What is your conception of Wing Chun Kuen?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

Re: Re: What is your conception of Wing Chun Kuen?

Originally posted by Knifefighter
I think it is a theoretical concept of how fighting “should” be. Unfortunately, I think it was developed with too much theory and not enough testing- lots of great theory that doesn’t hold up by the average practitioner in the real world.

That’s an interesting take, and something I’ll continue to think about. I agree that envisioning how fights “should” be is a trap.

I don’t think I fully agree about the cause and effect relationship of a theoretical system resulting in lower levels of demonstrated performance. I think there are other and possibly more relevant factors, such as that most of us simply don’t put what we need to into our training in order to be more experienced, skillful and effective. We (the general “we,” not everyone) don’t fully “realize” even what little we do understand. I just don’t think the “theory” is at fault, it’s us - our failure to fully understand the theories and internalize them through experience. I don’t presume this is precisely what you’re getting at, though maybe it’s close and I’m just being too semantical.

In any event, I do think we would be better served by being better learners and harder workers; of course this applies to everyone, even those ahead in the developmental curve. There will perpetually be debates on the “best” or “right” way to accomplish higher results, but hopefully many of us can agree at least on this much.

FWIW, my teacher often reminds us “Smart people tend not to work hard. Don’t rely on smartness.” Maybe that’s what you’re really getting at.

Regards,

  • Kathy Jo
22

What knifefighter is getting at, I believe, relates to how folks believe WCK “should be” – which for most is a purely theoretical view. For example, how can someone judge whether some person, including themselves, has “good WCK”?

23

Originally posted by t_niehoff
What knifefighter is getting at, I believe, relates to how folks believe WCK “should be” – which for most is a purely theoretical view. For example, how can someone judge whether some person, including themselves, has “good WCK”?

Hi Terence, and thanks. Certainly we all have some overlaps in viewpoint.

I’ve little doubt that Dale shares a deep interest and concern about validating one’s skills, and no doubt fighting skills in particular, as you are.

I presume Dale holds a unique combination of his own ideas too, as we all do. Who knows, maybe he does have some particular interest in validating Wing Chun also, though I don’t assume it. I and I’m sure some others would still be interested to understand his perspective on things from his viewpoint a little more clearly if he’s inclined to it. Naturally I don’t always hold his same perspective, but he has certainly earned his viewpoint and I respect it.

Regards,

  • Kathy Jo
24

KJ- Taking your thread starting post more seriously…

  1. There are lots of good fighting systems.WC is not the only way to fight. Better to get a first class boxing or grappling instructor than a bad wc instructor.

  2. For me wing chun is a very effective fighting system. I came to wing chun after doing some of what today would be called some mma…I found wing chun to provide a solid comprehensive foundation.

  3. Wing chun is not a collection of techniques. Many of the things that we do- forms, drills, chi sao etc are for good development.
    Without the development lots of things wont work-- and if we engage only in primitive induction and inferences from what is very loosely called fighting we would do a very generalized form of fighting without developing long run skills.

  4. Development should lead to testing. Its upto each person to figure out depending on country, region, laws etc how they will test whether what they know works. Controlled testing of various kinds are possible. We dont detsroya country to know whther an advanced nuclear device works. A real fight is a real fight- where your life maybe at stake. The rest is simulation of one kind or another. Clear headed judgements are important and wing chun training helps- why chase hands- if someone wants to rob me of 5 dollars- I give it to them. If they attck my niece or mother its a differnt thing. Wing chun calibrates the appropriate response.

  5. Wing chun is for self defense. Unfortunately again IMO only, many folks have a narrow view of what “self” means. Sensing trouble brewing involves heightened awareness. Knowing the weaknesses of structures is a form of self defense. You can destroy an unbalanced person more easily than a balanced one.

  6. Protection of the body, the mind and one’s spirit- energy are all part of self defense. Great MA should develop all parts of the body
    for self defense- ina coordinated way. Wing chun to me does that- it is not just for striking and not just for fists.

  7. Once the concept of the developed self in wing chun self defense is understood one can adapt to different situations and even import and transform things into the wing chun way. Thus the pole came from the outside but was adapted for wing chun dynamics.We use it differntly from hung gar.
    Double knives were imported but their usage transformed in the wing chun way not the hung gar way.. Once you enter the wing chun gate all of nature is there to be explored. You dont want to be stuck ata beginners level going and knocking from gate to gate, ofcourse IMO.

  8. Wing chun can be used for stopping or winninga fight even before it begins. Its not just san sou. People can play wing chun at various levels.

  9. I find the distinction between a theorist and a fighter somewhat arbitrary. In boxing… Cus D’Amato was (in his time) botha fighter and a theorist. If you learn only inductively you could be like a friend of mine who fought Floyd Patterson twice -
    learned only by fighting- and ended up a punch drunk sorry figure
    without much judgement. But a friend nevertheless.One must balance things.

PS. A fight is a fight- you dont stop and ask if its the 21st century.
The dynamics dont completely change with the lowering of the ball in Times Square on New Year’s eve.. My own perspective- not imposed on anyone else- comes both from fighting and beinga book worm…
and not being other directed-self defense uber alles. Watch out for everything!

25

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Clear headed judgements are important and wing chun training helps- why chase hands- if someone wants to rob me of 5 dollars- I give it to them. If they attck my niece or mother its a differnt thing. Wing chun calibrates the appropriate response.

A while back a group of students and I went to a restaraunt after class. We ate and visited and had a good time. As we were leaving, a pretty drunk customer stumbled into me. He turned around and started yelling at me to watch where I was going. I apologized.

Outside, one of the newest students asked “Why did you apologize? It was his fault, and you have Wing Chun and he was drunk.”

My response? “Wing Chun is about efficiency. What’s more efficient that not having to lift a finger?”

-Levi Melton

26

Joy wrote:

KJ- Taking your thread starting post more seriously…

  1. There are lots of good fighting systems.WC is not the only way to fight. Better to get a first class boxing or grappling instructor than a bad wc instructor.

**It has more to do with the sort of training one does than anything else, including the “level” of instruction.

  1. For me wing chun is a very effective fighting system. I came to wing chun after doing some of what today would be called some mma…I found wing chun to provide a solid comprehensive foundation.

**If you don’t fight, how can you say it provides anything? WCK is an approach, it “provides” nothing; it is the person that needs the solid foundation of skills.

  1. Wing chun is not a collection of techniques. Many of the things that we do- forms, drills, chi sao etc are for good development.
    Without the development lots of things wont work-- and if we engage only in primitive induction and inferences from what is very loosely called fighting we would do a very generalized form of fighting without developing long run skills.

**And you can’t tell that you have “long run skills” unless you fight. Otherwise, all you have is some sort of theoretical inference of skills.

  1. Development should lead to testing. Its upto each person to figure out depending on country, region, laws etc how they will test whether what they know works. Controlled testing of various kinds are possible.

**Controlled testing? If you are trying to become a better fighter, you need to test what you are doing in a fight. No other way.

We dont detsroya country to know whther an advanced nuclear device works. A real fight is a real fight- where your life maybe at stake. The rest is simulation of one kind or another.

**This is theoretical nonsense. I’ve been in “real fight”, streetfights, whatever you want to call them. Lots of people have. Rarely if ever will someone ever fight to the death. Please. The idea is to develop greater fighting skills, skills you can use whatever the venue, whatever the situation. And you do that by practicing those skills – practicing as you’ll really do them, against the same sort of resistance you’ll really face, with the same level of intensity you’ll really face, etc. If you don’t do that, you have nothing.

Clear headed judgements are important and wing chun training helps- why chase hands- if someone wants to rob me of 5 dollars- I give it to them. If they attck my niece or mother its a differnt thing. Wing chun calibrates the appropriate response.

**That’s not WCK, that’s just good common sense. Stop trying to make WCK into all these things it’s not.

  1. Wing chun is for self defense. Unfortunately again IMO only, many folks have a narrow view of what “self” means. Sensing trouble brewing involves heightened awareness. Knowing the weaknesses of structures is a form of self defense. You can destroy an unbalanced person more easily than a balanced one.

**Wing chun is a kuen faat (fighting method) – not a “self-defense” “system”. You’re projecting you’re own philosophical leap. But theoreticians can claim it is anything, even a vehicle for spiritual growth.

  1. Protection of the body, the mind and one’s spirit- energy are all part of self defense. Great MA should develop all parts of the body
    for self defense- ina coordinated way. Wing chun to me does that- it is not just for striking and not just for fists.

**More grandiose, theoretical claims. But then, if you don’t have the fists, it has to be about something. If you have the fists, then it doesn’t need to be about anything else.

  1. Once the concept of the developed self in wing chun self defense is understood one can adapt to different situations and even import and transform things into the wing chun way. Thus the pole came from the outside but was adapted for wing chun dynamics.We use it differntly from hung gar.
    Double knives were imported but their usage transformed in the wing chun way not the hung gar way.. Once you enter the wing chun gate all of nature is there to be explored. You dont want to be stuck ata beginners level going and knocking from gate to gate, ofcourse IMO.

**More speculation based on “history” – we don’t know where the knives, pole, or fists came from. Or which came first, or even if one did come first. To think of WCK as “self-defense” is a dead end, a philosophical dead end. WCK is an approach toward fighting and a means to train that. Nothing more. Of course, folks can project what they like, they can believe that they are modern day warrior monks too. In the end, it comes down to do you have good fighting skills or not. And there is only one way to tell. If you don’t have the skill, then you are wrong, your idea is wrong, your concept is wrong, everything is wrong. If you do have skill, then you are right, your idea is right, your concept is right, everything is right. How right or how wrong? That depends on the level of skill you can fight at.

  1. Wing chun can be used for stopping or winninga fight even before it begins. Its not just san sou. People can play wing chun at various levels.

**Oh, boy.

  1. I find the distinction between a theorist and a fighter somewhat arbitrary. In boxing… Cus D’Amato was (in his time) botha fighter and a theorist. If you learn only inductively you could be like a friend of mine who fought Floyd Patterson twice -
    learned only by fighting- and ended up a punch drunk sorry figure
    without much judgement. But a friend nevertheless.One must balance things.

*It’s fine to be a theorist IF one is a fighter. Theory without true application (fighting) is intellectual m@sturbation.

PS. A fight is a fight- you dont stop and ask if its the 21st century.
The dynamics dont completely change with the lowering of the ball in Times Square on New Year’s eve.. My own perspective- not imposed on anyone else- comes both from fighting and beinga book worm…
and not being other directed-self defense uber alles. Watch out for everything

**What fighters do you fight with, Joy?

27

Taltos,
good post.
It’s good to know that you’re level headed.

J

:slight_smile:

28

KJ asked an honest and simple question…what is YOUR conception of Wing Chun. Joy stated his in an honest way. If your conception of Wing Chun differs from Joy’s or anyone else’s then fine…state your own conception of WCK and leave it at that, you don’t have to launch an attack on what someone else thinks. But along comes Terence to once again to beat into the ground the same old refrain…“fight!fight!fight! or your Wing Chun is worthless!” KPM

  1. For me wing chun is a very effective fighting system. I came to wing chun after doing some of what today would be called some mma…I found wing chun to provide a solid comprehensive foundation.

**If you don’t fight, how can you say it provides anything? WCK is an approach, it “provides” nothing; it is the person that needs the solid foundation of skills.

Joy stated that WCK provides a “solid comprehensive foundation”. I think that’s a pretty good assessment. What “comprehensive foundation” do you start from to develop all your fighting skills Terence? Did you just jump right into a Saturday night tussle without knowing anything at all? KPM

  1. Wing chun is not a collection of techniques. Many of the things that we do- forms, drills, chi sao etc are for good development.
    Without the development lots of things wont work-- and if we engage only in primitive induction and inferences from what is very loosely called fighting we would do a very generalized form of fighting without developing long run skills.

**And you can’t tell that you have “long run skills” unless you fight. Otherwise, all you have is some sort of theoretical inference of skills.

And you also won’t develop any long run skills without a solid comprehensive foundation to build from, so your logic is a bit disjointed. KPM

  1. Development should lead to testing. Its upto each person to figure out depending on country, region, laws etc how they will test whether what they know works. Controlled testing of various kinds are possible.

**Controlled testing? If you are trying to become a better fighter, you need to test what you are doing in a fight. No other way.

Once again “fight!fight!fight!” How about some honesty in your statements Terence? This is really getting old. Its clear now that you aren’t talking about routinely going out on a Saturday night to the local nightclub parking lot to look for fights in order to practice your WCK. You are talking about progressive sparring drills, and this IS part of “controlled testing.” When you do your regular “fighting” in the training hall don’t you often do it with the understanding that your opponent isn’t going to pull out a knife on you? That is part of “controlled testing.” KPM

  1. Wing chun is for self defense. Unfortunately again IMO only, many folks have a narrow view of what “self” means. Sensing trouble brewing involves heightened awareness. Knowing the weaknesses of structures is a form of self defense. You can destroy an unbalanced person more easily than a balanced one.

**Wing chun is a kuen faat (fighting method) – not a “self-defense” “system”. You’re projecting you’re own philosophical leap. But theoreticians can claim it is anything, even a vehicle for spiritual growth.

So Terence…you don’t think WCK helps one develop “common sense”?..you don’t think WCK is any good for “self-defense” situations?..you don’t think WCK can be a vehicle of “spiritual growth”…you don’t think WCK has any value other than to teach someone how to “kick butt”? It seems you have a pretty narrow conception of what WCK is or can be. But that’s OK. You are entitled to hold your own conception. But why attack someone elses? KPM

  1. Protection of the body, the mind and one’s spirit- energy are all part of self defense. Great MA should develop all parts of the body
    for self defense- ina coordinated way. Wing chun to me does that- it is not just for striking and not just for fists.

**More grandiose, theoretical claims. But then, if you don’t have the fists, it has to be about something. If you have the fists, then it doesn’t need to be about anything else.

If you are a person that regularly has to put themselves in situations of grave bodily danger that you need to prepare for, or if you are just a violent-minded person in general and all you want to do is “fight!fight!fight!” then maybe it doesn’t need to be about anything else. But many of us have a broader view of what WCK can be. Sorry your outlook is so limited, but again, you are entitled to your own conception. KPM

**What fighters do you fight with, Joy?

What fighters do you fight with, Terence? And where are the video clips of those fights? You’ve already been asked to “put up or shut up.” Where is the evidence that your approach produces such superior results? Where is the evidence that you actually “practice what you preach”? Where is the video footage showing you going “all out” doing WCK against a skilled, determined boxer or grappler? Like I’ve said before, until you show us that, everything you write in this forum is just as much being a “theoretician” as everyone else. Until then all we can do here is talk…talk theory…you included. KPM

Keith

29

Some are holistically minded. Others are narrow minded.

30

No worries. I became immune to Terence’s same old fight fight
THEORY posts some time ago. Terence like many folks have some good points- but by mechanical repetition in posts- run their points to the ground.

Then there are non wc trolls who want to be convinced of something or the other.

We usually miss important opportunities for sharing relevant information. The way wing chun has come down—and with varying teaching methods and learning time of students—
gems of wing chun are there in many different lineages. If trolls and chest beating can be ignored- a point that Ray made some time ago—folks can learn a lot by cross referencing how different schools and
lineages of wing chun approach some common problems and then judge and try out for oneself.

So- in answering

“**What fighters do you fight with, Joy?”…

I fight ignorance every day- it takes on different forms, sometimes as myself sometimes as others .

31

PART1

KPM wrote:

**Apparently, we can share our opinions but not question those opinions. God forbid we challenge anyone to support their views.

But along comes Terence to once again to beat into the ground the same old refrain…“fight!fight!fight! or your Wing Chun is worthless!” KPM

**And look at Keith’s very next line . . .

  1. For me wing chun is a very effective fighting system.

**LOL! WCK is not a “very effective fighting system”, and even if it were, that is beside the point if you can’t make it work – then it is nothing but a liability. It is we that make it effective or not; not the “system”, and that’s a really poor choice of words (one that theoretican’s love btw), it doesn’t exist outside of our own individual skill. And if you are not fighting, then you have no fighting skill, and your WCK is not a “very effective fighting system.” Then it’s just a “theory”, i.e., in theory it should be effective. And fwiw, where is the evidence that it is a “very effective fighting system”? Where are all the effective fighters it has produced? You?

I came to wing chun after doing some of what today would be called some mma…I found wing chun to provide a solid comprehensive foundation.

**It’s not the art, it is how we train that matters more.

Joy stated that WCK provides a “solid comprehensive foundation”. I think that’s a pretty good assessment. What “comprehensive foundation” do you start from to develop all your fighting skills Terence? Did you just jump right into a Saturday night tussle without knowing anything at all? KPM

**WCK doesn’t “provide” anything other than information, information that we can put to use; the “foundation” (of skills) comes from our training – what it is we actually do. Whether a person has a “good foundation” or not can only be determined by testing that individual, by fighting. You are then testing the individual, not testing WCK.

  1. Wing chun is not a collection of techniques. Many of the things that we do- forms, drills, chi sao etc are for good development.

**In a sense WCK is a collection of techniques, it has tools such as tan, bong, fook, punch, etc. The forms and/or sets provide us with those ways of using our body. I agree that we need those, and we need drills as part of oour development. But forms and drills won’t – and no one has ever shown otherwise – develop significantly better fighting skills. Only fighting as part of our training does that. What theoreticans don’t seen to grasp is that by fighting, I don’t mean just mixing it up doing anything at all, but fighting while trying to use your method. A wrestler or BJJist goes out onto the mat and fights, not just using “anything at all” but trying to use the strategies and tools of their respective methods. That’s what we should do to. That’s how all fighters develop greater skills. Do you know some good WCK fighter that has done it differently?

And you also won’t develop any long run skills without a solid comprehensive foundation to build from, so your logic is a bit disjointed. KPM

**I’ve said over and over again that there are three steps - 1) learn the tool, 2) drill the tool, and 3) put that into fighting practice - with this actually being a developmental loop. This is how all good fighters train. Do you know any good WCK fighters that train differently? You?

Once again “fight!fight!fight!” How about some honesty in your statements Terence? This is really getting old. Its clear now that you aren’t talking about routinely going out on a Saturday night to the local nightclub parking lot to look for fights in order to practice your WCK. You are talking about progressive sparring drills, and this IS part of “controlled testing.”

**I have no idea what you mean by “progressive sparring”. I mean putting these things under the same conditions that you intend to use them, against full power, full intensity, where your opponent is really trying to pound you, really trying to resist you, etc. And with skilled opposition.

When you do your regular “fighting” in the training hall don’t you often do it with the understanding that your opponent isn’t going to pull out a knife on you? That is part of “controlled testing.” KPM

**When boxers get in the ring and box, wrestlers go out on the mat and wrestle, muay thai fighters get in the ring, BJJist roll on the mats, they are fighting – it is a “sport” because, as you say, no one is going to pull a knife and you can tap – but the training is as intense, with the resisitance, etc. as they will meet.

So Terence…you don’t think WCK helps one develop “common sense”?..

**Not necessarily. I’d say the prevalence of folks that think they can develop greater fighting skills without fighting proves that it doesn’t! :wink:

you don’t think WCK is any good for “self-defense” situations?..

**It depends. If one uses WCK to develop greater fighting skills and one need to fight as part of “self-defense” (90% of self-defense IMO doesn’t involve fighting), then it can help you. But it won’t help you in many fighting situations: it won’t help you on the ground, in a body-to-body clinch, etc. If it’s self-defense you’re after, your time will be better spent IMO taking a really good self-defense course; there is no point spending the time and doing the hard work necessary to develop really good fighting skills. Why put in the training to become a really good boxer or BJJ black belt for “self-defense”? You don’t need that level of training.

32

Part 2

KPM wrote:

you don’t think WCK can be a vehicle of “spiritual growth”…

**Anything can be a vehicle for spiritual growth. As I told the HFY guys on their list, if you want spiritual growth, volunteer at an aids hospice or a home for battered children – you’ll get more spiritual growth in a day than WCK will give them in years. If you want to role play that you are a modern day shaolin monk, fine – but that won’t lead you to spiritual growth. Moreover, any spiritual growth you do get from WCK comes in the trenches – from the fighting, from putting your @ss on the line.

you don’t think WCK has any value other than to teach someone how to “kick butt”? It seems you have a pretty narrow conception of what WCK is or can be.

**You can ask the same question of BJJ – has it value besides developing good groundfighting? Sure, it can. You can make friends, get into good shape, live an athletic lifestyle, come to appreciate its wider implications, etc. But developing good groundfighting skills is the first and foremost priority – everything else stems from that. Could someone not practice BJJ “combatively” and still get those things? Not IMO.

But that’s OK. You are entitled to hold your own conception. But why attack someone elses? KPM

**It’s not an “attack” but a challenge – people can spew nonsense, that’s their right; similarly, I have the right to challenge them on it. You, for example, might hold that all one has to do is the forms to become highly skilled (this is just an example). You can properly hold that view. You can express it. I can tell you that you are wrong. And ask you if you have ever tested that notion, have you ever seen anyone with that view that did have those skills, etc. Your retort would seem to be – show me a video of yourself in action to prove that doing drills actually helps your development. My response: do the drills yourself and see if there is a difference in your development.

If you are a person that regularly has to put themselves in situations of grave bodily danger that you need to prepare for, or if you are just a violent-minded person in general and all you want to do is “fight!fight!fight!” then maybe it doesn’t need to be about anything else. But many of us have a broader view of what WCK can be. Sorry your outlook is so limited, but again, you are entitled to your own conception. KPM

**It’s not that you have broader views, it’s that you want WCK to be everything but what it is – a fighting method. Why? Because you’re not fighting, you’re not developing fighting skills. So WCK has to be something “broader.”

What fighters do you fight with, Terence? And where are the video clips of those fights? You’ve already been asked to “put up or shut up.” Where is the evidence that your approach produces such superior results? Where is the evidence that you actually “practice what you preach”? Where is the video footage showing you going “all out” doing WCK against a skilled, determined boxer or grappler?

**Come to Cleveland and bring your cup and mouthpiece (well, maybe leave the cup at home since you’re probably one of those that believes your “knees in” adequately protects your groin! :wink: ) and we can mix it up person-to-person. Video proves nothing. Nothing. People see what they want to see; they project what they want to believe. If you saw clips of me, just like when you saw clips of those Estonian WCK practitioners I posted, all you would say is “that’s poor WCK”, etc. These things aren’t objective – where you can look and judge it based on some objective criteria determine if it is good or bad – they are subjective (I look good against someone less skilled and bad against someone better skilled). In person, when you put your @ss on the line, then there can be no question. And whatever my skill level is, it has nothing to do with your skill level – what you can do. If you believe that you have superior fighting skills, then you should be willing to put yourself to the test to see. Not by videotaping yourself, but putting your @ss on the line to see for yourself – that’s my point. I’ve seen for myself; I know what I can and cannot do – I know my skill level.

Like I’ve said before, until you show us that, everything you write in this forum is just as much being a “theoretician” as everyone else. Until then all we can do here is talk…talk theory…you included. KPM

**You miss the whole point of what theory is – my personal abilities has no relevance to you, or it least it shouldn’t. If you are doing it because I say so or because I can do it, then it is still theory to you. It’s not “theory” when you do it. If you believe what you do is developing greater fighting skills, that is theory unless you know from your having fought skilled fighters (otherwise how do you kow? So it is just theory.). If you want to look at evidence, you don’t need to look to me – look to how any really good fighters train and compare those to how most TCMAists, including WCK people, train. It’s right before your eyes. If you think your way of training produces good results, test those results by fighting skilled fighters and see for yourself. My challenge is to put yourself to the test, to see for yourself, to stop believing in theory (history, hearsay, myths).

33

Hi Terence

"Anything can be a vehicle for spiritual growth. "

True enough

"As I told the HFY guys on their list, if you want spiritual growth, volunteer at an aids hospice or a home for battered children – you’ll get more spiritual growth in a day than WCK will give them in years. "

For you, under what your conception of spiritual growth is. Volunteer work is certainly work worthy of praise, but it is up to the individual to determine what the best vehicle for spiritual growth is to him or her. What is and isn’t spiritual is a a very personal and individual thing. As a “modern American” who values control over his own destiny and doesn’t allow other people to tell him what to do or how to think, I’m sure you’ll appreciate this point.

"If you want to role play that you are a modern day shaolin monk, fine – but that won’t lead you to spiritual growth. "

Not for you, under what your conception of spiritual growth is.

“Moreover, any spiritual growth you do get from WCK comes in the trenches – from the fighting, from putting your @ss on the line.”

For you, under what your conception of spiritual growth is.

Or do you presume, just as you do with WCK, that you know the one true definition for “spiritual growth”, and that it should be the same for everyone? If not, how can you presume to know what the “best way” it is to attain it? But if you really do presume to know, then I suppose I just wasted a bunch of time typing. :slight_smile:

Regards,
Alan

34

Terence wrote:
**Apparently, we can share our opinions but not question those opinions. God forbid we challenge anyone to support their views.

You are not a very good reader Terence. As I was pointing out before, Joy shared his “conception” of WCK, as KJ requested. You are perfectly free to share your “conception” of WCK as well. But there is no need to attack what Joy has to say in order to do it. KPM

**And look at Keith’s very next line . . .

  1. For me wing chun is a very effective fighting system.

Once again Terence, you are not reading very closely. I didn’t write that, Joy did. KPM

Joy stated that WCK provides a “solid comprehensive foundation”. I think that’s a pretty good assessment. What “comprehensive foundation” do you start from to develop all your fighting skills Terence? Did you just jump right into a Saturday night tussle without knowing anything at all? KPM

**WCK doesn’t “provide” anything other than information, information that we can put to use; the “foundation” (of skills) comes from our training – what it is we actually do. Whether a person has a “good foundation” or not can only be determined by testing that individual, by fighting. You are then testing the individual, not testing WCK.

So I’ll ask the question again, that you so conveniently skipped over. Did you just jump right into a Saturday night tussle without knowing anything at all? Did you know any technique?..have a foundation in any kind of reactive response?..have any structure to work from? It must not have been from WCK, since you deny that it provides any kind of foundation to work from. KPM

And you also won’t develop any long run skills without a solid comprehensive foundation to build from, so your logic is a bit disjointed. KPM

**I’ve said over and over again that there are three steps - 1) learn the tool, 2) drill the tool, and 3) put that into fighting practice - with this actually being a developmental loop. This is how all good fighters train. Do you know any good WCK fighters that train differently? You?

OK. I still think your logic is disjointed. Just where do these tools that you are learning and drilling come from? Sounds like that they aren’t coming from WCK, since you deny that it provides any kind of “foundation.” You must be developing them from a vacuum. Do you know any good WCK fighters that aren’t using the WCK that was taught to them as a foundation to start from? You? KPM

**I have no idea what you mean by “progressive sparring”. I mean putting these things under the same conditions that you intend to use them, against full power, full intensity, where your opponent is really trying to pound you, really trying to resist you, etc. And with skilled opposition.

You know very well what it means. You are still skirting the issues and the points simply to keep saying that same old thing. You totally skipped over the “controlled” aspect that Joy originally mentioned and that I supported. Go ahead Terence, just ignore whatever anyone tries to point out to you and keep saying the same old thing. KPM

When you do your regular “fighting” in the training hall don’t you often do it with the understanding that your opponent isn’t going to pull out a knife on you? That is part of “controlled testing.” KPM

**When boxers get in the ring and box, wrestlers go out on the mat and wrestle, muay thai fighters get in the ring, BJJist roll on the mats, they are fighting – it is a “sport” because, as you say, no one is going to pull a knife and you can tap – but the training is as intense, with the resisitance, etc. as they will meet.

And it is still in a “controlled” setting. In routine training the boxer assumes that his opponent isn’t going to kick him in the groin…the grappler assumes that his opponent isn’t going to gouge out his eyes or fish-hook him…the Thai boxer assumes that his opponent isn’t going to shoot in for a takedown. They also don’t go at 100% intensity 100% at the time. The boxer may do light sparring with his partner and switch the roles back and forth between who is the aggressor while wearing headgear. This might progress to higher intensity sparring, but still with headgear. This might progress to an actual match without headgear, etc. This is PROGRESSIVE sparring. I’m sure grapplers do something similar. So don’t be so obtuse. You know very well what we have been talking about. You just don’t want to acknowledge it. KPM

Keith

35

Terence continues with Part 2:

**Anything can be a vehicle for spiritual growth.

Glad to see you acknowledge that much. KPM

Moreover, any spiritual growth you do get from WCK comes in the trenches – from the fighting, from putting your @ss on the line.

Once again, sorry you have such a limited conception of what WCK is or can be. KPM

**It’s not that you have broader views, it’s that you want WCK to be everything but what it is – a fighting method. Why? Because you’re not fighting, you’re not developing fighting skills. So WCK has to be something “broader.”

How do you know what I am doing? I’ve stated that I use progressive sparring drills in my practice, and try to put in as much realism as possible. I go beyond just doing forms and chi sau. But that has never been good enough for you. I don’t go out on saturday night to the local nightclub parking lot looking for trouble. Do you? Why do you feel that looking at WCK as a fighting system as well as a method of self-actualization are mutually exclusive? Again, I’m sorry you have such a narrow view of what WCK is or can be. KPM

**Come to Cleveland and bring your cup and mouthpiece (well, maybe leave the cup at home since you’re probably one of those that believes your “knees in” adequately protects your groin! :wink: ) and we can mix it up person-to-person. Video proves nothing.

Its a start. And many here happen to believe that you can tell a lot from video. Why are you so resistant to the idea? KPM

Keith

36

Hello T & Kieth,

Video proves nothing. Nothing.

They “prove” nothing but certainly can show someones body and since WCK uses the body then indeed one can see whats going on from a little clip. One can tell if their tense! One can tell if they use long power. One can tell if they telegraph. One can tell if they bounce. One can tell all kinds of things from watching someone move! Can they use it? Thats what the video does not prove unless they tape themselves against someone is fighting them with good credentials! I agree with that comment! JR

People see what they want to see; they project what they want to believe. If you saw clips of me, just like when you saw clips of those Estonian WCK practitioners I posted, all you would say is “that’s poor WCK”, etc.

Why do you say that? No doubt that after 20 + years of WCK you would not look like those guys! Dont be shy T! hehehe Even if people did say “thats poor WCK” what difference would it make since you know you can use it? Right? BTW! I did not know that they were doing WCK? sheeesh! I just thought it was some odd ball stuff. JR

These things aren’t objective – where you can look and judge it based on some objective criteria determine if it is good or bad – they are subjective (I look good against someone less skilled and bad against someone better skilled).

True but once again one can show his WCK and tell if they are all over the place or have good quality body control going on IMO. Just like when you said: I can issue Inch force from a wide horse, small horse, kneeling and on one foot. I say! Thats cool! A clip would show that! Have someone hold a focus mitt and bang them from all 4 ways while someone tapes it.

See, we have to figure out a way to use the net to help promote more learning from each others experience etc.. Clips can be one way!! You can show how the body generated the power to issue from Wide, Narrow, Single and Kneeling. Ernie is very cool about sharing stuff and I can indeed say I have learned some cool things from it. JR

In person, when you put your @ss on the line, then there can be no question. And whatever my skill level is, it has nothing to do with your skill level – what you can do. If you believe that you have superior fighting skills, then you should be willing to put yourself to the test to see. Not by videotaping yourself, but putting your @ss on the line to see for yourself – that’s my point. I’ve seen for myself; I know what I can and cannot do – I know my skill level.

See, what I get out of this is that you are trying to get people to go out and develop their WCK by full contact “sparring” with others and this is great! Nobody is disagreeing with you and the validity of what you write but where do we go from there now that this has been said? Do we just keep repeating it or do we take from that experience and use it for growth/chat! I know I know! You cant learn from others but from yourself doing it right? Well, no doubt we can all learn from each other and doing it! Someone who has “spar” more with grapplers can relay more info. to us on that versus someone who spar more with boxers etc etc… If we do not do this then nothing positive will come out of all this IMO. JR

Regards,

37

Ernie is very cool about sharing stuff and I can indeed say I have learned some cool things from it. JR

All I can say about him and his clips is that even if he enjoy talking like a JKD freak :wink: …He really reflects…O.K Ernie I won’t tell anything more!..:slight_smile:

38

Hey Jong!

Yeah! Big Ern got the JKD vibe going on but he’s ok! Its comes with living in the LA area! hehehe But! He is willing to put himself out there for us wolves to verbally chew up!

Gotta walk,

39

Jim[Ernie is very cool about sharing stuff and I can indeed say I have learned some cool things from it.]

hey man very cool :slight_smile:

my take on video
simple

if you have good body mechanics , balance ,timing , etc
this can easily be seen of film

just like when you spar some one you can read them visually
see there weighting , if there relaxed , and so on

any good coach can see what there fighter/student/client needs by how they move and relate

like any athlete you can see the harmony of there body motion and how they relate to what ever game they might be playing

so the skill you see is speed , timing .coordination , things of that nature

what you don’t see is the stuff inside there spirit , will, intent and so on

now in a fight [ sparring/sport match ] not a street fight were things get much more real and chaotic , lets say unpredictable .

any miss match of skill can cause many different visual effects , a bum with awkward timing can make a pro look like dirt
2 guys with similar skill levels could get sloppy , since there is such a thin line between what really separates skilled fighters on any given day one can win or lose

it’s a very subjective thing

but not every one looks good on film , even worse if you don’t have good mechanics ,

so you can see skill to a degree on film you just don’t know how that skill will relate in a live environment , since people have high’s and low’s

the best you can hope for a dialing in your attributes , and some luck

back to fight fight vs wing chun sucks vs chi sau can walk on water conversation :smiley:

ps now what would be nice if instead of caring on like the clamptons or what every those fueding hillbilly’s called themselves

would would get into the training methods that bridge the two worlds

but what do i know as soon as i do this i’m a jkd freak :cool:

hey jong pssss my secret keep it hush

40

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
[B]Hey Jong!

Yeah! Big Ern got the JKD vibe going on but he’s ok! Its comes with living in the LA area! hehehe But! He is willing to put himself out there for us wolves to verbally chew up!

Gotta walk, [/B]

were is the love :smiley:

hahaha man it comes down to being effective , who cares what people think

there not going to fight for you !