If you’re an expert in taiji quan learning new technique from an outside source isn’t suddenly going to negate your taiji experience.
Agreed, and didn’t imply that it would..
Yang taiji has what… just a front heel kick? 2 punches?
Sweeping Lotus Kick (Cut Eyebrow Kick/inside crescent) Punches? if all you can discern is 2 punches, look again..
Yang style form and its derivitives have a lot of great fighting techniques, but is defenitely lacking when it comes to punching and kicking compared to the average san shou fighter. Knowing taiji quan isn’t going to magically give you an awesome side kick (unless it’s a traditional part of the training… like in Chen style for example).
There’s nothing magical about it, if someone trains diligently, follows up with the associated QiGongs, meditations, drills, and fight-training.. all the tools you “need” are available for SanShou, or any other purpose.. Remember, there are people out there that have retained “original Yang”, spirals, FaJing, conditioning, speed, etc…
From my experience(s), Taiji is more than the forms.. it is a set of principles that can be applied to external as well as internal situations.. the principles are universal, from combat to making love.. It is the narrowly focused or those with limited vision that seek to confine Taiji to some rigid traditional set of movements.. Taiji is living dynamic Art, it evolves in the same manner it was created.. through the insights and diligence of dedicated people..
From my experience(s), Taiji is more than the forms.. it is a set of principles that can be applied to external as well as internal situations..
True, but you’re not going to learn how to do a good side thrust kick without learning it from somewhere. And it’s better to learn it from someone who’s really good at it, and has used it extensively rather than try and reinvent the wheel.
Sweeping Lotus Kick (Cut Eyebrow Kick/inside crescent) Punches? if all you can discern is 2 punches, look again..
Sorry, I forgot about the lotus kick. I should’ve rememberd that, I’ve done a Yang taiji form before though it’s been a long time since I’ve practiced it As for the punches… I still really don’t see much variety, at least without modification. At least nothing that would stand up to someone who had good western boxing skills. I’ll try to look again though, as I said it’s been awhile since I’ve practiced or looked closely at Yang Cheng Fu’s taiji. My judgement could be clouded by the fact that I learned boxing techniques and other martial arts before I’d been exposed to taiji quan, so I never needed to look for it in my taiji form. Never NEEDED to practice it as a complete martial art, since I could defend myself fine before.
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If you’re an expert in taiji quan learning new technique from an outside source isn’t suddenly going to negate your taiji experience.
Agreed, and didn’t imply that it would..
I was responding to Yang Yang on that one. I felt he was implying that learning new stuff from a san shou fighter or boxer meant you couldn’t be considered a real taiji person. Like you said, "Taiji is more than the forms.. it is a set of principles that can be applied to external as well as internal situations.. "
If you find a technique(s) that isn’t in your form work that you like, there’s no reason you shouldn’t be able to absorb it into your taiji quan. I mostly practice Sun style now, and it’s a good example of this. Incorperating material from outside sources into taiji quan.
In the Yang long form that I practice there is two side kicks, lotus kick, and about 4 front heel kicks, and there is about five different punches in the form. I don’t know what you guys are talking about, but everything you need is in the tai chi forms. What? You can’t isolate the kicks and punches from the form and train them independently??? I do. Using other arts principles are not the same as TCC principles, if you do that you are only taking yourself away from TCC. That’s my opinion and many others as well. Do what you want, but it takes so long as it is to get the correct body method in TCC, why would you want to go and screw that up by learning how a boxer punches or a kickboxer kicks?? Makes no sense at all to me.
If you pay close attention to the CC Chen guys, you’ll see that the punching is actually pretty different than boxing. You don’t have the jab, cross, hook, uppercut type combos. Instead you have your ‘punch’ which comes from a wide variety of angles (inside of a circle). For the most part, the fist and arm position doesn’t change. The body changes more in relation to the opponent (this comes from Tui Shou) The mecahnics are trained pretty differently too although you end up with something similar (not exactly the same, similar)
As far as Chen Taiji, I’d say study the silk reeling and push hands, and find a good Judo club. Don’t worry about the form or applications.
The difference between Chen and Yang style is not on fighting.
Both Chen Fake and Yang luchan were great fighters, and none of any style Tai Chi masters are good fighter today, except their opponent are their students, though.
Thanks for the good discussion, glad I came back as it took a while to get some response. To further clarify… I have a good background with hsing-i, pa-kua, aikido and some other stuff. I have been doing the combined 24 movement form taught by the chinese government for years, it is supposed to be mostly yang but mixed with other styles.
Now I see a chance to learn from an officially sanctioned Chen teacher. I see little skill in this individual from watching him fight in tournaments. However I am thinking of joining to learn the teachings of Chen and learn from the forms what I can. I like to keep adding to my fighting skills, even though I don’t think I will ever need to harm anyone, fighting builds a strong spirit !
Both Chen Fake and Yang luchan were great fighters, and none of any style Tai Chi masters are good fighter today, except their opponent are their students, though.
How does someone make such an uninformed statement? I can inroduce you to numerous Taiji “fighters” that can hold their own in any venue..
Supposing that a person trains for 20 years in “external” arts then trains for another 15 years focusing on “internal” systems.. then, they insightfully apply the internal principles to all their techniques.. I suggest that they have evolved their fighting skills to be “internal”.. Taiji is just a word, its principles are universal, and we sometimes come off as elitist when we battle of definitions..
There are too many people assuming that the only evidence of a “fighter” is found in sanctioned ring-style matches.. the evidence, by my standards, is observable when the MAist has to use it for real.. it’s a different dynamic on the street, i’ve seen too many "good ring-fighters’ get trashed in the streets.. Most people train for self-defense, not to be the next UFC champion.. It’s almost comical how many students choose their art based on the current dominating style or fighter in sanctioned matches… The single most important quality is the student’s dedication, almost any Martial Art will serve the dedicated student well…
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There are too many people assuming that the only evidence of a “fighter” is found in sanctioned ring-style matches.. the evidence, by my standards, is observable when the MAist has to use it for real.. it’s a different dynamic on the street, i’ve seen too many "good ring-fighters’ get trashed in the streets.. Most people train for self-defense, not to be the next UFC champion.. It’s almost comical how many students choose their art based on the current dominating style or fighter in sanctioned matches… The single most important quality is the student’s dedication, almost any Martial Art will serve the dedicated student well…
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waterdragon said: “As far as Chen Taiji, I’d say study the silk reeling and push hands, and find a good Judo club. Don’t worry about the form or applications.”
Huh??? I understand studying the silk reeling and push hands part, but find a judo club. Are you insane? Why would somebody studing Taijiquan, Chen or otherwise waste time learning Judo which is not even a martial art but was created only as a sport? That would be like a gourmet chef who studies his craft in france with top chefs to add to his cooking skills the art of how to make a burger king whopper. That would only waste time and be detrimental to his advanced training. And don’t worry about the form or applications? Apparently you don’t study any form of chinese martial arts, but in arts like Tajiquan the most important aspect, especially for the beginer, is in training form by training in the form. Without proper form study you have nothing. Don’t even bother studying chinese martial arts because you will never get anywhere. The forms are an essential and indespensible learning tool in your lifelong journey of learning and practicing Tajiquan. Learning applications after you have completely learned and practiced the form for at least a year or two, is also very important, otherwise how else would you know how to use your techniques properly in combat. It usually is a wise idea to know what it is you are practicing or doing .
Good Judo and good Taiji are of common principles..
pudaoking: I hope you’re not serious about Judo not being a Martial Art.. it is, regardless of its lineage.. many of our most beneficial inventions were unintended consequences of other concepts.. The chinese invented gunpowder and used it for fire-crackers.. Judo is quite capable as a self-defense strategy..
Greetings to you TaichiBob, I’m sorry to say I thoroughly disagree with you that Judo is a martial art. Yes it has been taught by some as if it is a martial art, but just because it has some techniques that you could use in a fight and just because it was invented by Jigoro Kano who himself was a master of Jujutsu doesn’t make it any less a sport. Look anywhere on the google search engine under Judo and the people who study it themselves refer to it as a sport. Would you consider a WWF wrestler a real martial artist based on the fact that some of the wrestling techniques could be used by some in combat? How about football. The football players can tackle and take down an opponent, that’s considered a fighting technique is that a martial art? Even my favorite sport, Boxing as effective as it can be out on the street, is still considered a sport, not a martial art. Martial arts are called such because they instill a higher learning in the individual for a complete way of life. They contain a philosophy and theories and principals to follow as well as moral and ethical teachings, they also cover as a complete system a path for spiritual enlightenment, improved health and better quality of life. A martial art is a complete system of self defense both in empty hand and weapons. It should cover all types of situations and be prepared to handle them. Judo has martial capabilities in only a few areas, like throws. Not much more, I believe that judo like sumo is geared as a sport only. Again I am only stating my opinion, I am sure there are Judo practioners out there who could hold their own against lots of martial artists, but it is still a sport.
“It’s usually a wise idea to know what or whom you’re talking about as well. You make a lot of assumptions, most of them are wrong.”
Hi waterdragon, I think I do know what I’m talking about as far as Tajiquan or other chinese martial arts are concerned. I always do thorough research before studying a style I may be interested in, by reading about it’s history and liniage, current masters and practioners around the world who teach it as well as reasearching deeply into the styles theories and principals, techniques and applications. As to whom I am talking to or about, your right I don’t know who you are or what your background is, you could be a master for all I know with thousands of students worldwide, I am only commenting on what information you have given in your posts. I think what you said regarding Chen style Taijiquan was extemely inncorrect, so I said so. As far as making assumptions which you claim are wrong, elaborate a little so I can understand where I errerd. Maybe your right and I assumed what I said about you not studying chinese martial arts is incorrect, and maybe I was a little harsh in the way I reffered to Judo as being beneath Taijiquan and detrimental to someone studying internal arts, so on that topic I apologize to people that practice that sport, but in regards to what I said about the importance of form and applications I know I am right on that subject. And if you do study traditional chinese martial arts, how can you dismiss form and applications when they are the core and foundation of your training?
The base of Chinese martial arts are the way they develop and use power. The forms are simply one way to practice using that power. Forms are a small part of any ‘traditional’ school of CMA. They have much more painful things to occupy your time, lol. Right now, I’m coaching this kid who hits like a bulldozer, but he’s real tense and tires himself out easily. He’s also pretty slow. I have him practicing The Tan Ging Hay from Southern Mantis so he can get some relaxed power. My guys also practice the Chicken Step from Xing Yi to develop some stiffness on the jab. Pretty soon we’ll start doing a little push hands to develop defense. We practice Muay Thai and MMA.
Remember from your history what Chen was designed for. It was a battle field art at a time when people fought in armor. So was Judo. The ‘original’ Chen would have been something used as a last ditch effort if you lost your weapon. So was Judo.
My opinion is that the kid would be better off learning the Silk Reeling, and push hands and going to a Judo club if his intention is to learn how to fight. That’s simply my personal opinion based on my own experience.
This romanticized bull**** is tiresome. Pebble snatching fantasy boys who saw too many Kung-fu episodes on TV. :rolleyes:
Besides which, if you understood half the words you used there you’d see that all that junk can be found in just about any endeavor, from Kyudo to boxing, to cooking, fer cryin out loud. Give it a rest.
