against the hard material of the face masks, and didn’t help or hinder our technique. We tried boxing gloves once but I couldn’t stand them so I took them off after some experimentation. The problem with using masks is obvious - people tend to use them as an extra safety barrier and don’t worry so much about getting hit (not to mention you can’t see properly out of some of them). This is bad. Even with gloves on, I tended to pull my strikes a lot - I’m not really that fast, but the speed alone is enough to give people a nasty shock and let them know they’ve been hit, without having to contact much. Gloves were more of an added safety precaution that anything else.

48

UF,

a large portion of fatal and serious fight-related injuries come from an off-balance person falling and striking their head. It is remarkably easy for a smaller, better balanced person to make a bigger person fall down, or come under their control, once the larger person is in motion. You see this very nicely in the dummy apps, which deal with this concept in a more sophisticated way. I have extensive first-hand experience of this from sifu Emin and a number of my seniors, and spent a Saturday a few weeks ago with him trying to explain precisely this idea to a 2tg with whom I was training, using me as a working model.

Incidentally, this was part of Kerspecht’s rationale behind the development of the ‘Blitzdefense’ programs- simple modified dummy apps, hitting hard, but controlling the opponent’s fall to prevent head injury. That’s part of why the lop and step on the foot are used. Dropping someone on their head (and mmmm landing on it) you get to hit them with your bodyweight and their bodyweight. It’s a lovely thing, worth practicing.

If you’re practicing the 1st lat sao program properly, you’re working with a lot of sweeps. The moment weight goes into that front leg before it comes down, it takes minimal force to drop someone. If you have good balance and proper structure, people often just fall on contact with you.

The examples I gave of mount and curb-stomping are a reducto ad absurdum- a gross illustration of fine principle in effect. Later the lop becomes the floor, the jut, the wall.

I’m glad you have such confidence in your punch. It’s misplaced, of course, but I’m sure it makes you feel good.

Go volunteer in an emergency room. Take a look at the sort of trauma people walk away from regularily when hit by several tons of metal, much less what people will keep fighting after. The human body is far more resiliant (and more fragile) than most people conceive.

Personally, I doubt I’ll ever be confident in my punch, elbow, shoulder, hip, knee, or foot. Everything should go out with the idea of setting up the next thing and I will be working on refining my power until the day I die.

Andrew

49

If you guys want to train dumping people on their head I suggest you study Shuai-Chiao. There are takedowns in Wing Chun but not as many, and certainly not emphasized to the same degree.

50

“fa-jing” writes:

If you guys want to train dumping people on their head I suggest you study Shuai-Chiao. There are takedowns in Wing Chun but not as many, and certainly not emphasized to the same degree. FJ

From my perspective, everything in WCK is a defense, an offense, a strike, a lock, a couter-lock, and a throw (takedown) depending on the situation. . . if we don’t see them, it says something about us not WCK. TN

AndrewS writes:

a large portion of fatal and serious fight-related injuries come from an off-balance person falling and striking their head. It is remarkably easy for a smaller, better balanced person to make a bigger person fall down, or come under their control, once the larger person is in motion. AS

Yup. Good point. One aspect of breaking an opponent’s body structure that is often overlooked is how it actually weakens the opponent’s ability to absorb and receive ‘punishment’. Someone off-balance, having a twisted body - for example - is much easier to injure – by strikes, kum na, throws, folds, etc. Of course, it takes real skill to do that to an opponent. TN

Terence

51

Originally posted by AndrewS
[B]UF,

a large portion of fatal and serious fight-related injuries come from an off-balance person falling and striking their head. It is remarkably easy for a smaller, better balanced person to make a bigger person fall down, or come under their control, once the larger person is in motion. You see this very nicely in the dummy apps, which deal with this concept in a more sophisticated way. I have extensive first-hand experience of this from sifu Emin and a number of my seniors, and spent a Saturday a few weeks ago with him trying to explain precisely this idea to a 2tg with whom I was training, using me as a working model.

Andrew [/B]

Yes, using the floor is a method that is very effectrive if used properly, and I am glad that Emin has now incorportaed into what he is teaching. Having studied Judo for over 5 years I can safely say that it is an option I have always considered a major part of my arsenal. But if bumping an opponents head off the floor is what your looking for, try taking wrestling or Judo as they have perfected throws and takedowns that are far more advanced than you will ever learn in wing chun.

When talking about application of Wing Chun, my striking tools- punches, knees and elbows are my most effective weopons. A takedown is an option, but from a WC/WT perspective it is always easier to resolve the issue with strikes to the vital areas.

But I am glad that both yourself and tibbit_hoff appreciate the effectiveness of grappling styles on the street with their copious takedown ability.

52

UF,

using the floor is the first thing you are supposed to learn in all Wing Chun. That’s not sifu Emin’s invention by any stretch.

When it comes to takedowns- there are some beautiful ones in Wing Chun, married to the rest of the art. I’m sorry you’re not training with anyone good enough to make this clear to you.

Out of curiousity, do you knock your opponents out every time during heavy sparring?

Vital areas? Please. Much as I like to hit tender places, and can, if drinks are poured into me with acupuncture chart around, explain the appropriate time of day to do a five-point strike sequence, which should result in death according to TCM theory, I don’t take that garbage seriously. People can be much harder to injure than many folks presume. Go wring a cat’s neck or break someone’s wrist- get a feel for what sort of power is needed to damage tissue.

Fajing,

follow the thread back. This whole ‘dumping people on their heads’ thing comes from discussion of the reliance on knockouts as a fighting strategy, a piece of blatant optimism at best, if not outright self-delusion.

Terence,

that makes a lot of sense, I hadn’t thought of it quite that way before. Thanks. That kinda fits with some of my observations on torso stabilzers affecting the ability to absorb damage- most folks’ torsos can take more of a percussive pounding laying on ground than standing, I think 'cos the engagement of the trunk muscles while standing, makes the body into more of a drumhead, for people who don’t know how to take a blow, if that makes sense.

Later,

Andrew

53

Andrews,

By vital areas I do not mean ‘dim mak’! That is very presumptuous of you and says more about yourself than me. By vital areas I mean no more than targetting the jaw, throat, eyes and genitals with strikes.

I have witnessed some of the more ‘advanced’ WT takedowns and ‘throws’ at several seminars. Good they look particularly in following the principles, but in the area of takedowns you would not do yourself harm to find a good Judokan school and really discover the meaning of a brutal takedown. Believe me they have it mastered better than anyone in the WC/WT lineage.

I also disagree with your loose term ‘using the floor’ as the first thing to be learnt in wing chun. Yes, rootedness is one of the key things taught but that is a WHOLE different ballgame from slams and takedowns as a ‘use of the floor’. Being overly general in trying to tie things together does not do you any favours in comprehending the system.

The first thing you are taught as an attacking movement in wing chun is to hit straght down the centreline. And this is the fundamental principle of the art.

54

Thanks for the lecture UF.

I’ll look you up when I make it over to England.

Andrew

55

What about tactical gloves?

Anyone tried gloves like these?

http://www.outinstyle.com/camo/prods/MILI3454.html

or

http://shop.store.yahoo.com/opsgear/tacticalgloves1.html

And of course Fingerless Vale Tudo Gloves

http://sfuk.tripod.com/reviews/poochgloves.html

56

Hoo doggy. LOL

First, I must thank Andrew for bringign this thread to my attention.

Where to begin lol. First off, you guys sure know how to discuss the most mundane detail into the pavement…pun intended.

I thought this would be easy but it isn’t I find myself agreeing and disagreeing with some of the posts. I guess in the end it comes down to serious realistic training.

As Aldrew aluded to we worked a little on the full contact sparring program that i have been using for a while now. And within WC WT circles, of course you can “practice” with lots of control and without protection. But…if this is where it ends you’re not done…only begining. NHB gloves are a muthaforking godsend. ESPECIALLY for WT techniques. Ditto elbow pads…and knee pads etc.

I absolutely encourage training with control, as long as it’s realistic and “alive”. However, I encourage as soon as you’re done with that, glove up, and add more contact.Isoloate a range or technique you want to use and go for it “for real” without killing each other. build up the level of contact and resistance gradually and you’ll still be able to use your techs at any contact level, with gloves or without.

it doesn’t have to be complicated.

57

planetwc

Thanks for those links! Especially with those reviews!

Stupid question - you know how many bag gloves (i.e. the ones I am using now) have the padded bar across the palm of the mitt…

What does that actually do?

58

UF

‘But if you hit them enough times with body weight, they will fall’

getting body power behind a punch is great for sure - but i was just wondering technically how you achieve that? you seem to disagree with terence who advocates force on impact (which i agree with) and this kind of power uses the body - how do you issue body power with your punch?

just wondering as the strikes and how they issue power are a big headache for me at the moment

cheers

jon