To those who compete....

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

I am curious to know from those who compete, do you compete in just KF tourneys (if you are Kung Fu) or do you also compete in “Open” Tournaments.

Our school is surrounded by “Hard” Style schools, and there are a lot of “Open” Tournaments in the area. When we go to an open tournament, we notice that A LOT of the hard style schools are using tons of Kung Fu techniques, such as butterfly spins, butterflys, tornados, etc. The way that they are getting away with this is changing the names of the techiques, i.e., log roll, inverted open round kick, and an inverted side kick. I am just wondering what everyone thinks about this, and if you have the same problem!!!

~Wen~

2

I assume you are talking about forms competition? It is starting to happen here too - karate schools are starting to incorporate more wushu-style kicks to flash up their forms.

3

Good, it’s not JUST me seeing this. The hard part I am having about this, is I see a LOT of the schools using them in their “Traditional” forms as well as their creative forms. I don’t understand how they are getting away with this, and why it’s even being allowed. We were at a tournament not to long ago, and 2 of our students were competing in Intermediate Tradition Division. There was a karate student from another school, and he was supposed to be doing a “traditional” form, but he threw a butterfly in one part of his form, and then did the move where you do a front kick, then squat, and come back up, whatever it’s called!! I was TOTALLY UNAWARE that Karate had these techniques in their “TRADITIONAL” forms, and quite frankly, this is starting to **** me off!!!

But, I forgot, they can get ahold of a video anywhere on the internet, and learn the form, and then compete in the “Soft” Divisions. What the hell is going on with this? Why aren’t the judges or promoters doing stuff about it?

Sorry…Just ranting…but this is becoming a HUGE problem. You don’t see a bunch of “Soft” Stylists running out and buying a bunch of Karate forms on video and doing them in the “Hard” techniques.

4

we used to do alot more tourneys locally theres alot of karate tkd here so tourneys are most often open because its a small island the more support the better i guess. but yeah the schools that break away from thier traditional karate roots incooperate some unorthodox elements to thier forms routines, butterfly stuff like you said chinese looking stances anyhow theres a few schools that keep it real, tkd keeps it real and a few karate schools keep it real (meaning what they do is pure) . ba$tard schools theres no telling what theyll do.
back in the day this would trouble me alot more than it does now, i just do what i do and not really too concerned with them.

5

No offence to karate or TKD schools, but I remember this tournament I went to watch, and probably 60% of the karates entrants did the same form (the same thing can be said of tai chi or any other standardised style). Needless to say it got boring very quickly.

I can kind of understand people changing their forms to make them more flashy and try to impress the judges. However, if you do karate, then your form should reflect that.

6

well in TKD (at least WTF) there is no such thing as making up your own form or whatever (or doing it to music as i’ev heard has been done in some tournements), you just do the “traditional” ones (they have been subject to change by WTF so they’r not technically “traditional” but hey..).

So everyone does the same (in the same belt category) and you are judged from how you do the form, your stance, are your kicks correct? Your balance and all that.

7

JoeDoe…
I agree with people changing their forms to make them a little more flashy…but when you are in a traditional division, then stick with the **** form! And if you are Karate…throw in some Okanowin or something like that…NOT WUSHU..

Did you guys know that Ernie Reyes’s West Coast Demo Team (or whatever they changed it to now) is taking their stuff from the Beijing Wushu Team now?? That’s what he says in an article I read last week. He’s basically ran out of ideas, so he’s taking it from the wushu team, to spice things up a bit…WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP!

8

Hmmmm…

Usually when I judge somebody like that, and they are trying to imitate Kung Fu, I just shake my head ever so slightly, and say “KUNG FU LOUSY”!!!

9

Front kick, squat, front kick? Isn’t that a Tae Bo exercise?

It’s quite simple really…everyone knows kung fu rules but they don’t want to admit it. Otherwise, their art won’t be “special” or “unique” anymore. But whatever…if it all boils down to TKD or karate people doing wushu forms which amount to little more than demos on ESPN then I say F 'em and if the general populace is too ignorant to edify themselves, then F them too.

10

wushuchik

I agree - if you are going to modify a form, keep the modifications true to your style. Especially if you are then going to call it traditional.

Apart from that, why does it irk you so much? Are they winning forms comps by adding those moves? If so then the issue really is in the judging.

In the tournaments here (from what I have seen, I don’t really attend them often), I have noticed that adding flashy moves doesn’t really seem to help them much in the rankings. The ones that do traditional forms but do them well still do better. Ultimately, just like figure skating, it is all up to the judges and how they perceive the performance.

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“just like figure skating”

That’s what makes it so messed up.

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That’s why I chose figure skating as an example - judging how well someone does a form is always going to be subjective and it is never going to be fair for the simple reason that different styles have different ideas on what is good.

However, if the forms are standardised and there are firm guidelines on the proper way to do the form, then judging is a little less subjective. But as long as you have people from different styles doing different forms, it is almost impossible to make judging a fair exercise.

13

Another problem I have often found with many MA Competition is that the Judges are not standardized.

Often I hear of Judges Panels being filled with friends of the Organsations Head, or being filled up with some higher ranking MA, that have not yet reached Instructor level.

In short it is a mess.

14

On judging

How does a kungfu guy judge a karate form and how does a Karate guy judge a kungfu form and how do you compare the two and what are these forms even doing in the same competition. I know some karate folks don’t want to hear it, but KF and wushu forms are a he11 of a lot more complex than karate forms, and I Simply don’t see how they can be judged on the same premises.

Kungfu has been getting ripped off by karate instructors in this country since the 70’s thanks to the Bruce Lee craze which brought attention to CMA which, in the mainstream, was non existant at the time. This is one of the reasons some KF schools, as brought up in another thread, have reamained secluded, underground or outside the mainstream of the MA community.

15

I agree completely, but I don’t see how this is at all going to solve anything…just staying underground and out of the mainstreem. Quite frankly, I think that’s BS. You aren’t proud of what you bust your ass to do? I think that’s a load of crap, and besides competition is good against your peers…lets you know what you need to work on!

Just my opinion!

~Wen~

16

It happens everywhere

My old karate master just couldn’t tell between traditional and changed. He has changed our gojuryu karate to almost a kind of kickboxing. He took out the cat stance, invented katas, changed the fighting form to kickboxing style, maniplulated the footwork to shotokan style. Worse, he teaches all these to beginners and says that it is better this way. I can understand if it is his own inspirations to change them for himself. But I would have much rathered he did so for his own progress than to tell beginners that this was the real deal. Sadly, he still puts a sign on the door saying “traditional gojuryu karate”.

There are also other things he did which really ticked me off. But those are more towards the maladministration and ripping off instructors and instructing helpers. Not so much as the martial arts part which this thread is about.

Hence, I left.

17

ok, just out of curiousity here,
whats the purpouse of competing in a tourney , open or otherwise ?
some might consider this in itself to be shallow and just for show .
surely a competition cant judge which style of martial arts is better. So whats the whole point of it ?

hmmn , oh yeah why do wushu guys enter traditional divisions and try to compete against us traditionalists, i never seen a traditional guy go into a wushu division, and also , why do judges allow this.

also why do people who have been training for over three four five six years up enter the beginner division and compete against beginners ,
this tournament thing is messed up somebody needs to clean it up and give it new meaning
apart from all that, its fun. i must admit.

18

"ok, just out of curiousity here,
whats the purpouse of competing in a tourney , open or otherwise ? "

The training beforehand is a good thing. You have to work hard to compete and hone one or two things down as good as you can. If all you do is fighting, it is surely martial but what comprises the ART. If you compete in Form (Taolu), you try to express speed, power, timing, balance, flow, etc… and do it in an artful manner. There is also a measure of self expression.

Such competition is basically the same as a demonstration but you add people who are supposed to be qualified to say how well you did. I often hear people ask WHY compete…but these same people never ask WHY demonstrate. If you do not demo…it is a valid question…but if you do…it is the same idea.

"surely a competition cant judge which style of martial arts is better. So whats the whole point of it ? "

There are things that styles have in common…and then there are things that are special to a given style. There are basics that are in common with all styles. These things can be judged in form. In Sanda(Sanshou, sparring, whatever) the test is can you follow the safety rules and go toe to toe with the other person…and win. In a real sense, what is the point of anything…? But here, if you have trained judges, then you can actually get feedback on what you may not see yourself. In fighting, you get to work with people from other schools, different strategies, styles, etc…

And…bottom line…it is an excuse to meet other people with similar interests, see other things, and have some fun…

"hmmn , oh yeah why do wushu guys enter traditional divisions and try to compete against us traditionalists, i never seen a traditional guy go into a wushu division, and also , why do judges allow this. "

Depends on what you call wushu or traditional. Traditional DOES have some acrobatic moves. There ARE things like butterfly kicks in traditional…but NOT butterfly twists.

As for Modern Wushu, there are ONLY 10 competition routines : Changquan, Nanquan, 42 Taijiquan, Broadsword, Straightsword, staff, spear, Southern Broadsword, Southern Staff, and 42 Taiji Straightsword.

They do have open events but those are the ONLY routines that absolutely go in a Modern event. If a Modern person competes in a Traditional division and shows speed, power, good technique, etc… that are defined for the Traditional division, then they score well …or should. If they do not, it really should not matter because their score should reflect that they were deficient. However, if the judges do not know how to score or are impressed by flash and nothing else, well…you end up with garbage anyway.

It really boils down to knowing and following the rules…they have been posted for the US Wushu Union here…

"also why do people who have been training for over three four five six years up enter the beginner division and compete against beginners "

Because they can get away with it. At US Wushu Union events, you may get away with it once…but not a second time. This is NOT fair…but at open events, there is no policing. They really only want your money.

“this tournament thing is messed up somebody needs to clean it up and give it new meaning
apart from all that, its fun. i must admit.”

Check out the US Wushu Union…that is what it is trying to do.

19

Well this is my problem with tournaments…they are not well organized…especially forms tourneys…they need to specify what forms and have someone knowledgeable to judge a traditional form so crap like 720 kicks are not allowed cause it’s not traditional…that’s creative.

20

First off, if you do Chinese styles and attend Open or Karate events, prepare to be messed over.

It is NOT at all uncommon for such events to send out a call for “All Black Belts” to go to a booth and then draft people on the spot to be judges. They don’t even check the background of those who show up.

Then, the judges are NOT compensated and more often than not definitely NOT qualified to judge Chinese styles at all. When you sit there and a judge in all earnestness asks you what degree black belt you have for a Chinese system..and then looks incredulous when you tell him that there are no belts in what you do…you know you have problems. When you hear a judge ask why a certain technique is in a routine - and he admits that he has never seen the weapon before and then does NOT understand that you have to do things a certain way to get power…well you get the idea.

You also have most of these events making the Chinese styles go to ONE division - Soft Styles…Can ANYONE tell me how Hung Gar or Choy Li Fut can ever be classified as soft? They then have Hung Gar competing in one group with Taijiquan…how weird is that…? The weapons…you have one class…not even long and short…spear in the same group with sword, Taiji sword, katana, …just dumb…and aimed at getting your money.

The competition in San Diego last year was a good example of HOW TO RUN AN EVENT. The rules were posted well in advance. The divisions set. The judges were Chinese Martial Artists…screened and selected before the event.

Modern Wushu people COULD do their thing in a Traditional division…but they would not fair well if they showed flash and no substance. If they did the compulsories, they were disqualified. Inappropriate techniques were deducted for…as described in the rules.

The US Wushu Union (Wushu as in BOTH Traditional Wushu and Modern Wushu) is working on judge’s training and certification… The national event is scheduled for Labor Day weekend in Florida…it is something to attend.