What do you think of Wing Chun in Sanshou competitions?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

Here’s a clip from Beijing 2008, where an International Wushu and Sanshou Competition was promoted alongside the Olympic Games

http://www.iwuf.org/news_video_1.asp?id=404

I’ve never been one for competitions, but I’ve followed the development of Wushu and it’s proposed Olympic status. I can see why so many students would benefit from training to compete in Taolu, Dulien and Sanshou, so isn’t the Olympics where we should be looking towards for our future generations?

Sanshou Competitions are already established and present a decent enough platform for Wing Chun fighters to enter, surely?

What do you think?

2

I think it’s a great idea! I fought in the Canadian San shou championship and won gold in the men’s heavyweight devision back in 2001. I did it for the experience and would only fight again if it became an official Olympic sport and I was young enough to compete still.

3

If you view WCK as a kickboxing method, then it is a great idea.

4

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;880615]If you view WCK as a kickboxing method, then it is a great idea.[/QUOTE]

Why would a Wing Chun fighter have to use a Kickboxing method?

5

Why would a Wing Chun fighter have to use a Kickboxing method?

Um, because, if you’re using WC with gloves on under San Shou rules you’ll be doing a lot of kicking and punching?

A number of WC practitioners have succeeded in events under kickboxing, San Shou and MMA rules. The problems some have had are generally due to an inability of unwillingness to adapt rather than problems with the rules or with WC per se.

To succeed at an elite level in these arenas you will need to cross train and work with different styles of fighters. though IMO only a fool would regard that as something to be avoided.

6

[QUOTE=anerlich;880689]though IMO only a fool would regard that as something to be avoided.[/QUOTE]

It’s just our luck that the martial arts world is full of such fools!

7

The point is they are not “using WCK with gloves on” for the most part – they are kickboxing with gloves on and throwing in a few WCK moves (which mostly aren’t effective) from time to time (WCK kickboxing). That easy to see. They are not predominantly using the movements of WCK, those movements/techniques in the forms and drills but are using mainly nonWCK movements (jab, cross, round kick, etc.), movements not in the WCK forms and drills. That’s why they always end up looking like poor muay thai fighters. For example,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znYE1PoY-AQ

I think kickboxing is great. If you want to kickbox, however, it makes more sense to practice an art where the movements you learn and train are the movements you actually use in kickboxing as opposed to tan, bong, fook, etc.

I agree that crosstraining is great too. If you want to kickbox, you need to crosstrain. If you want to fight on the ground, you need to crosstrain. But it doesn’t make sense to go to a subgrappling competition or a kickboxing cometition to practice your WCK.

8

If you want to do San Shou then just do That why train Wing Chun to compete in San Shou competitions. If I my goal was to compete in San Shou I would not want to learn Wing Chun what good what that do?

9

i’ve tried chi sau and other drills with 12 and 8 oz gloves on it messes with you considerably, pok with boxing gloves is out imo as well as many others youd be restricted to using tan bong fuk imho

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[QUOTE=t_niehoff;880745]The point is they are not “using WCK with gloves on” for the most part – they are kickboxing with gloves on and throwing in a few WCK moves (which mostly aren’t effective) from time to time (WCK kickboxing). That easy to see. They are not predominantly using the movements of WCK, those movements/techniques in the forms and drills but are using mainly nonWCK movements (jab, cross, round kick, etc.), movements not in the WCK forms and drills. [/QUOTE]

This could be true, if only look at WC from a technique POV. But WC has concepts and principals that can be used in any environment. Maybe some ‘techniques’ won’t work because of gloves or rules, but the strategies/tactics and concepts are still there. WCK isn’t just a bunch of techniques or ‘moves’…

11

The point is they are not “using WCK with gloves on” for the most part – they are kickboxing with gloves on and throwing in a few WCK moves (which mostly aren’t effective) from time to time (WCK kickboxing).

I guess my classmates that have succeeded using WC in kickboxing, MMA, and kyokushin rules must be wrong then, unlike you, a non-fighter.

So must Alan Orr and his guys.

Still waiting for you to walk the talk, T. At the moment you’re just demonstrating that you can talk about a subject a great length and still be ignorant thereon.

pok with boxing gloves is out imo as well

Crap.This is a basic boxing parry. Read Jack Dempsey’s book and educate yourself.

I agree you can’t chi sao with boxing gloves, but you can’t fight with chi sao either.

12

[QUOTE=JPinAZ;880832]This could be true, if only look at WC from a technique POV. But WC has concepts and principals that can be used in any environment. Maybe some ‘techniques’ won’t work because of gloves or rules, but the strategies/tactics and concepts are still there. WCK isn’t just a bunch of techniques or ‘moves’…[/QUOTE]

If you look at any martial art – ANY martial art – it is easily identifiable from its movements. We train our bodies. Our bodies perform movements, actions, not concepts. If we have concepts or principles, they inform our movements. The language of any martial art is movement. When you aren’t using WCK mvements, you are not using the WCK language. You are speaking a foreign langange.

13

[QUOTE=anerlich;880850]I guess my classmates that have succeeded using WC in kickboxing, MMA, and kyokushin rules must be wrong then, unlike you, a non-fighter.
[/QUOTE]

No, you guys “practice WCK” (do the forms and drills) and also practice kickboxing where you spar without using much WCK and incorporate kickboxing techniques so that you can perform at that range. As I said, it is easy to see – just look at your movement while sparring and count the WCK movement. You’ll see that you aren’t moving like you do when doing forms and drills, you are moving like kickboxers, doing what they do.

And that’s fine, but it’s not WCK.

So must Alan Orr and his guys.

No, they’re not.

Still waiting for you to walk the talk, T. At the moment you’re just demonstrating that you can talk about a subject a great length and still be ignorant thereon.

Still waiting for your visit – as I said, I’ll be glad to meet with anyone. In person.

But it reaqlly doesn’t mattter – you don’t need any significant skill to see the truth of this. A complete beginner can grasp it if they look at it objectively. You learn to move a certain way in the forms and drills, you train that same way of movement, but when you fight you do something else. How can this be what you have learned and trained? How can this be good learning and training?

If you say that isn’t the case, that you do use the same movement in fighting that you do inthe forms and drills (which obviously you don’t claim, as you would have already adddressed that), you could show it.

Crap.This is a basic boxing parry. Read Jack Dempsey’s book and educate yourself.

I agree you can’t chi sao with boxing gloves, but you can’t fight with chi sao either.

This wasn’t addressed to my comments but I’ll comment on it –

Pak sao isn’t the same thing as what boxer’s do (cuffing). This is what happens when you look at things from a kickboxing perspective.

And yes, you don’t use chi sao while fighting. But you do use the contaact skills that you learn from chi sao while fighting since WCK is a contact fighting method (it really makes great sense to learn and practice contact skills at great length to kickbox, doesn’t it?:wink: ).

14

ok, what am I missing? Do you chi-sao only with your hands, or do you use your bridge? Tan, bong, fook are relying on hands? I must have been taught completely wrong. Dang! All those years wasted!

Jack Dempsey’s book is pure gold.
Everyone should own or read this book-especially for his punch.
I laugh every time I see the term, “Straight Blast.”

15

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;880869].

But it reaqlly doesn’t mattter – you don’t need any significant skill to see the truth of this. A complete beginner can grasp it if they look at it objectively. You learn to move a certain way in the forms and drills, you train that same way of movement, but when you fight you do something else. How can this be what you have learned and trained? How can this be good learning and training?

[/QUOTE]

I gotta agree with the Big T here. Many many moons ago I used to compete in the point tournaments that were very popular at the time. It always amazed me and frustrated me that you could watch the first part of the competition where the Black Belts competed in forms and see some really cool looking stuff. You might see Goju competing against Tae Kwon Do competing against Shaolin Kung Fu. But then later in the day it would come time for the sparring competition and you couldn’t tell these guys apart! What happened to all those cool Kung Fu moves? What happened to those strong Karate stances and punches? They all did the same thing in the sparring ring. I wondered way back then why anyone would spend all that time learning those fancy forms if they couldn’t use it in fighting.

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[QUOTE=t_niehoff;880867]If you look at any martial art – ANY martial art – it is easily identifiable from its movements. [/QUOTE]

Only if you are looking from a technique POV, which you are obviously doing. I don’t think we can even have a conversation here on a WC forum because, frankly, you really don’t seem to undersand WCK.

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;880867] We train our bodies. Our bodies perform movements, actions, not concepts. If we have concepts or principles, they inform our movements. The language of any martial art is movement. When you aren’t using WCK mvements, you are not using the WCK language. You are speaking a foreign langange.[/QUOTE]

What are you even talking about? What is a ‘wing chun movement’?? Are you talking about the techiniques like Taan Bong Fook? What supports these movements? Answer: the concepts/principals.
Sorry, but you’re wrong - WC isn’t just a bunch of movements. I can use WC concepts with boxing gloves on or off. No duh, some of the ‘movements’ don’t work, but the ideas of center line, body structure, 2-line, gate thoery, etc still remains. Ok, so I can’t use a fook with gloves on, so does that mean I can’t use WC because I can’t use a few techniques?

It’s funny, you come here saying what is and isn’t WC, how would you even know? It’s clear why you think someone would be speaking a foreign langauge, you don’t even know how to say hello with WC…

17

[QUOTE=anerlich;880850]I guess my classmates that have succeeded using WC in kickboxing, MMA, and kyokushin rules must be wrong then, unlike you, a non-fighter.

So must Alan Orr and his guys..[/QUOTE]

Here’s the problem. When boxers, BJJ, MMA, and MT fighters fight, they look very much like they do when they drill and spar.

Most WC, including Alan and his guys, look very little in fighting like they do when they are doing their WC drills. In my opinion, most of any success they have comes from their crosstraining, rather than their specific WC training.

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[QUOTE=JPinAZ;881029]Only if you are looking from a technique POV, which you are obviously doing. I don’t think we can even have a conversation here on a WC forum because, frankly, you really don’t seem to undersand WCK.
[/QUOTE]

We can’t have a conversation because you are dealing in fantasy (on many levels) and I in reality.

Athletes practice movement, regardless of the athletic activity. You don’t do anything physical except through your movement. No movement, no martial art. The movement that WCK practitioners learn and train is WCK movement. This is true for all martial arts.

What are you even talking about? What is a ‘wing chun movement’?? Are you talking about the techiniques like Taan Bong Fook? What supports these movements? Answer: the concepts/principals.

Your body can’t do a concept/principle – it performs a movement. Tan/bong/fook are actions, they are movements that have a specific objective. Throwing a ball isn’t a concept, it is a movement, a skill (a movement with an objective).

Sorry, but you’re wrong - WC isn’t just a bunch of movements. I can use WC concepts with boxing gloves on or off. No duh, some of the ‘movements’ don’t work, but the ideas of center line, body structure, 2-line, gate thoery, etc still remains. Ok, so I can’t use a fook with gloves on, so does that mean I can’t use WC because I can’t use a few techniques?

All your theories are nonsense, fantasy. If you are not using WCK movement, you are not using WCK. If you are not using boxing movements, you aren’t doing boxing. The movements are the “tools” of your art. You guys like to kid yourselves into believing that while you can’t use the tools of WCK in fighting, that you know and “understand” WCK.

It’s funny, you come here saying what is and isn’t WC, how would you even know? It’s clear why you think someone would be speaking a foreign langauge, you don’t even know how to say hello with WC…

I’m sorry, what do I need to do – steal some forms, make up some history, call myself grandmaster, found a lineage, come up with a nonsensical theory to “know” what I am talking about? :wink:

It is easy to see if someone is boxing or not or if someone is wrestling or not or if someone is doing judo or not – you can look at their movement, and see if they are doing the things (the movements) they learn and practice in their sparring. Simple. It’s so simple that even you should be able to see it.

19

I think it is fair to say that if one is training in WC at a intense level, that this will be seen in what they do in their fighting actions, up to a point. The goal is to never perform WC. And this is where I see the problem today. If you go on youtube, all you really see is practitioners trying to use WC, performing tan sau’s, bong sau’s, chain punches, etc…, the problem with this is WC is NOT a application art. It is a training system, the drills and forms teach us body mechanics and attributes (facing, fast stable footwork, straightline punching, structure, efficency, short power, etc…), the drills are not meant to compete with, nor are they meant to fight with. It is the attributes we gain from the training that we use when defending ourselves, so it is I that is moving, punching, kicking, not the art of WC. The application of it is totally up to the individual, and IMO no two practitoners (even from the same lineage), should not look the same when using what they have learned from the training.

A old story about WSL, most have probably heard this before, but he was fighting in a beimo match, and the opponent had his head in a lower level position, WSL brought his knee up and hit his opponent with it, ending the match. He was chastised by his fellow practitioners for not using “WC technique”, he replied by saying that he used the closest weapon to the nearest target, that is Wing Chun. The techniques bring alive the concepts and prinicipals that WC teaches us, but economy of motion dictates to us that we only use what we need from the system to get the job done, and to not be a slave to it.

As far as the question this thread askes, I do not think it is possible to use WC in san sau comps, as it is always the individual practitioners that are using anything they have learned. WC is not meant for comps, not because it is too “deadly”, rather because it is limited in it’s application and not designed for such a purpose. San sau, like all "fighting, is a comparison of combat skills btwn two individuals looking to find how good they are. Self defence is different, it is unexpected, with no fore knowledge, and much more dangerous. WC is designed to teach us how to efficiently defend ourselves, finish the job fast and get out with the least amount of injury, not to trade blows with someone, to score points or to win approval from the crowd. Different environments, different needs. This is not to say that competiton guys can’t defend themselves, off course they can, but this is not the purpose of their training.

James

20

[QUOTE=sihing;881123]I think it is fair to say that if one is training in WC at a intense level, that this will be seen in what they do in their fighting actions, up to a point. The goal is to never perform WC. And this is where I see the problem today. If you go on youtube, all you really see is practitioners trying to use WC, performing tan sau’s, bong sau’s, chain punches, etc…, the problem with this is WC is NOT a application art. It is a training system, the drills and forms teach us body mechanics and attributes (facing, fast stable footwork, straightline punching, structure, efficency, short power, etc…), the drills are not meant to compete with, nor are they meant to fight with. It is the attributes we gain from the training that we use when defending ourselves, so it is I that is moving, punching, kicking, not the art of WC. The application of it is totally up to the individual, and IMO no two practitoners (even from the same lineage), should not look the same when using what they have learned from the training.
[/QUOTE]

Another great example of trying to explain why you can’t use the things you learn and practice – in this case, your theory is that those things you learn and practice are never meant to be used in the first place!! Brilliant! Spend years, decades, doing forms and drills, practicing movements that you will never use. That makes absolutely no sense – and you won’t develop any “attributes” that way.

The “attributes” only matter in using our tools, our movements – what does it matter if a boxer or a wrestler has good “attributes” if he doesn’t have a boxer’s or wrestler’s tools (skills)? Good technique (movement) not only uses attributes but maximizes them. You develop good technique from practice, from repetition of movement.

Of course it is up to the individual, and no two will look the same, but that is true of boxers, wrestlers, MT, BJJ, etc. Yet, they all move the same way in application (fighting) as they learn and practice.

A old story about WSL, most have probably heard this before, but he was fighting in a beimo match, and the opponent had his head in a lower level position, WSL brought his knee up and hit his opponent with it, ending the match. He was chastised by his fellow practitioners for not using “WC technique”, he replied by saying that he used the closest weapon to the nearest target, that is Wing Chun. The techniques bring alive the concepts and prinicipals that WC teaches us, but economy of motion dictates to us that we only use what we need from the system to get the job done, and to not be a slave to it.

The story is silly. Who says knee strikes aren’t in the WCK arsenal?

Closest weapon to the nearest target is not WCK “theory”. Not only that, but that “theory” itself makes poor sense. Nor does or can “economy of motion” – another nonWCK “theory” – dictate anything we do. Where do people come up with this crap?

The only thing people seem a slave to is nonsensical “theory”.

As far as the question this thread askes, I do not think it is possible to use WC in san sau comps, as it is always the individual practitioners that are using anything they have learned. WC is not meant for comps, not because it is too “deadly”, rather because it is limited in it’s application and not designed for such a purpose. San sau, like all "fighting, is a comparison of combat skills btwn two individuals looking to find how good they are. Self defence is different, it is unexpected, with no fore knowledge, and much more dangerous. WC is designed to teach us how to efficiently defend ourselves, finish the job fast and get out with the least amount of injury, not to trade blows with someone, to score points or to win approval from the crowd. Different environments, different needs. This is not to say that competiton guys can’t defend themselves, off course they can, but this is not the purpose of their training.
James

It’s not a question of whether or not it is “meant for competition” – the issue is whether if we have fighting skills we can use them in a fighting environment, including competition. And obviously, as long as the rules of the competition don’t prevent us from using our skills (as putting a wrestler in a boxing match would, for example) we should be able to use them. The rules of the sanshou competition impose outside (noncontact) fighting, so it will “look” like boxing or kickboxing and not WCK.