[QUOTE=nasmedicine;1176587]Of course, but I do not like to mix chi with intention in the context of fighting. Instead I would say it was more like feeling ones Yi = thought/intention without the chi component (however yes they (Yi and Chi) are interconnected “where Yi goes, chi follows”) . And I do agree that it is possible to reach that state you speak of. To be honest that is actually part of our systems poem and the basis of our chi sao/gor sao.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you, let’s take qi as it is.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1176586]Qi cultivation allso directly related to fighting when the qi medirians handling becomes a part of power generation handling and momentum handling.
Visualization lead the qi medirians flow aids the Physical body motion and power generation.[/QUOTE]
If visualization = Yi, then we are on the same Page.
[QUOTE=nasmedicine;1176589]If visualization = Yi, then we are on the same Page.[/QUOTE]
Visualization is the full picture, yi is intention is a point shot.
Running a point shot is Very focus but also narrow.
In fact, WCK biu jee is not ordinary external Style hard spear fingers, but ride on the qi medirians Flow. The big picture is visualization and only at contact the intention applied.
IMHO,
in the old time, when one plays the dummy, it is called massage the dummy or mo Jong. The visualization is a continuous flow , only at the point of issue Jin, an intention is applied.
It is not strike and strike discontinuously as today.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1176590]Visualization is the full picture, yi is intention is a point shot.
Running a point shot is Very focus but also narrow.[/QUOTE]
Yes precisely, we are on the same page I just needed to understand your terminology. To be clear, If I can put it into your words/terminology : {visualization (thought, and proprioception involved)} -> {Yi (targeted intent)} -> {Chi ( summation of visualization and Yi;passively present along with Yi at point of intention}
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1176591]IMHO,
in the old time, when one plays the dummy, it is called massage the dummy or mo Jong. The visualization is a continuous flow , only at the point of issue Jin, an intention is applied.
It is not strike and strike discontinuously as today.[/QUOTE]
I agree that visualization on the dummy is extremely important.
[QUOTE=nasmedicine;1176592]Yes precisely, we are on the same page I just needed to understand your terminology. To be clear, If I can put it into your words/terminology : {visualization (thought, and proprioception involved)} -> {Yi (targeted intent)} -> {Chi ( summation of visualization and Yi;passively present along with Yi at point of intention}[/QUOTE]
Qi evoke by visualization, and evoke intensify qi via focus intention.
Think it as visualization build up a map, intention or yi zoom in to a certain spot. As watching the gps screen.
Other considerations:
Scientific, as we are understanding more about the function of the heart, many scientists believe information processing occurs not just in the brain, but a “heart-brain” and that the heart has enough neurons to process information. We all know the heart emits an electric field (basis of ECG), so do we have any sensing organs to pick up the electric field of an opponent hence reading his intention to a certain degree?
Another interesting medical fact is that some neurons have photo-receptors; and that mitochondrias can be stimulated by light to produce more ATP, which forms the basis of a range of LLLT (low level laser treatment) treatments. Some scientists argue that the photo-receptors are remanance of our plant ancestors; some suggests the body emits photons as a neuro-transmitter.
Fascinating stuff.
[QUOTE=nasmedicine;1176593]I agree that visualization on the dummy is extremely important.[/QUOTE]
Yup. Agree.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1176594]Qi evoke by visualization, and evoke intensity via focus intention. Think it as visualization build up a big picture, intention or yi zoom in to a certain spot.[/QUOTE]
After understanding your terminology I understand what you are saying and I agree.
We are saying same thing just using the terms in different light.
Yes once one can visualize the target area (can be on ones own body or a target on the opponent), the intent along with Yi (presence/awareness) will automatically manifest/concentrate at the target location.
Cheers,
Side note: I apologize to everybody else reading this if they feel like it’s getting a little bit too abstract.
[QUOTE=nasmedicine;1176598]After understanding your terminology I understand what you are saying and I agree.
We are saying same thing just using the terms in different light.
Yes once one can visualize the target area (can be on ones own body or a target on the opponent), the intent along with Yi (presence/awareness) will automatically manifest/concentrate at the target location.
Cheers,
Side note: I apologize to everybody else reading this if they feel like it’s getting a little bit too abstract.[/QUOTE]
Ok . Good..
[QUOTE=nasmedicine;1176589]If visualization = Yi, then we are on the same Page.[/QUOTE]
Since this thread is about Qi, I can open my pandora’s box. 
Visualization requires the function of Yi, but not Yi itself.
True Yi or “Zhen Yi” is evoked by the Primordial Shen “Yuan Shen”, although most of our conscious state we are only aware of our Cognitive Shen or “Shi Shen”. Qi is much better directed by our “Zhen Yi”, and not the everyday awared intention/Yi. The key is to swithch of the brain and turn on the heart, which is written in many TCMA texts.
So while visualization helps, it is not Yi itself.
Now, moving to top level stuff:
If we look at Yi Qi as a horse, Shen is the rider; of course, we become effective when Shen Yi Qi (rider and his horse) works together. But often, the horse become the master and ignores the rider.
But once you becomes aware of Shen, you will realise that if your opponent’s Shen Yi Qi is not united, your Shen can influence the opponent’s Yi Qi as well, much like a rider influencing an opponent’s horse.
From day one, my IYTC teacher GM Wei Shuren had said, “Borrowing the opponent’s force is of low level skills; top level skills is to borrow the opponent’s Yi Qi.” It took me 10 yrs to really understand what he meant.
[QUOTE=imperialtaichi;1176595]Other considerations:
Scientific, as we are understanding more about the function of the heart, many scientists believe information processing occurs not just in the brain, but a “heart-brain” and that the heart has enough neurons to process information. We all know the heart emits an electric field (basis of ECG), so do we have any sensing organs to pick up the electric field of an opponent hence reading his intention to a certain degree?
Another interesting medical fact is that some neurons have photo-receptors; and that mitochondrias can be stimulated by light to produce more ATP, which forms the basis of a range of LLLT (low level laser treatment) treatments. Some scientists argue that the photo-receptors are remanance of our plant ancestors; some suggests the body emits photons as a neuro-transmitter.
Fascinating stuff.[/QUOTE]
very interesting information would you by any chance happen to know which journals these discoveries have been published in? As far as being able to sense another person’s electromagnetic field I honestly do feel it’s possible. All higher order organisms have the ability however the problem lies in the fact that we lack the receptors sensitive enough. Through special training I am still skeptical that we can reach the level of sense that we see in nature. Furthermore I haven’t heard of anybody to successfully demonstrate this nor has it been scientifically documented that anybody has ability. The only things in nature that have these abilities are things like certain types of marine life. Having said all that I really would like to know if anybody has any particular type of training method that they feel can potentially bring these abilities out.
[QUOTE=imperialtaichi;1176600]Since this thread is about Qi, I can open my pandora’s box.
Visualization requires the function of Yi, but not Yi itself.
True Yi or “Zhen Yi” is evoked by the Primordial Shen “Yuan Shen”, although most of our conscious state we are only aware of our Cognitive Shen or “Shi Shen”. Qi is much better directed by our “Zhen Yi”, and not the everyday awared intention/Yi. The key is to swithch of the brain and turn on the heart, which is written in many TCMA texts.
So while visualization helps, it is not Yi itself.
Now, moving to top level stuff:
If we look at Yi Qi as a horse, Shen is the rider; of course, we become effective when Shen Yi Qi (rider and his horse) works together. But often, the horse become the master and ignores the rider.
But once you becomes aware of Shen, you will realise that if your opponent’s Shen Yi Qi is not united, your Shen can influence the opponent’s Yi Qi as well, much like a rider influencing an opponent’s horse.
From day one, my IYTC teacher GM Wei Shuren had said, “Borrowing the opponent’s force is of low level skills; top level skills is to borrow the opponent’s Yi Qi.” It took me 10 yrs to really understand what he meant.[/QUOTE]
Hey John,
Great post. I agree with the information none of which contradicts my viewpoint on Yi. however I don’t have the same background as you so therefore don’t use the same terms (which is the root of much confusion on this forum).
Case in point when I said that visualization = Yi I did not mean that in the literal context, rather I was trying to see if Yi and visualization where one in the same in the context of Hendriks terminology. Great knowledge as usual. 
Cheers,
[QUOTE=imperialtaichi;1176600]Since this thread is about Qi, I can open my pandora’s box.
Visualization requires the function of Yi, but not Yi itself.
True Yi or “Zhen Yi” is evoked by the Primordial Shen “Yuan Shen”, although most of our conscious state we are only aware of our Cognitive Shen or “Shi Shen”. Qi is much better directed by our “Zhen Yi”, and not the everyday awared intention/Yi. The key is to swithch of the brain and turn on the heart, which is written in many TCMA texts.
So while visualization helps, it is not Yi itself.
Now, moving to top level stuff:
If we look at Yi Qi as a horse, Shen is the rider; of course, we become effective when Shen Yi Qi (rider and his horse) works together. But often, the horse become the master and ignores the rider.
But once you becomes aware of Shen, you will realise that if your opponent’s Shen Yi Qi is not united, your Shen can influence the opponent’s Yi Qi as well, much like a rider influencing an opponent’s horse.
From day one, my IYTC teacher GM Wei Shuren had said, “Borrowing the opponent’s force is of low level skills; top level skills is to borrow the opponent’s Yi Qi.” It took me 10 yrs to really understand what he meant.[/QUOTE]
John,
I am asking myself, it is.
Ok for me to response to this direct? Or I rather not talking?
[QUOTE=imperialtaichi;1176600]Since this thread is about Qi, I can open my pandora’s box.
Visualization requires the function of Yi, but not Yi itself.
True Yi or “Zhen Yi” is evoked by the Primordial Shen “Yuan Shen”, although most of our conscious state we are only aware of our Cognitive Shen or “Shi Shen”. Qi is much better directed by our “Zhen Yi”, and not the everyday awared intention/Yi. The key is to swithch of the brain and turn on the heart, which is written in many TCMA texts.
So while visualization helps, it is not Yi itself.
Now, moving to top level stuff:
If we look at Yi Qi as a horse, Shen is the rider; of course, we become effective when Shen Yi Qi (rider and his horse) works together. But often, the horse become the master and ignores the rider.
But once you becomes aware of Shen, you will realise that if your opponent’s Shen Yi Qi is not united, your Shen can influence the opponent’s Yi Qi as well, much like a rider influencing an opponent’s horse.
From day one, my IYTC teacher GM Wei Shuren had said, “Borrowing the opponent’s force is of low level skills; top level skills is to borrow the opponent’s Yi Qi.” It took me 10 yrs to really understand what he meant.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I like that way of describing it,
Thanks John, nice post.
Cheers
[QUOTE=nasmedicine;1176601]very interesting information would you by any chance happen to know which journals these discoveries have been published in? As far as being able to sense another person’s electromagnetic field I honestly do feel it’s possible. All higher order organisms have the ability however the problem lies in the fact that we lack the receptors sensitive enough. Through special training I am still skeptical that we can reach the level of sense that we see in nature. Furthermore I haven’t heard of anybody to successfully demonstrate this nor has it been scientifically documented that anybody has ability. The only things in nature that have these abilities are things like certain types of marine life. Having said all that I really would like to know if anybody has any particular type of training method that they feel can potentially bring these abilities out.[/QUOTE]
The “heart-brain” connection is still debatable amongst scientists, but the photo-receptors are well established. I learnt that during my acupuncture training (I’m certified in acupuncture). I can’t quote the journals but the information is readily available.
[QUOTE=imperialtaichi;1176614]The “heart-brain” connection is still debatable amongst scientists, but the photo-receptors are well established. I learnt that during my acupuncture training (I’m certified in acupuncture). I can’t quote the journals but the information is readily available.[/QUOTE]
I see, my knowledge of acupuncture at this point in time is basic at best. as far as the photo receptors are concerned I will definitely try to read up on it (sounds very cool). Perhaps I can impress my Neurologist buddy with my knowledge (I’m sure he is not aware of these discoveries either, :-))
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1176610]John,
I am asking myself, it is.
Ok for me to response to this direct? Or I rather not talking?[/QUOTE]
Please do Hendrik, I always respect your views, and I anticipate that you will respect mine as well. I also anticipate that you won’t assume what we have or don’t have in the IYTC and KL22 systems.
There are two types of people in a discussion like this:
- People who haven’t really practiced inner cultivation or are very low level at it
- People who have actually practiced qigong and have got to a reasonable level in it.
The first group would either deny the existence of qi and would say that it’s a superstition or would try to justify it by connecting it to modern scientific terms and would say that ancient people would use qi as a metaphor to explain the unknown energy that modern science can explain.
Personally I like to follow the new advances of the modern day science in this field and there has certainly been some progress but I think most of it is just at hypothesis level and at best they can only explain the effects of qi on the matter not the qi itself.