Hate to bring us back to the spirit of my original post -
AndrewS wrote:
Personally, I like NHB gloves or small pillows (covering the back of the hand).
Stupid question - what is a NHB glove? I’m not familiar with the name?
Any picture examples?
The saying “Exert force early, the power is in the arm, exert force late the power, is in the fist” refers to having no tension in the arm when punching. If you punch tensed, the force is retained by the puncher and is not transferred as effectively to the target.
Punching with a relaxed fist is different from the majority of hard styles out there. It causes less damage to the wrist on impact. But there is no mystery about it and it is not fullproof.
t nihoff: It is time to get de-brainwashed if you honestly believe that punching does not damage the hands. If a punch is powerful and connects with the target, it will cause damage regardless. Not to mention from what position you are hitting i.e on the ground or from oblique angles, the bone recieves impact. Learn this or else you will be in for a nasty surprise should you get into a fight and your hands swell up or fracture.
Ultimatesheep writes:
The saying “Exert force early, the power is in the arm, exert force late the power, is in the fist” refers to having no tension in the arm when punching. If you punch tensed, the force is retained by the puncher and is not transferred as effectively to the target. US
There is more to it than that. Listen to your brother in WT, Andrew S. TN
Punching with a relaxed fist is different from the majority of hard styles out there. It causes less damage to the wrist on impact. But there is no mystery about it and it is not fullproof. US
See above. TN
It is time to get de-brainwashed if you honestly believe that punching does not damage the hands. If a punch is powerful and connects with the target, it will cause damage regardless. Not to mention from what position you are hitting i.e on the ground or from oblique angles, the bone recieves impact. Learn this or else you will be in for a nasty surprise should you get into a fight and your hands swell up or fracture. US
I’ve been assaulted and in fights and never had a hand injury (and I have a fairly powerful punch, but nothing to write home about). And the great fighters from our history, from Leung Jan to Wong Sheung Leung to Sum Nung, didn’t seem to have problems either (though I don’t by any means rate with them), and never used any hand protection. IMO, and it is an educated opinion based on over 20 years of WCK experience with many different lineages, if you need hand protection to protect you from injury, it means you are doing something wrong. Period. And in that case I’d advise you to find a good instructor that can help you learn WCK. TN
Terence
You put heavy gloves not to protect your hands but to keep from cutting your training partners as easily.
With well developed wing chun empty hands- you can adjust to gloves. the reverse is much less true.
Sparring is a good training method if done correctly.Sparring is not good for a beginner.They end up moving around like kickboxing and loose the nature of what the system is.Sparring has to be handled just like a session of Chi Sao it has to have specific goals and guidelines.The reason we use protective gear is so that we can use power and there is a less risk of injury.Because a technique used with power has a more dynamic effect,the nature of the exchange is going to be different when two energys meet. By pulling your blows you give your training partner a sked perspective of the outcome of the exchange.Sparring should be part of a balanced curriculum.
Hey Terence,
you’re throwing my initials after stuff UF wrote. Hope that was a typo.
Neurotic,
NHB gloves are open finger gloves with minimal padding. They’re pretty much there to stop you from getting your hands or someone’s face cut. Harbinger makes a nice set.
While Terence can make methodologic comments about hand protection, a nice pair of leather driving gloves (used in old school boxing matches on occasion, ca. Jack Johnson), can keep the teeth out of your knuckles. Given the risks associated with this, I tend to keep a pair on me when I’m going somewhere I feel threatened.
Later,
Andrew
bglenn wrote:
You put heavy gloves not to protect your hands but to keep from cutting your training partners as easily. BG
From my perspective, “cutting my training partners” with my punch is simply not a concern as it just won’t happen; the only way it can happen is if you are exerting a great deal of force prior to contact (to make an impact), and IMHO that is not WCK’s method (it’s boxing’s method, and that’s why they use gloves). TN
The reason we use protective gear is so that we can use power and there is a less risk of injury.Because a technique used with power has a more dynamic effect,the nature of the exchange is going to be different when two energys meet. By pulling your blows you give your training partner a sked perspective of the outcome of the exchange.Sparring should be part of a balanced curriculum. BG
In WCK - at least how I do it - we don’t need to “pull our blows” (this is what folks who throw bombs - like boxers and karateka - need to do), rather since we don’t exert force into the target until after contact is established, we are able to regulate how much force we exert, from a little to a lot. This gives us control. There is a significant difference between strikes that rely on impact to transfer energy and strikes that don’t rely on impact to transfer energy (they only need a contact point). WCK generally relies on the latter method. A good example is when you work on the dummy – you don’t smack it with all your might but make contact first (you’re training to feel for solidity of target) and then exert force suddenly into the dummy. This way of transferring power has a different objective and effect than the impact approach (and is suited for those smaller and weaker than their opponent, and for the close-body, infighting that WCK is famous for). This is why folks in WCK who talk about “going for knockouts” IMO are missing the boat. TN
Terence
Terence, I understand your point about the release of energy and agree completely. When using Cheun Ging(inch power) you express power from your whole body over a longer arc of power .Once you make contact that is only the beginning of transfering force into the target.With using energy that is expressed on impact ,the arc of power is shorter and will not effect the person balance quite the same way as Cheun Ging.Impact energy comes from a quick rotation of the hips and does not carry the weight from the whole body.I think they both have there place.
Originally posted by Neurotic
[B]Thanks for the replies fellows -
In particular to those who wear boxing gloves, how do you find that goes with trapping and pinning, chi sau, etc?
No issues? or issues?
Side note - looking at the mitts used in UFC/Pride/MMA tournaments, seem to be well padded, while offering full hand motion (grabbing, etc) any opinions on those? [/B]
Hi. I personally think that 16 oz boxing gloves are a good way to go for that full-power simulation. Also it is good training for sportfighting if that is something that interests you. No flames please. I am just suggesting that it be a part of your training, not that you shouldn’t train any another way in addition to this or that this would be your sole or even main emphasis. Anyway if you do so, it doesn’t mean your Wing chun flies out the window! You just have to learn how to make the necessary adjustments to your techniques. Concentrate on the basics - punching and kicking, footwork. You should try to use the following blocks, making use of your forearms or in some cases the self-same anatomy of the glove - Tan sao, bon sao, fook sao, jom sao, jut sao, pak sao, lan sao, tok sao, Chum jiang. Fut sao is feasable but I haven’t gotten it to work with the heavy gloves. Instead of Wu Sao, use a stiff punch. Whipping punches are also difficult - instead convert it to more of a horizontal backfist. YMMV. Running hand (jou sao?) is a good one. Rising punch from Chum kiu is a good one, also you should have some kind of a hook, both for fighting purposes and to train against same. Forget about grabbing - instead try to control the opponent’s arms with the palm of your arm. Trapping still works - pak sao lan sao jut sao. Good luck and be safe.
bglenn writes:
Impact energy comes from a quick rotation of the hips and does not carry the weight from the whole body.I think they both have there place. BG
There are many that agree with you. I do not. IMHO WCK’s paramount concern is with control – by connecting to an opponent and controlling ourselves we can control him, and by controlling the opponent we can control the fight. If what we do doesn’t promote control (unless it’s an “emergency technique”) – and if it actually fosters less control (as does expressing power prior to contact; cannon balls don’t have control) – IMO it is a mistake from a WCK perspective. Of course, “mistakes” can be effective depending on the skill level of our opponents or training partners (who may not be able to take advantage of our loss of control). But they carry the seeds of their own eventual failure. TN
Terence
t-neihoff [QUOTE]There are many that agree with you. I do not. IMHO WCK’s paramount concern is with control – by connecting to an opponent and controlling ourselves we can control him, and by controlling the opponent we can control the fight. If what we do doesn’t promote control (unless it’s an “emergency technique”)
You could have a problem connecting with either type of energy.Iam saying they both have there place. You have to recover from any release of energy no matter what type.I am by no means advocating throwing cannonballs.Thanks for the conversation.Bryan
Neurotic,
I’m an Aussie also - my Sifu gets some SWEET Vale Tudo gloves from Sports Master (an Australian Company). Light padding, real leather, beautifully sewn, almost don’t notice you have them on. Full hand movement, grabbing, grappling are all very easy. A bit expensive at around $60 AUS but well worth it.
PM me if you’re interested in exact details and I’ll do more research.
We also train with 10-16 ox boxing gloves. IMO the impairment such gloves provide is less than many argue.
We spar bare handed as well, but you have to have control. That said, a mouthpiece is still essential, unless you like broken teeth or bitemarks in your knuckles from the inevitable accidents.
Originally posted by t_niehoff
[B]
From my perspective, “cutting my training partners” with my punch is simply not a concern as it just won’t happen; the only way it can happen is if you are exerting a great deal of force prior to contact (to make an impact), and IMHO that is not WCK’s method (it’s boxing’s method, and that’s why they use gloves). TN
In WCK - at least how I do it - we don’t need to “pull our blows” (this is what folks who throw bombs - like boxers and karateka - need to do), rather since we don’t exert force into the target until after contact is established, we are able to regulate how much force we exert, from a little to a lot. This gives us control. This way of transferring power has a different objective and effect than the impact approach. This is why folks in WCK who talk about “going for knockouts” IMO are missing the boat. TN
Terence [/B]
Sheesh, another talker. Listen to yourself! I don’t know what or how your sifu has brainwashed you but it is posing a serious risk to yourself and a false sense of security. Explain to me HOW you think there is no risk of cutting your hands on an oponents teeth should you punch him and make contact with his teeth. If the punch is traveling fast enough and it accidently connects with an oppoents tooth, your hands will be cut. Then there is a risk of infection. There is no way round this no matter how you try and punch and no matter how you try and talk about it.
Secondly, your opinion that “folks in WCK who talk of going for knockouts are missing the boat” is not one shared by the WCK community at large. Knocking out an opponent is very often the main aim of the WC fighter in an aggressive encounter. Forget missing the boat, I think you’ve missed the water.
UF,
I disagree with Terence on a number of things, including this issue. Nonetheless, the idea of control he is bringing up is subtle and vastly important. In application, it’s an ideal, a theory, something only achieved on happy occasion with people on your own level skill-wise, and I think to apply well against one’s peers or betters requires a comfort with less technical circumstances.Still, if you wish to gain serious skill, look for what he’s talking about. It’s there in WT, and is one route to the result you want.
On the grossest level, if you pin someone face first to a wall, it’s much easier to knock them out. Slam their head repeatedly into the wall- a nice result of having control, and far less risky than letting them stand in front of you able to plant and deliver. A high level of skill essentially attempts to replicate those conditions without the need of external props in a fluid state, often in very small time.
Andrew
I have had my disagreements with Terence on many things
but I agree with him on the importance of control in wing chun.
Got nothing against gloves- but they- thick or thin- inhibit the development of higher and wider sets of kung fu, atleast wing chun skills.
I know about the boxer’s fracture and the tooth in the knuckle-
but it is possible to develop empty hand skills under pressure
and minimize those happenings..
If “Realism” is a concern- how realistic is it to walk around with boxing, kenpo or other forms of padded gloves-even in frozen areas- one cannot have gloves on all the time.
AndrewS wrote: I disagree with Terence on a number of things, including this issue. Nonetheless, the idea of control he is bringing up is subtle and vastly important. AS
Yuenfen wrote: I have had my disagreements with Terence on many things but I agree with him on the importance of control in wing chun. JC
LOL! I like how you both began with how you don’t agree with me on many things! 
But I’m not surprised you both appreciate the importance of control – I think the longer one practices WCK seriously, and you both fit into that category, the more clearly we see the significance of that factor. FWIW, one way IMO you can tell good WCK from the other stuff is by the level of control (whether one’s movements are ‘tight’ rather than wide and loose; how much control they exert; etc.). A glance at most websites, articles, books, videos, etc. tells you how few appreciate the importance of control, and so fit into that category of “other stuff.” TN
Finally, on another level of “discussion”,
Ultimatesheep writes:
your opinion that “folks in WCK who talk of going for knockouts are missing the boat” is not one shared by the WCK community at large. Knocking out an opponent is very often the main aim of the WC fighter in an aggressive encounter. Forget missing the boat, I think you’ve missed the water. US
You are correct that “the WCK community at large” may indeed believe that “knocking out an opponent is very often the main aim of the WC fighter in an aggressive encounter.” Of course, that isn’t much of a recommendation since 95% of WCK practitioners have very little real skill. And that’s because, in part, their objective is to “knock out their opponent.” What’s good in WCK is not dependent on a consensus. TN
If you pause to consider that WCK is designed (as the historical allegories relate) to allow weaker, smaller persons – like women – to defeat larger, stronger opponents, you may begin to see why obtaining “knockouts” is only a part of what I call “big man WCK”; a small woman will find knocking out a Tank Abbott-type (though another big guy may try) unlikely. But there are ways for her to win, and WCK embraces such an approach. Knockouts may happen, but they are incidental (and more likely come from slamming the opponent’s head into the ground than punching him in the mouth). If your focus (objective) is control - including controlling the opponent - your training (and everything) will be different than if your focus (objective) is knocking out your opponent. TN
Terence
my Sifu gets some SWEET Vale Tudo gloves from Sports Master (an Australian Company). Light padding, real leather, beautifully sewn, almost don’t notice you have them on.
Anerlich - yes please. I will drop you a line, I would be interested in finding out about them… I will do a quick search online first.
Also - thank you to anerlich and fa_jing for actually answering the question as it was intended. Very much appreciated.
Prolly just time for me to simply bite the bullet, and grab a pair of boxing gloves that I like, and see how they feel.
We also train with 10-16 ox boxing gloves. IMO the impairment such gloves provide is less than many argue.
Thanks for that comment - my instinctive reaction to wearing something that inhibits my hand movement is ‘yuck’. However, not having tried them out myself, I am more willing to now.
That also being said - is there an issue with actually seeing around a 16oz boxing glove? I know it sounds silly, however, they are relatively large?
Originally posted by tibbit_hoff
[B]
If you pause to consider that WCK is designed (as the historical allegories relate) to allow weaker, smaller persons – like women – to defeat larger, stronger opponents, you may begin to see why obtaining “knockouts” is only a part of what I call “big man WCK”; a small woman will find knocking out a Tank Abbott-type (though another big guy may try) unlikely. But there are ways for her to win, and WCK embraces such an approach. Knockouts may happen, but they are incidental (and more likely come from slamming the opponent’s head into the ground than punching him in the mouth). If your focus (objective) is control - including controlling the opponent - your training (and everything) will be different than if your focus (objective) is knocking out your opponent. TN
[/B]
Totally and utterly incorrect. The fact that you say this shows your lack of understanding. A smaller oponent such as a women can knock out her opponent if she puts full body weight behind her punches and if they are rooted correctly. Your understanding of this area is what I would expect of your junior level.
Secondly you come to the misguided conclusion that KO’s in Wing Chun are “more likely from slamming an opponents head to the ground than punching him”???
Is this WCK you are doing? Either your punches are very weak or your punching action is wrong. But for you to say that in Wing Chun a KO is less likely to come from a punch than from slamming a guys head to the floor is laughable. Slamming a guys head to the florr requires strength and is not the idea of WCK. Again, your wide of the mark by a good 20 feet.
The answer to this question, IMHO, is the same as the answer to most WCK & (insert blank) questions.
If you have a solid WCK foundation, MMA-style gloves probably won’t make much difference to you. They can spare your knuckles some wear, but can also cause your opponent’s skin some abrasion. There’s an opportunity cost to everything. Boxing and other heavier/more encompassing gloves seem to cause exponentially more interference.
On the other hand, if you don’t yet have a solid WCK foundation, MMA-style gloves could potentially shove you more dramatically down the road to becoming a “WCK” kickboxer, in which case you would be better off studying kickboxing or muay thai proper.
Anerlich is correct in either case. Get a mouthpiece, save yourself some dental/plastics bills, and your partner some potentially nasty infections (though that does make me wonder if Anerlich ever bites anyone in class, only to have Steve-O yell out 'Crickey! What a ripper! That one’s going necrotic! WCK Rules!)
UltimateFighter - Once again I’m reminded of Mark Twain who left home thinking his father was a complete idiot, only to return some seven years later surprised to discover how much the old man had learned in so short a time.
Those of use who know Terence are getting a good chuckle from your posts, which reek of the usual arrogance and ignorance of youth (no offense intended, I was an arrogant and ignorant youth a few years ago, now an arrogant and ignorant thirtysomething).
Terence has been training WCK for well over 20 years, including WT and TWC. He routinely trains at a contact and intensity level (without padding of any kind) that some would deem reckless. He’s also shown a repeated willingness to touch hands with other approaches and change when people show him he has to.
Now, none of that means he’s right and you’re wrong (you could well be wrong without him needing to be right), but it shows something of the experience behind his opinions, which you so easily dismiss out of hand.
You may be a great fighter, even an ultimate one, but WCK=!Fighting, only a systematic methodology to improve fighting.
I don’t know about you, but I personally already know what I know, I come on here so that people with expert knowledge can share their opinions with me, and I can learn from them.
t_niehoff - This is actually all your fault, as per usual. You are trying to give a high-school/secondary school lecture to a grade/elementary level student, and getting the well deserved spitballs and f@rt jokes in return for it.
Andrew S and Joy are correct, as is becoming usual.