Generally, laojia can be stated to be practiced by the older generation who are not into wushutaijiquan mode! Qingzhou may be said to be Old style (Frame)practitioner!
There is no laojia in Yang style. One may call Zhengfu/Zhenduo Xinjia because Luchan took all the obvious Chen style postures and made it a new.modern version and added his name.
The previous exertional level of all styles of taijiquan have been trimmed so much that most today is health exercise and form training. Very few people do gong training so much is lost.
Present lineage Yang style do not teach inner residence yang style (what the %ll is that? What is the exponent’s name who teaches this? I am positive he is not a present Yang recorded lineage member!
There is no Ming dynasty taijquan exponent since the surnames were Chen>Yang>Wu2>Wu3>Sun (recent). Please give a name so I can check on this.
To my recollection there is no Cheng style unless one is referring to Cheng Manqing and he is recent and not in frame of Ming (1644-1911/12?).
I saw the sentence:I believeare laojia’s cannon punch/fists movements.
Yes, Present lineage Yang style does not teach inner residence yang style. The story goes like this: When yang lu chan () started teaching taijiquan. He changed it into something that had softer approach because most of his students were royalties that had poorer physical stamina as comparing with those farmers, soldiers etc. He taught them the real stuffs but one of his sons (I believe it was his elder son, yang ban hou) was unhappy about it cos he felt that the real stuffs should be kept within the yang family. Yang ban hou even took over the teaching & created a new kind of yang style taijiquan, which is the present lineage Yang style.
But one of the student (I can’t recall his name) who was working for one of the royalties refused to gave up his yang style. So an agreement was make between him & the Yang family that he (the student) wouldn’t told others the secret of the real yang style taiji.
Masters & students of inner residence yang style were always under attacked by masters & students of present lineage Yang style until recently. But things had changed as more & more people believed them when inner residence yang style practitioners started publishing their articles & vcds to the public.
The master which you saw on the vcd cover is Li Zheng.He learned both inner residence yang style & present lineage Yang style.
Cheng Man Qing is from Taiwan. He created the Zheng Zi Tai Ji Quan, . Cheng could meant chinese characters of , & many more. That is why I said, “translation could sometime result in giving you the wrong data.”!
Cheng Manqing learnt his taiji from Yang Deng Fu () of the yang family & Ye Da Mi () in shanghai. It was Ye Da Mi, who introduced Cheng Man Qing to Yang Deng Fu. But when he went to Taiwan, he only acknowledged yang deng fu as his taiji master & left out Ye Da Mi cos Yang Deng Fu was much more famous at that time.
Besides Yang Deng Fu, Cheng Manqing also claimed that a Taoism priest named Zuo Peng Lai () & monk called Baggie Monk () taught him MA too. But this was totally unheard of when he was still in shanghai.
Yang Deng Fu & Sun Lu Tang () were both Ye Da Mi’s taiji teachers. Sun Lu Tang is the founder of the Sun style taiji. But Sun style taiji is not a pure taiji because it had included the Ba Gua & Xing Yi’s techniques in it. As for Ye Da Mi, he later created his Ye style taiji.
I see, by looking at the characters I can tell that what jack means by “cheng” style we would understand as “chen” style, as in Chen Wangting, Chen Fake, Chen Xin, Chenjiaguo, etc.
That clears things up a bit. There may be records of that family from Ming times, I’m not aware of any, and they may very well have been doing what we would today call Taijiquan, but I don’t think it was called that then.
As near as I can tell, Yang Luchan and Wu Yuxiang were the first to use the term when they were promoting the art they had learned from the Chens to the Qing court. Yang Luchan and Yang Banhou were also teaching the Palace Brigade of the Qing Imperial Guards, so I doubt they watered it down any for the military, who wouldn’t have been easy to fool. The full transmission is reported to have gone from Luchan and Banhou to Wu Quanyuo, at least.
You mis-translated Yang Chengfu in English, not a typo because you called him Yang “Deng” Fu multiple times and you got Sun Lutang’s name wrong in Chinese. It’s .
Absolutely not true. “Lao Jia” is the appropriate term to refer to all versions of Yang style that pre-date the Yang Chengfu version. Mostly that just means the 108 but there are a few others as well. The style I train is called the “Lao Jia 103” and is a later variant but still from before Yang Chengfu made his contributions to the style.
There is no Ming dynasty taijquan exponent since the surnames were Chen>Yang>Wu2>Wu3>Sun (recent). Please give a name so I can check on this.
To my recollection there is no Cheng style unless one is referring to Cheng Manqing and he is recent and not in frame of Ming (1644-1911/12?).
But Yang Luchan was Ming era. If he was teaching in the imperial palace he was Ming dynast. LATE Ming but who do you suppose he was teaching? The republican army? And what about all those Chen’s, many generations of Chens in the Ming dynasty.
p.s.
I warned y’all this was gonna happen, or at least I tried to.
I caught some crap for coming down on the last guy to post just in Chiense saying I was beeing a hardass or something. Well, enjoy the new world order. KFO has just gone bilingual.
I just look up the dictionary. can be pronounce as cheng or deng. Actually, 's real name is . is his other name.
is in traditional chinese, whereby is in simplified chinese.
Traditional chinese is an old ancient & fully grown wording system being used for thousand of years. Whereby simplified chinese’s history is too short & its system is also incomplete in order to fully replace traditional chinese.
Simplified chinese is much more easy to learn than traditional chinese. But many traditional chinese books, calligraphy & cultures etc. can only be fully understood by knowing traditional chinese.
1In the past, when various Europe empires & America ruled many parts of the world. They had to recorded, pronounced & remember the names of the places, the people & all various stuffs in their own individual ways. And ambiguity started, even in UK & US English too.
As for the Chinese…..In mainland, cheng is & chen is . But in Taiwan & Hong Kong, cheng is It’s ambiguity too.
2Well, Your kind of “lao jia” may not be his kind of “lao jia”. And my kind “lao jia” may not be your kind of “lao jia”. It’s still ambiguity but this time round, it’s in definitions & standards.
In order to end such kind of ambiguity, it will be best if we can go back to the basic. That is the old traditional chen style.
3The founder of taijiquan, chen wang ting () lived in the Ming era, late Ming. Taiji is a MA based on various MAs during the Ming era.
Yang luchan doesn’t lived in the Ming era. He lived in the Qing era. He learned taiji from chen chang xing () of the chen family.
Nevertheless, his name is pronounced Yang CHengfu. As the most famous Taijiquan teacher outside of granpa Yang Luchan, you should know that.
is in traditional chinese, whereby is in simplified chinese.
Got me there.
Traditional chinese is an old ancient & fully grown wording system being used for thousand of years. Whereby simplified chinese’s history is too short & its system is also incomplete in order to fully replace traditional chinese.
Get your head out of the sand. It already HAS replaced traditional Chinese for the VAST majority of Chinese speakers.
But many traditional chinese books, calligraphy & cultures etc. can only be fully understood by knowing traditional chinese.
Bull****. Name one.
You aren’t even fluent in either one yourself. You are in no position to be making this argument.
1In the past, when various Europe empires & America ruled many parts of the world. They had to recorded, pronounced & remember the names of the places, the people & all various stuffs in their own individual ways. And ambiguity started, even in UK & US English too.
Explain how this is relevant to the thread or at least why it was in reponse to one of my posts because it looks like a complete nonesequeter to me.
As for the Chinese…..In mainland, cheng is & chen is . But in Taiwan & Hong Kong, cheng is It’s ambiguity too.
There’s nothing ambigous about that. That’s just your inadequate Chinese showing through again. Either that or your Taiwanese accent. The character is not a Taiwanese versoin of . It is a Taiwanese or rather just traditional writing of which is pronounced “zheng” not “cheng”. Very similar and with a Taiwanese accent probably almost indistinguishable.
2Well, Your kind of “lao jia” may not be his kind of “lao jia”. And my kind “lao jia” may not be your kind of “lao jia”. It’s still ambiguity but this time round, it’s in definitions & standards.
There’s nothing ambiguous about it to anyone with half a brain and at least a high school education in English. You said that there is no “lao jia” in Yang style but there is. No if’s and’s but’s or ambiguity. I can say with absolute clarity that there IS, in fact, “lao jia” in Yang style. The fact that there is also a “lao jia” in Chen style should not be confusing to anyone who is not either totally high or just doesn’t speak English as their first language.
My basic reason for coming down on you over this is that it’s just dumb and pretentious. You are acting kind of like some sort of linguistic or historical elitest when you don’t even have most of this stuff right yourself. What is the point in putting in Chinese characters next to every signifigant name? Are you planning to turn in a book report later? The effete intellectual thing you’ve got going here would work better if you didn’t keep making mistakes with the terminology and then trying to covering it up with meaningless platitudes about the vagueries of the language when in this case it’s not vague at all.
p.s.
Yang luchan doesn’t lived in the Ming era. He lived in the Qing era. He learned taiji from chen chang xing () of the chen family.
1.Yes, most people pronounced his name as Yang Chengfu. But most people did don’t mean others can’t pronounce his name as Yang Deng Fu since dictionary allowed two pronunciation of the same character. I heard others address him as yang dengfu before. People should be allowed to make their selections & choices whenever there is a chance.
By the way, the dictionary I checked is a simplified chinese dictionary.
Actually the first kind of chinese that I learn is simplified chinese, not traditional chinese. But chinese characters system is actually a kind of symbolical wording system. Traditional chinese characters could reflect better than simplified chinese in symbolical expression.
No doubt that simplified chinese characters had replaced traditional chinese characters for majority Chinese speakers. But traditional chinese is an culture asset, an old ancient chinese culture asset. And there are still millions of people using it, even the Korean & Japanese are still using it too. Sometimes, majority don’t mean that it is right to do so.
Why must people destroy it just because of some political differences? This is bad.
By having some knowledge in both simplified & traditional chinese, I know how Sun Lu Tang was written in both simplified & traditional chinese. Can you?
Just imagine, if you only knew simplified chinese & you got no or very little knowledge of traditional chinese. And one day you need to find some info in those old books, calligraphy etc. written in traditional chinese. Would you not have difficulties in reading them or may be miss out something?
If foreign languages were allowed to be taught & used in mainland, why can’t traditional chinese be allowed to continued its existence in this world?
I was just hoping that by stating the dissimilarity of simplified & traditional Chinese; the dissimilarity of the way how mainland PRC, Taiwan ROC, Hong Kong SAR & others’ pronunciation & interpretation of a same character will help non-Chinese speakers or interested personnel to have a better understanding of the ambiguities that happened. This is what I was thinking, at least.
Go check the regional & language options in your operating system. You can see that even under a same language, it was divided into many countries’ uses.
For temporary could you please put down those chinese histories books in your hands & go read up more other histories books of the world. Don’t forget to read up UK & US English books too.
Sometimes I just grouped my answers or views & post them out in one same article. They don’t really have to be addressed directly to someone. Stop thinking that every article or paragraph that replied was out to get you.
7. In traditional chinese, are written in this way. In simplified chinese, are written in this way. If you used mainland’s HanYuPinYin() system, is zheng but if you used taiwan’s GuoYuPinYin(), is cheng. Besides HanYuPinYin & GuoYuPinYin systems, there are others . It also depends on what kind of software that you use too.
Just alone the word, yang in simplified chinese of HanYuPinYin system could have given you characters like & many more.
or is also known as Chow Yun-Fat in Hong Kong, US & other places. Is it wrong for him to use the name of Chow Yun-Fat? And why is he being called Chow Yun-Fat?
Because Chow Yun-Fat is a Hong Kong’s Cantonese! In catonese, is being pronounced as Chow, is being pronounced as Yun & is being pronounced as Fat. There is nothing wrong to use chow for & cheng for !
I am not a linguistic or historical elitest but are you one?
You don’t even know that yang luchan lived in the Qing dynasty.
You don’t even know that can be either pronounce as cheng or deng.
You don’t even know that how sun lutang was written in both traditional & simplified chinese.
You are way worst than me, man.
You don’t have start politics here. There is no need to start another new one here. We already have a lot here.
Yes it DOES mean that others can’t pronounce his name as Yang Dengfu because that’s not his name. The fact that you think multiple entries in a the dictionary for the character means you could go either way with it just highlights your ignorance of how the language works. The English equivalent is called either a heteronymn or a ****graph. Here’s some examples:
For those too lazy to click on the links it’s like english, the word “buffet”. You can’t just swith pronounciations on a whim because the dictionary has 2 of them. The one that means a place to eat and the one that means to get beaten about are distinct and to use one pronounciation in place of the other is just wrong and quite frankly…comical. You can NOT say I was “bufayed” about by the high winds" and be any more correct than going up to the “bufet[/i] for more sausages”. Likewise, the creator of the Yang 88 was Yang CHENGfu, like it or not.
By the way, the dictionary I checked is a simplified chinese dictionary.
Well goodie for you. You are still wrong.
I was just hoping that by stating the dissimilarity of simplified & traditional Chinese; the dissimilarity of the way how mainland PRC, Taiwan ROC, Hong Kong SAR & others pronunciation & interpretation of a same character will help non-Chinese speakers or interested personnel to have a better understanding of the ambiguities that happened. This is what I was thinking, at least.
That’s just it though. There’s nothing ambiguous. Just a lot of people who are wrong. The people who actually are from Taiwan, mainland China or HK can all communicate this stuff with 100% accuracy. The only question is the individual’s level of literacy. It’s only ambiguous if you are speaking English. No need to try and overmystify stuff like that.
skipping past the mountain of vague off-topic political stuff an back to the language issue…
If you used mainlands HanYuPinYin() system, is zheng but if you used taiwans GuoYuPinYin(), is cheng. Besides HanYuPinYin & GuoYuPinYin systems, there are others . It also depends on what kind of software that you use too.
Yes and in the American south “potatoes” are often called “'taters” but that doesn’t make it proper “English” pronounciation. All you are pointing out is that people in Taiwan “talk funny”. Why not just go all the way and bring in the dialects? What about Spainish and Italian? Is the phrase “How are you doin?” ambiguous because Mexicans say “Como estas” and Italians say “Como estai”? (I don’t know how it’s spelledin Italian. Just spelling it like I hear it.)
Yeah. People who speak different languages like Cantonese or Mandarin pronounce things differently. There’s a big revelation. :rolleyes: Comparing Taiwanese speakers to PRC speakers is like comparing British speakers to American. Big deal.
And putting little Chinese characters beside every 3rd phrase in your posts is pretentious as hell. Get over yourself. You just do it at random. There’s nothing confusing about “guoyupinyin” vs. “hanyupinyin”. Get over yourself already.
Just alone the word, yang in simplified chinese of HanYuPinYin system could have given you characters like & many more.
Yes and not one of them is the least bit confusing. If you actually spoke Chinese you’d know that. Speech gives context. How about “bat”. I suppose you often find that ambigiuous as you can never tell if it means something used in baseball, something that flies around at night or something used to take small hits of pot in semi-public areas. In context it should be 100% clear. Same with the phoneme “yang”
or is also known as Chow Yun-Fat in Hong Kong, US & other places. Is it wrong for him to use the name of Chow Yun-Fat? And why is he being called Chow Yun-Fat?
Because Chow Yun-Fat is a Hong Kongs Cantonese! In catonese, is being pronounced as Chow, is being pronounced as Yun & is being pronounced as Fat. There is nothing wrong to use chow for & cheng for !
Wrong again because while “Zhou Runfa” and “Chow Yunfat” are different dialectics’ pronounciation for the same 3 characters, and are not the same character. It’s not traditional vs. simplified. They are just different characters.
I am not a linguistic or historical elitest but are you one?
Yes I am actually. You OTOH, I feel are more of a dilletante.
1.You dont even know that yang luchan lived in the Qing dynasty.
2.You dont even know that can be either pronounce as cheng or deng.
3.You dont even know that how sun lutang was written in both traditional & simplified chinese.
Put your reading glasses on and go back and re-read the same page.
I already posted that I misread your post and mis-spoke.
No. Actually you are just being and idiot. It CAN be pronounced either way, just not in his name. Check the links above on ****graphs for reference.
No. I didn’t “even know” that you were typing in traditional. I see things first in simplified out of habit. I can read traditional stuff just fine. Writing would be a problem but reading is not.
You dont have start politics here. There is no need to start another new one here. We already have a lot here.
That’s actually your own sidetrack. All this business about preserving traditional characters and whatnot. Completely irrelevant to my points which are:
the ambiguity you allude to doesn’t exist.
randomly sprinkling your posts with Chinese characters for no apparent reason is really pretentious.
you mis-read Yang Chengfu’s name and won’t own up to it.
The language sensor removed the letters h o m o from the word “h o m o graphs”.
lol. That’s awsome. It’s not even a swear word. I guess from now on I’ll have to go back to calling them “rump rangers” since the word **** is not allowed here. :rolleyes:
You are just a hardcore Chinese communist member or supporter who tries to prove his/her patriotism by condemning ROC, Taiwan, KMT or traditional Chinese etc. regardless of what the consequences are.
I am interested to join you in this type of extremist game.
You are just a hardcore Chinese communist member or supporter who tries to prove his/her patriotism by condemning ROC, Taiwan, KMT or traditional Chinese etc. regardless of what the consequences are.
I am not interested to join you in this type of extremist game.
You are just a hardcore Chinese communist member or supporter who tries to prove his/her patriotism by condemning ROC, Taiwan, KMT or traditional Chinese etc. regardless of what the consequences are.
I am not interested to join you in this type of extremist game.
It’s pretty simple.. the vast majority of posters here rely on english.. to consistently post in another language is disingenuous.. if you know your stuff post it in english.. if not, keep up the games.. Even those that are Chinese do a respectable job of communicating in english.. English is perhaps the most precise language on the planet (in use today).. if you lack the skills to offer concepts in English i certainly question your Chinese.. if there’s no direct translation use analogies..
To my understanding, present Yang lineage Zhenduo/Chengfu/Zhongwen. Their external characteristics are apparent and deviation is small between them.
Who (by name) is a present day Hidden-inner residence/Laojia style master? Now there are many who claim Yang laojia learning but their forms are not even close!
How come Zhenduo et al are the present lineage but they do not teach inner residence yang style? It is odd if lineage is the standard of excellence and knowledge!!!
I have no idea on 1 and 2 but I can comment on the others.
There is plenty of reason for forms to differ as the term “lao jia” in Yang doesn’t refer to a specific version like it does in Chen. It just means “before Yang Chengfu”. There were already quite a few variations before YCF came along. Yang Luchan’s son’s all taught somewhat differently and then there is the whole “bagua-taijiquan” that you can read about on chinafromtheinside.com which is also called “Yang Style Laojia 103” as opposed to the “standard” laojia which is usually counted as 108.
It’s a catch 22. Some people may complain about all the variation but the answer to that problem is simple: standardization…which has been done. It’s called “contemperary wushu”. If you force everyone to do it the same then that’s what happens.
I know that I have seen other people peforming supposedly the same taiji that I am learning and, yes, it wasn’t even close but then again, on at least one occasion my teacher (in Xi’an) had the opportunity to compare notes with a teacher in Taiwan and found they were identitcal so there are continuous lines. Just no standardization.
Is Yang Zhengduo from the Yang family? That would answer it for you. The Yang family has been very actively promoting the Yang Chengfu style for many years. Yang Chengfu himself created the form for public distribution and that’s what they are doing. I don’t know if or why they still hold the complete transmission from Yang Luchan but even if they do, much of that is even to this day not taught to outsiders. Same thing with my own teacher. He teaches and promotes the YCF style to anyone but his laojia is only taught to long term students and not performed publically.
