So, I was looking to take some of my students to a tournament in Charlotte and while looking over the rules it states that competitors who want to do continuous sparring MUST also compete in empty hand forms.
Anyone else seen this? I emailed the promoter back asking why.
They have a Novice division of 0-6 months and I’ve got two people who want to spar but certainly don’t have a competition level form to show yet.
thats crap.
I think that if you don’t want to dance around in silky pajamas and want to beat someone up, you should be able to. Go put a hurtin’ on 'em, Oso.
Interesting. My guess is that enrollment in the forms competition in down? Or too many people are enrolling in the sparring and they are trying to dissuade people? Let us know what happens!
I think so too but was very politic in my request for a reason. It is an all kung fu tourney so I was surprised to find that stipulation.
The first 6 months or so of our training only has a short little set called Xiao Si Shou which just isn’t long enough to use as a comp set.
They are probably trying to keep non-traditional people from entering. Sometimes, non-traditional fighters feel it’s their god-given duty to show up and prove they are superior to everyone else, which isn’t conducive to a tournament’s goals of promoting the complete art.
MK, brought up a very good point.
Also, are they charging for entering both? If so, they may be trying to make a little more bank.
They have a Novice division of 0-6 months and I’ve got two people who want to spar but certainly don’t have a competition level form to show yet.
Just give them an easy form to do(like 5 stances form) that won’t take a whole lot of energy. If they’re only interested in sparring, then it doesn’t matter what the judges think of their form work. Is it a kungfu only tournement? The only time I’ve heard of this rule before was a hung gar tournement where they wanted to make sure the competiters were actual kungfu people and not just people who specialize in that particular sparring to win. Do the people competing in empty hand forms have to spar? It would make more sense if it had to go both ways.
Originally posted by MasterKiller
They are probably trying to keep non-traditional people from entering. Sometimes, non-traditional fighters feel it’s their god-given duty to show up and prove they are superior to everyone else, which isn’t conducive to a tournament’s goals of promoting the complete art.
hmmm. i see lots of people go to tournaments then jsut leave after sparring.
MK, that’s a good point I hadn’t thought of. Like I said, I was politic when I asked.
We just don’t start a full, multi road form till right at 6 months.
I’m gonna see what I can do to get it waived. We went to a comp by these same folks earlier this year and did forms and sparring. Hopefully they will consider letting us just spar.
http://hgkfa.tripod.com/2004FallTournRulesNRegs.doc
There’s the rules page.
FTR, I’m not trying to bash these guys. Just want my students to be able to compete in what they want to.
Brad, that’s a good point. They could just do Little Four Hands. It’s short but kinda snappy if played correctly. My experience has just been that the form needs to be long to be considered for place.
Coincidentally enough, it is sponsered by a hung gar school.
Do the people competing in empty hand forms have to spar? It would make more sense if it had to go both ways.
And that’s a great point…but we all know way to many people don’t want to spar, even just continuous light contact.
Let’s go back about 20 years…
At that time, there were NO Chinese Martial Art ONLY events.
Still to this day, if you go to so called OPEN tournaments, and do form, you get stuck in a SOFT style division. Gee…I didn’t know that Hung Gar was soft…
Anyway, to make the event truly a CMA only event, the early ones had the requirement of a mandatory form competition to fight. (there WERE people from non related styles showing up in Karate Gis wanting to simply spar…and that was NOT the point of the event in the first place).
As things grew a bit, there were a couple of CMA teachers that had their big dogs and NEVER trained them in anything but simply did sparring with them. While that is fine for Sanshou or other full contact venues, it put a damper on the light contact sparring. Those guys tended to have little or no cotnrol…so if you were fighting in light contact, sure, you would win your bout on the other guy getting disqualified…while you followed the rules…but you would not be able to continue due to the injury that you got when he got disqualified…
So they used the rule to weed some of those guys out…or make them go into the full contact events anyway.
There was also a bit of reasoning that if you could not do a simple form, you probably were not at a level where you should be fighting yet anyway…
So…there were some good and bad reasons for the rule…
But, if you are attending the event, they are NOT YOUR rules. They are the promoters. If you don’t like them, simple…don’t pay your money and attend.
If you DO attend, then follow the rules. Read them completely and KNOW them.
Unfortunately, there are not any real standard rules in use anywhere in the US that apply from group to group.
Personally I think it should go the other way too.
If you want to do forms then you should be required to spar.
I commend this tournament for keeping it traditional.
As things grew a bit, there were a couple of CMA teachers that had their big dogs and NEVER trained them in anything but simply did sparring with them. While that is fine for Sanshou or other full contact venues, it put a damper on the light contact sparring.
That situation doesn’t really exist in the 0-6 month category though.
My entire point is that I have two people who have been with me for about 2 months and want to spar. They only know basic kicks, punches and beginner’s line drills.
I could teach them a short set between now and nov 13 but there is no chance of them winning, ime, because it is too short. So why compete in something w/ no chance of winning?
There was also a bit of reasoning that if you could not do a simple form, you probably were not at a level where you should be fighting yet anyway…
I disagree with this. We start with basic kicks, punches, deflections/blocks and drills with all of these in combination. This will get a student better at fighting far faster than a form will. And ‘in style’ as well as long as the basics are from the style.
But, if you are attending the event, they are NOT YOUR rules. They are the promoters. If you don’t like them, simple…don’t pay your money and attend.
Indeed. And I’ve mostly decided not to attend because they are also not allowing head contact for beginning adults even though headgear is mandatory and no contact to the face for any division even though face cages are mando for teen and adults.
and ‘traditional’ smaditional. This is why CMA gets such a bad rap.
No real sparring, even in the light contact. Not everyone has to fight full contact but when you don’t compete with a full range of targets then you train w/o a full range of targets and that’s bad for any self defense usage you might want to get out of your training.
bah…****** CMA really ****es me off sometimes…
I’ve mostly decided not to attend because they are also not allowing head contact for beginning adults even though headgear is mandatory and no contact to the face for any division even though face cages are mando for teen and adults.
No head contact in any division??? I’m bummed, the ruleset sucks. these are the same folks from the comp in may?
No face contact period.
No head contact for Beginning Adults.
You mean March and yes.
blah blah blah
I always see the same EXCUSES thrown out to “justify” these sorts of rules… they are just that, excuses :rolleyes:
I’ve been in meetings in four different organizations where this was discussed. The REAL reasons in meetings like this, with closed doors, is to keep the “non kung fu people” out…
Which of course always begged the question of WHY?
Why keep out the non-traditional, non-kung fu people? What are you afraid of?
If your system is so “deadly” and so effective, why do you care if you have to fight another method?
Finally!
Originally posted by lkfmdc
If your system is so “deadly” and so effective, why do you care if you have to fight another method?
Thank you, Coach Ross, for pointing this out! As has been said so often by those people posting on this thread, kung fu, and by extension, those martial arts styles which utilize forms/kata/et al, are far too “deadly” for the lei tai. Of course, this is just an EXCUSE to exclude non-forms-performing peeps from the combative event noted which has obscenely suck-ass rules.
Again, thank you!
Saying that your form is “too deadly” is kind of a lame excuse.
However, I don’t think that is really the argument.
The argument is that people feel that what they train for and what is allowed at a tournament are two different things.
In addition to “tae kwon do style” punches and kicks most kung fu styles have joint locking, sweeps, knees, elbows, eye gouges, throat strikes, knee breaks, etc. ad nauseum
Many of the techniques are designed to inflict permanent damage, not simply submission, on your opponent and it is with that intent that they were and are trained.
In tournament fighting most of that traditional arsenal is thrown out the window. You can’t use it because it wasn’t designed for sport, it was designed for street defense. Different intention.
So what are you left with?
Not much.
Front kick, side kick, roundhouse, jab, hook, straight, uppercut, hip throw, sweep, leg takedown…
You lose the original flavor of kung fu and it becomes kickboxing. It also becomes an athletic contest of who can execute the basic moves more quickly with more power.
But what about the moves that aren’t basic? The sublties that are unique to each style? The techs and strategies that lead your opponent to a really nasty outcome.
IMHO, sparring definitely has its place in training, it teaches a lot of good lessons.
However, I think a lot of traditional teachers fear that if they focus too much on sparring as a sport that they’re students will lose the original concept of kung fu…which is disable your opponent quickly and efficiently ie with the least energy expended.
The “deadly” or “injurious” techniques can be trained alongside sparring but they have to be trained in more controlled and often more inventive ways.
That is to say…they can’t be trained with a “live resisting opponent” unless the intention is to permanently injure that opponent.
Peace.
“I’ve been in meetings in four different organizations where this was discussed. The REAL reasons in meetings like this, with closed doors, is to keep the “non kung fu people” out…”
YES…that is and always has been one of the main reasons for it being there. In regards to Sanshou - as in a full contact venue, I agree that ANYONE that can pay the fee and pass the physical should be allowed.
In the light contact…
First, the way Orgs like NASKA do sparring is NOT how it is done in continuous light contact for most of the CMA events. There is no Hop Hop Tag - BREAK…point stuff. The way it is SUPPOSED to be done is a break only occurs when a competitor is out of the ring, not responding to the situation, an illegal technique or power is thrown, or there is a clinch…that type of thing.
But even if they were the same…WHY should a CMA sponsored event be all that open to non-CMA folks. If it is labeled as an OPEN event, no big deal. Otherwise, for years it has been a detriment to go to a “Karate” tournament and do anything. You had Taijiquan in the same division with Hung Gar, Long Fist, and even Modern Wushu… AND Judged by people who didn’t even do one of the styles…much less have any knowledge of all of them.
The reality is that if all the promoter wanted to do was get money, they WOULD allow anyone in…more registration fees.
There is NOTHING wrong with a CMA event being a CMA event.
The reasons do NOT have to be “being afraid” but can quite simply be a desire to promote and showcase CMA.
the best layed plans of mice and men go out the F-in window as soon as it’s full power, full speed and the adrenaline kicks in
Sorry to be blunt, but the guy who talks about how he can’t use those so called “crippling techniques” in the so called “sport” always turns out to be the guy who when a left hook is thrown, he crumples into a pile and slides across the floor…
Needless to say, if you can’t even spar, lowly old sparring, how can you hope to use the “deadly” crap? :rolleyes: