My definition of Qi

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

Typed this up for the internal board and wanted to share.

The first thing you need to realize is that Qi is a jargon term used in Chinese Martial Arts

Jargon= The specialized language of a trade or profession

That throws out the two most common definitions. The first being the common term where Qi simply means breath or air. The second definition has to do more with religion or other phenomena. In this definition, Qi is the intrinsic energy that joins together and exists within all life forms on earth. For our purposes, neither of these terms is sufficient.

Now that we have discounted the two main definitions of Qi (work with me here, there is a point) let us begin to build our jargon term using common sense and excerpts from the martial classics.

Before we can have Qi, we must have root. Root is a simple definition and therefore a good place to start. Root is simply a base. It is the ability to maintain good balance while in a confrontational setting. For a good definition of a base, talk with any high school wrestler (as that is also a jargon term)

Now that we have established root in our practice, we can begin to develop our Qi. Qi exists in CMA when you can place a part of your body (we’ll use hands as that is a good place to start) on an opponent and maintain a line of force from the hand to your rooted foot. Mike Sigman refers to this as the ground path. It is hinted at in the classics:

Qi threads as through a nine curved pearl
Let your Qi sink into the opponent
Where mind goes, Qi follows

All of the above classics both verify and support this definition we are using. The below quote however, does not:

Sink the Qi to the Dan Tien

Why does the contradictory phrase hold so much clout in the Internal Arts world? Well, it’s not contradictory. The center (Dan Tien) unites the upper and lower portions. If you have problem making this “Qi connection” you must look to the waist and legs. Just move your belly around slightly until you “get it” That’s also a reason for the emphasis on correct posture. It’s simply to get the feeling.

So what do we have now? Well, we have a structure that is supported by correct skeletal posture which provides a solid base of attack with minimum effort (pretty “Internal-ish, no?) Problem is, we still can’t fight with it.

Classics also say that the Qi is converted into Jing. Jing is also another Jargon term. Easiest way to think about Jing the transfer of force through the “Qi Structure” you have built. Basically, when you can issue force through your body without compromising Qi, You have Jing. Classics also say:

The strength is rooted in the feet, launched by the legs, directed from the waist, and expressed through the fingers.

The cool thing is, after Jing comes Shen, and I haven’t a clue to that yet. Hell, I’m just starting to develop my Jing.

Well, that’s how I explain Qi. Not too mystical huh? Is it a good definition? Go try it out and see what you think.

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2 corrections

You DO NOT need a root before you have Qi. We have Qi in our body regardless of root. To have Qi in your body you need just one single thing…to be alive.

CM and CMA bot recognise that the order of transformation of energy is Jing, Qi, Shen, Void.

By the way you made 2 other massive errors, and they were quite obviously when you discounted the 2 original definitions.If you had stuck with them you’d have a better understanding of Qi, sorry but its a fact.

3

Cool, I’m willing to learn. This has been about a 4 year adapting definition. Please back up your comments with empirical evidence or tests that I can perform which will produce a consistent result. Please don’t tell me it’s so because So-and-So told you.

4

Ya’ll can argue 'bout the Qi definition, but the fact is that by Water Dragon’s postulate, his own argument is correct.

Funny you should discuss the “dan tien.” I was thinking about that the other day. I’ve always thought how stupid it is to watch people’s eyes or head. If you want to know where somebody is going next, watch their middle :slight_smile: From that I had one of those minorly relevatory experiences about the center being the center no matter what you call it. I felt like the guy who invented the dog door must have felt… “I feel both clever and stupid.”

5

I would have to support Repulsive Monkey as it appears you are attempting to discard the mainstream belief as to avoid ridicule from skeptics and non-believers.

Qi is the life force energy in the human body, and one becomes more accustomed to its sensations and movement as they practice proper posture and maximizing of power.

Tai chi is a means of learning to maximize the power in the body, and you will see that in all postures of tai chi chuan, they are made to make the body in the most powerful position possible. This is not the case in qi gong, as qi gong can be more free-flowing as it is not classified as a martial art but as an energy cultivation.

What is the point? Both are means of becoming attuned to the energy in the body, and one develops rooting through qi gong and tai chi practice, and becomes more sensitive to their body and their qi. They are also becoming more mindful and capable of using intention to direct their actions in daily life as well as in their martial arts practice. This allows a practitioner to direct their qi flow throughout their body, and use it for energy healing as well.

In terms of jing energy, it is manifested through qi and cultivation over time, that is true. Jing also develops into Shen (spirit) as you said, which we also all have, although some more abundant then others. One does not need to have the highest degree of Shen to see spirit in the eyes of others.

Either way, you both make some excellent points, and it is clear that you are on the right track and just need to re-evaluate a few of your ideas, as well as possibly looking into some more chinese medical resources to get your answers. I should make it clear that what I am saying is not my opinion, or did I invent these concepts, I am only relaying what I have learned through my practices/reading and teaching. You are welcome to discard what I say and what Replusive Monkey has said and invest some time into Chinese Medicine research and learn these concepts for yourself without personal bias of western or eastern belief.

Thanks for the post.

  • Nexus
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Ho HO HO

I agree 100 percent

May red assed baboons rape you in your sleep.

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Of course, he is also welcome to study these things and develop the conclusions he has reached: That qi is NOT a mystical life force of some sort.

8

Actually, my training is all about results. My whole Qi thing began when I started getting into the classics. I couldn’t make heads or tales out of it. I asked one of my teachers and he told me that the best definition of Qi in English is momentum. I asked him about breath and vitality and he responded with:

“That good definition for life, not martial art”

And thus, began my search.

9

qi is life’s energy, and many other things

read the huang di nei jing. The Yellow Emperor’s Canon of Medicine.

http://english.chinah.com/tcm/theory-huang.html

qi is the basis of acupuncture and many other things.

qi may be used and expressed for healing and for martial arts, and over 27 other definitions.

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Nice post, Water Dragon.
To be honest, I myself, am somewhat interested in Ki. I am curious to all the definitions of it whether they be scientific, spiritual, skeptical, etc. I do this with religion too.

I meditate obviously, and have been able to find a lot of inner change within my life because of simply being “silent” and returning to myself (if that doesn’t sound too mystical)
But one man’s mystery is another man’s science, so …

Buddhist meditation doesn’t really have much to do with Ki I don’t think. Not in its truest sense, but I’m not sure of the whole definitions of KI anyway.

this might be a good and informative thread.
Keep it up.

Ryu

“One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage.”

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Good post, Water Dragon.

Here are my conclusions regarding qi (there’s a point here, too):

Imagine bringing someone over from rural china and trying to explain to them what “cool” or “hip” meant. This person has never heard these words before, and you have to explain what they mean. The problem is, these words don’t have an explanation. They can mean a certain kind of calm, but a cool guy isn’t a robot. They can mean clever, but only clever in a certain way. It can mean “with style,” but different people have different ideas about what’s stylish and what isn’t.

What it is about Allen Iverson’s style that makes it “cooler” than Larry Bird’s? They’re both damn good players…long story short, certain words are impossible to explain to someone who hasn’t grown up with them.

I think this is the case with “qi.” The only way to truly understand what the word means is to have grown up with it, in which case you’d have been exposed to all of its various implications. I think only a native chinese or someone that has grown up with, or at least spent a WHOLE lot of time with, chinese people will really understand what the word means.

Now, I’m not saying they won’t understand the functions of body, breath, and energy the way a native chinese will, I’m just saying that the word “qi” has such a complicated definition that it’s really not so useful for us westerners to learn it. To us, the many different, contradictory definitions of “qi,” even if they all coming to us from reliable sources, are confusing, because we haven’t grown up with the word.

The word “qi” itself has a very complicated definition. I don’t know it, or at least, I don’t know all of it. Non-chinese can understand the things qi describes, but I don’t think we can understand what the word itself means to the chinese.

Of course, we can make our own definitions of qi, but I worry if we try to understand the classics without knowing what the word meant to the people who wrote them, we run the risk of confusing ourselves.

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Rich Mooney

Its always good to see your contributions throughout these boards. Thanks for your input, I am always glad and eager to read your comments.

Repulsive Monkey.

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from RM to RM

Thanks:)

I feel that anyone anywhere trying to define qi is
not going to succeed.

it may be this or that, and then again, it may not be this or that.

trying to define qi is like trying to show the human mind.

you cannot show the human mind, you can only show the results of the human mind.

you cannot show me wind, but you can show me results of wind.. the billowing of a ship’s sails
the bowing of a tree’s limbs, etc.

the same holds true with qi.

there are a plethora of texts that have to deal with qi, the yang family treatises for one example, papers on hsing i, and bagua also discuss qi in their “songs”, for verification, check out yang jwing mings co-authored books on hsing i and bagua with liang shou yu.

then you have the medical implications of qi, as is found in acupuncture. de qi, the arrival of the qi, when plumbing the points with the needles.

then you also have the external qi healing which I am also known to do, and the qigong or energy work designed to elicit the skill.

qi is like clay, depending on the use you want to put it to, can assume many shapes and uses.

much of the feelings ascribed to qi are also subjective, if you look at the shanghai college of traditional chinese medicine’s series, they have a book on medical qigong, and then also is the work by the practical english chinese encyclopedia of traditonal medicine series, also with a book on medical qigong, then you have Jerry Alan Johnsons seminal work on external qi healing, and also ken cohens work on external qi healing. then there are works outside of the chinese paradigm, such as reiki, and pranic healing.

at the far end is therapeutic touch, which uses the hindu paradigm as its raison d’etre, and calls the life force Prana.

so, while many people may talk and give their opinion of what qi is, the fact remains that
it is for most a devisive issue, and unless you are willing to take the time as I and others have,
over a period of many years in some cases, you will never truly know what “qi” is.

best wishes replusive monkey, I hope to see you when next I come to UK, in May of 02. I might be going to, or near the bristol area. I liked it down there. Neil Genge is good people! if you see him, please tell him I said hello!

RM

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Qi as a concept is yin, Qi actualized in the world is yang. Qi is yin and yang, yin is yang, yang is yin etc etc.

We would only be debating over symantics if we try to give an exact definition everyone is happy with.

  • Nexus
15

OK, here we go…

Nexus, I’m not trying to discount any other definitions for Qi. What I’m saying is, for my purposes, those are invalid. Truthfully I’m pretty single minded in why I study CMA. I’m not concerned with the culture or other Chinese methodologies. The other things may very well exist. I just find them unimportant in studying the fighting aspect of Martial arts.

Rich Mooney. You’re siting a book that is a few thousand years old with no supporting analysis. CMA are a system. This means there should be a step by step process which guides an individual from no skill to mastery. Why should Qi in CMA be any different? Again, if you can provide practice methods or tests which are reproducible, I’m all ears. The Yellow Emperor said so doesn’t cut it with me.

Ryu. I actually need to get back into my meditation. As far as I can tell, the process of quieting the mind allows you to focus better in a confrontation. I’ve actually gotten a weird tiem slowing down effect from this. I’m no expert though and don’t want to comment further.

Mr. Nemo. You understand where I’m coming from exactly. I want to excel in these systems, and furthermore teach my sons. I can’t do that trying to use Chinese terminology. What I need is a method that I can understand and use to reproduce the skills that are available in CMA. To me, it doesn’t matter what I call it, it matters if I can do it. I think the classics can definitely be a guide, but you need to have an understanding of the terminology. Assuming we are dealing with jargon and not the common literal interpretation, you can see the issue.

16

semantics

as long as we are talking semantics:

man is yin, except for the genitalia, which makes him yang.

woman is yang, except for the genitalia which make her yin.

yin is always taking, yang is always giving.

The yang of the male gives forth the sperm
the Yin of the female takes this into the egg.

this union of yang and yin gives rise to the creation of a new life.

in closing it is unfortunate that there is no one definition of yin and yang that is “solid” as that is the nature of yin and yang.

always fluid and changing.

yin and yang: in motion the are separate, in stillness they come together.

rm

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Just curious. How many people in this debate have read the works of Dr. Jwang-Ywing Ming?

His books are so readily available compared to other books on the subject that it makes me think that we are really arguing about his books.

He has done some great things in opening up this discussion on chinese physical culture.

However…as a easterner trained in western physics he has tried to make a connection that may or may not be there. What I mean is the concept of Chi as bio-electrical energy.

Water dragon is trying to argue that Chi is not bio-electrical energy, rather, it is some kind of mechanical efficiency. In most of writings on Taiji it seems that this what the authors are getting at.

And it seems the rest of you are arguing that it is bio-electrical energy.

The classics are at best vague. And as far as I know they definitely don’t make any direct claim that chi=bioelectrical energy.

If Dr. Jwang-Ywing Ming’s books didn’t exist would we be having this argument?

Or would we just have to take the concept of chi as a kind of vague and subjective term? Variable amongst different martial arts.

Also, just curious. How do you guys feel Chi? You are apparently not supposed to feel it directly, but rather manifestations of it only (eg heat, bubbling).

Fu-Pow

http://www.geocities.com/fu_pow/vmrc-halloween-3.jpg

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Too esoteric :slight_smile:

In my mind, qi should be experienced, not talked about. Once you have felt it then you can begin to understand it.

I also think it is one of those things that once you try to put it into a ‘logical’ framework you have already misunderstood it. Experience it, learn how to use it, but don’t try to intellectualise it.

cxxx:::::::::::>
You’re fu(king up my chi

19

I have it on good authority that Dr. Yang is a top level martial artist. I also have it on good authority that what’s in those books is no more than a bare bones syllabus of his teaching. In essence, like most Chinese, Dr. Yang hides the treasures.

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Water Dragon,

From the many things that I have seen you write it would seem that you are looking for something that you may already have and maybe use.

From what little I know there are no western terms that would describe the process, trying to adapt these terms seems to me like it would lead you in the wrong direction for understanding and pratice as evidenced in your posting. They seem to be very mechanistic.

Try this for a start set some time aside from your training and just stand natural.
You must really relax, forget about rooting and all the other stuff just really relax.

When you think you are relaxed have some try to lift your arms up, they should be very heavy. If not then you still need to relax more.

Touch your tongue to the roof of your mouth and relax. The Chinese describe 8 different sensations that people feel. Depending on how relaxed you can get you may or may not feel something. Use the opening in your TC as your chi gung practice.

One of the keys is to really use your mind (intent) to move your hands. If successful they will seem to move up on their own accord. This is very hard and not many are able to really do it but it’s a start.

luck in your training :slight_smile:

bamboo leaf