What I hate about tournaments is......

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
21

i think it would be cool if people did a form demo, and then immediately fought with only the concepts and principles extrapolated from that form.

point sparring is in my opinion slightly silly and continually shows a lack of connection to the style the point sparrer hails from.

tournaments should be a showcase of applied skill.

knowledge is not so much power as is the ability to apply that knowledge.

application of the knowledge would serve to show an art better imo.

anyway, there was one tourney I went to called the Dragons Cup in winnipeg some time ago…probably close to ten years ago I guess, but there was a lot of emphasis on use of style in fighting.

It was probably the best tourney I had been too and i didn’t see many after that.

The last tourney I went to was a political sham. wushu guys with sloppy form were beating out trads who could clearly make them mud, but because they didn’t hold extended poses and didn’t jump around and scream, they lost.

I would have loved to see some fight comp between these two groups to decide what works and what does not.

You gonna have a martial arts contest or is it a cha cha venue?

that’s all I’m saying

22

how can you say wushu isnt traditional? it has punchs and kicks in it. traditional forms have punches and kicks. oh wait its all the jumping and tumbling right? what about fanzi and ditang, those are traditional? its all traditional to me, all based on the same stuff. jsut people like to create these “categories” and “labels” for stuff. it all comes from one place mainly. how is performing something at real speed not traditional? you can still show movements clearly and acuratly if trained well. i see some of these wushu people have lower stances and can kick higher then these traditional people. my chances are on the wushu people that can kick harder and have a stronger mabu, if they train it. but in most cases with “modern wushu” they just go for stretching with non application and non martial intent. maybe thats why people seperate it. IMO. we train everything traditional even the modern stuff, we dont start doing contemporary until advanced levels in out school, by then our foundation and stances are strong enough where it does look good and powerful.

23

Hmm well according to the responses so far, meeting some folks’ tastes will require the following adjustments:

  • Disclaimer: :wink: for those who take life too seriously.

Only Asian competitors can wear silks with frog buttons. Westerners must wear garb appropriate to the same time period: homespun shirts, wool pants and suspenders for sparrers, top hat and tails for male forms competitors, frilly bonnet, corset, ankle-length skirt and button-up shoes for female competitors.

Nobody who is more than 10 lbs. over or under weight will be allowed in the door. No fat a$$es or anorexics allowed.

All bladed weapons should be roughly the same weight as Conan the Barbarian’s sword. If ya can’t pick it up, ya can’t be competing wid’ it!

Concession foods should be appropriate to the “traditional” time period, too. Asian foods will consist of rice, fish heads and cabbage. Westerners will have to settle for salted beef and gristly sausage.

Anyone who does a butterfly kick in their form should be beaten mercilessly, because everyone knows a butterfly kick doesn’t work. (All beatings will be administered by the Traditional Forms Purity Committee, located just outside the South Entrance. Be sure to stop by our gift shop!)

A new category will be added, entitled “War Face.” Similar to freestyle and Best Jump categories, except in this one, competitors are judged on best frozen pose, “taking-a-sh*t” facial expressions and of course, who screams loudest.

OR, we could all approach tournaments in the spirit they were created to promote: a chance to meet people from other schools, show your skills, and exchange knowledge in a neutral forum. In other words, have fun, and at the end of the day kick back, have a beer (or a nice cranberry juice), and don’t worry about the negative stuff you may have seen during the day.

24

stretching with non application and non martial intent. maybe thats why people seperate it.

that is exactly why people with martial know how seperate it.

hyperextension is bad for you. extended posing is false, etc etc etc.

modern wushu is an expression of martial arts, but it is a shadow image done for performance and entertainment.

traditional martial arts are much more abrupt and to the point and are all about martiality. at least, those that haven’t been diluted by performance artistic aspects to please an otherwise unknowing crowd.

in all seriousness, traditional martial arts are not for performance and they wouldn’t attract the thrill seekers and ergo, having forms competitions with traditional is self defeating without the actual fighting aspect.

anyway, I’m not against wushu per se, I think it is one more form of promotion of teh chinese martial arts and in fact there are wushu pracs who do indeed explore traditional martial arts and the martial end of things.

Those people ultimately know the difference even more than naysayers who just diss wushu because of its flowery hands and embroidered legs. :stuck_out_tongue:

cheers

25

I hate tournaments for all the above reasons.
Would be cooler if u had just one fight, at a certain time, like a boxing fight.

26

Would be cooler if u had just one fight, at a certain time, like a boxing fight.

yes, carded matches between competing styles would be a godsend to the traditional martial arts.

oh wait…I think this is called ufc or something like that hahahaha.

Only thing is, even with traditional training, for some reason that crowd hates to be associated with traditional martial arts.

I blame wushu for this and bad musical karate toothpick twirling and ralph maccio and his incessently whiney demeanor and David Carradine and his tv show with his broken english fortune cookie utterances and his extremely poor traditional *ahem…kungfu. :stuck_out_tongue:

Oh, and the typical western mindset which fully corrupted the traditional martial arts and turned them into entertainment long ago.

27

What Kung Lek said.

I intended no disrespect to wushu practitioners by seperating them from the traditional people. This is just how it is in my mind, and I’m only one person.

I figure traditional martial artists also have knowledge of how to really apply the movements from the art in a combat situation. Now, this CERTAINLY does not apply to many people that I know that consider themselves “traditional” martial artists.

I think it’s all a matter of semantics :wink:

Now… as for seeing real traditional forms at tournaments… I agree with Kung Lek. Wushu-ish forms tend to do better because they look much more impressive. Lower stances, high jumping kicks, etc. But for me, on the rare occasion I’ve seen someone perform a traditional form VERY well, I’ve always enjoyed it more than any of the other forms shown… but maybe I look for different things :wink:

Originally posted by Kung Lek
[B]that is exactly why people with martial know how seperate it.

hyperextension is bad for you. extended posing is false, etc etc etc.

modern wushu is an expression of martial arts, but it is a shadow image done for performance and entertainment.

traditional martial arts are much more abrupt and to the point and are all about martiality. at least, those that haven’t been diluted by performance artistic aspects to please an otherwise unknowing crowd.

in all seriousness, traditional martial arts are not for performance and they wouldn’t attract the thrill seekers and ergo, having forms competitions with traditional is self defeating without the actual fighting aspect.

anyway, I’m not against wushu per se, I think it is one more form of promotion of teh chinese martial arts and in fact there are wushu pracs who do indeed explore traditional martial arts and the martial end of things.

Those people ultimately know the difference even more than naysayers who just diss wushu because of its flowery hands and embroidered legs. :stuck_out_tongue:

cheers [/B]

28

well you have a point on wushu looking cleaner and more apealing. and traditional not being very pretty. funny thing is i find traditional just as pretty (touche) as modern cause i appreciate both of them for what they are.

but yeah, SaMantis said it right, its to have fun and meet new people. i agree with that a lot.

as for them competing in the same thing, wushu people winning cause they’re flashier but with less kill, those judges arent good judges at all. a good judge could see the difference between those things. but then again last tournament i went too i think 40% of the stuff was bad.

29

Anyone going to the Wong Fe Hung next month?

I’m going to spar (continous) and chi sau and might, maybe, even do a Bak Mei form.

After competing in San Da I am aproaching this tournament very relaxed and with a spirit of having a good time … I also plan on winning;)

30

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
[B]Anyone going to the Wong Fe Hung next month?

I’m going to spar (continous) and chi sau and might, maybe, even do a Bak Mei form.

After competing in San Da I am aproaching this tournament very relaxed and with a spirit of having a good time … I also plan on winning;) [/B]

im going, but i dont know if to compete. i hear its a 99% southern tournament. since i do northern i will probably just watch this time.

31

Re: What I hate about tournaments is…

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
4) Ambiguous/subjective sparring rules

Every timed format has subjective rules. Because nobody wants to wait around all day for two exhausted guys to finally KO each other after 136 rounds.

32

Shaolinlueb

Technically, being that I’ve focused mostly on Hsing-I the past 3 years, I’m a “northern” guy, too.

Technically again, since my master teaches Ba Gua I should spar in the “Ba Gua” section, but I’m not comfortable with that format so I’ll fight in the general open continual sparring.

My teacher never gets involved in these things so I’ll be an outsider with no inside judges but I always enter these things with the attitude of “make it so there’s no mistake.” That’s harder to do in forms, but in sparring, beat the hell out of your guy and either win or get disqualified.

I’ll see ya there either way.

33

I don’t understand the debate about not doing a form at full speed. If you are entering a tournament, they don’t want to see the slow tai chi style of your traditional form, they want to see the martial art aspects of it. It is a performance, you should practice all your forms at top speed, not all the time, but in conjunction with slower and more refined technical run throughs as well as application. Otherwise, if you can’t put together a set arrangment of moves at top speed, how can you hope to put together an actual fight or sparring match at top speed, picking from the assortment of techniques open to you limited only by the style you’ve chosen to study.
As far as Wushu flair or whatever, isn’t there a place for Wushu and a place for Kung Fu? Unless the tournament is entirely open, there should be seperate categories as they are different in approach and in execution.

34

Originally posted by WinterPalm
I don’t understand the debate about not doing a form at full speed. If you are entering a tournament, they don’t want to see the slow tai chi style of your traditional form, they want to see the martial art aspects of it. It is a performance, you should practice all your forms at top speed, not all the time, but in conjunction with slower and more refined technical run throughs as well as application. Otherwise, if you can’t put together a set arrangment of moves at top speed, how can you hope to put together an actual fight or sparring match at top speed, picking from the assortment of techniques open to you limited only by the style you’ve chosen to study.
As far as Wushu flair or whatever, isn’t there a place for Wushu and a place for Kung Fu? Unless the tournament is entirely open, there should be seperate categories as they are different in approach and in execution.

good post, i agree and have been tryin to say that.

35

Originally posted by WinterPalm
Otherwise, if you can’t put together a set arrangment of moves at top speed, how can you hope to put together an actual fight or sparring match at top speed, picking from the assortment of techniques open to you limited only by the style you’ve chosen to study.

my kung fu instructer didn’t really teach forms, so take my opinon for what it’s worth, but i don’t really see the point in doing forms ultra fast unless your working cardio. when i wanted to work speed i would either work a specific technique over and over (most often actually hitting something, but sometimes in the air) or pick several and try to work combos. i don’t think that being able to do a form fast necessarially helps you move quickly in a live sparring/fighting environment. i think drills, combo work, bag work, and of course sparring/fighting are much better tools.

36

Re: What I hate about tournaments is…

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
[B]

  1. Karate guys with mullets and more patches on their uniforms than a TGIF Fridays employee.

[/B]

It’s called flair!

37

Re: Re: What I hate about tournaments is…

Originally posted by Indestructible
It’s called flair!

Heh, that one really got me…

Here’s a question relating to the opposite of this thread-

What is it about tournaments that you like?

I’ve never been to a Martial Arts tournament (at least not the stuff I see on TV), and I live far from where any are held. Is there anything I’m missing out on?

38

“What is it about tournaments that you like?”

Watching good fighters in a good fight

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What is it about tournaments that you like?

It is at the very least a semblance of community amongst martial artists.

A gathering of similarly minded individuals coming togather to exchange, show and share their arts.

It is a redeeming value of tournaments and gatherings

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LION DANCING…I Hate the LION DANCING